Mind Of Man: Where All The Good Guys Are
Posted by: John DeVore
Filed in:
guys
11:00AM, Wednesday September 23rd 2009
Women always seem to ask me where all the good men are, as if these near-mythical dudes are hiding behind bushes, chained up in some vampire’s basement, or are just rare and elusive, like the snow leopard. Normally, I have to resist responding, “Maybe the good guys are just avoiding you.” But the answer to this frequent, lovelorn lament is simple: The good men are right under your nose. And that’s the damn truth.
Life is too short to be afraid of ruining a friendship, especially if there’s a chance you could be more to one another ... Friendships are as fluid as romances; they can end as suddenly as they can begin. In many ways, they’re overrated. You know what’s not overrated? Love. It’s awesome.
That’s right, ladies. The good men you pine for are right there, all up in your grill, listening to your bellyaching, patiently enduring your inability to manage your own flamboyant, capricious romantic expectations and dreary reality. These good guys are co-workers, classmates, and, most importantly, friends. You officially have my permission as a relationship expert with a Ph.D in Broken Hearts from the University of Feelings, Emoburg campus, to fall in love with your male friends.
I blame your gender, after all, for inventing what this site refers to as “The Friend Zone.” It’s not a “zone.” One loses weight in a “zone,” or tells time there. Or learns a dark lesson about human nature during a twist ending. No. “The Friend Zone” is actually a gulag. The Bermuda Triangle. A cruel little exile. Right now, there is a man in your life who feels you in his teeth, but who walks around with an “F” for “Friend” seared onto his forehead by a glowing-red iron you keep perpetually cooking in the furnace of your heart. You cannot think of him “that way.” At what point did he go from potential dating material to platonic bestie? Possibly the moment he started remembering your favorite alcoholic drink, instant messaging you about “Mad Men,” and listening to you drone on about your thighs, again. Because love is intently listening to someone repeat themselves.
This dude adores you and you are denying yourself potential joy because of some imaginary rule. The heart is a frontier full of peril and plunder, and you should not be afraid to explore what lies beyond hastily built fences.
I’m not saying men and women can’t be friends. We totally can. I won’t confirm the famous lesson from “When Harry Met Sally,” which remains smug Baby Boomer treacle. I don’t want to sleep with all my female friends. I’ve thought about it, but I don’t think that’s gender-specific. Just human curiosity. So do it! Hook up with your dude friend. Life is too short to be afraid of ruining a friendship, especially if there’s a chance you could be more to one another, like epically cosmic lovers worthy of your own constellation in the night sky. Friendships are as fluid as romances; they can end as suddenly as they can begin. In many ways, they’re overrated. You know what’s not overrated? Love. It’s awesome.
We’re talking about the meaning of life here. And it’s to find someone whom you can grow old, fat, and ugly with. Our romantic rituals revolve around complete strangers negotiating for sex, then attempting to become friends. It’s as if our society demands there’s a dating you and a real you, and a relationship happens when two people agree to abandon the mutual lie. Cut to the chase. Friends already know how to play, laugh, and forgive each other. Sex isn’t a performance; it’s play. It’s giggling on the kitchen floor because you couldn’t make it to the bed. It’s not caring that when you’re aroused, your nose sweats.
Two of my longest relationships were with women whom I had been friends with. I loved them both, initially from afar. In both instances, we stepped off a cliff together without looking like the Fool in most tarot card decks. We took a risk, molted out of our friendship, and transformed into something else. And there was that moment of recognition, where we both said “screw it,” took a risk, and realized that you can’t win big if you don’t gamble big. And a shot at conjugal and emotional bliss is quite a prize.
The first time, we were in the middle of a “Friends” marathon, and we took a break so she could shower. She came back with wet hair, and I had never seen her without make-up and when she plopped onto the couch, I kissed her. We both freaked out: She stormed into the kitchen; I paced in a circle. Then we decided to make out some more. It helped. The second was a friend who proved to me she was no princess at a party by shotgunning a can of beer. I immediately told her that I was falling for her, and she told me to wear a helmet. She kissed me, our quiet garden of a friendship suddenly a wildfire.
I wouldn’t say I’m friends with these women; we broke up for the reasons people break up—changing priorities, the mean little pianos life drops on your head. Maybe we would have drifted apart regardless. We’re not friends now, but I don’t regret giving it a shot. Kisses are the only things you can steal and never have to give back. And at least I’ll have those until the day I croak.
TheFrisky.com is part of the Turner Sports and Entertainment Digital Network
effing hickster
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:05 am: [report]
I don’t mean to sound gay, but John, I love you man.
xifeng882
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:14 am: [report]
Thank-you!
*sam*
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:15 am: [report]
JDV, this is probably the best advice I’ve read from you. I’ll be marrying my best friend in the coming months, and I can’t tell you how awesome that is. We were friends for FIVE YEARS before we took that leap, and now we’re getting married!! (we’ve only been dating for a year and a half).
Ladies, I *know* it’s a terrifying thought to risk losing such a good friend, but, it’s SO worth it!!! Trust me!!
SCRMOM
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:21 am: [report]
Great article! My husband and I were friends long before we started dating.
SCRMOM
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:25 am: [report]
@*sam*: Congrats on your upcoming wedding! I couldn’t imagine dealing with all the stuff that life throws at you without my best friend/husband by my side.
retro chic
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:25 am: [report]
My friends reeeaaallly KNOW me, and I KNOW them. That’s intimacy right there. When you discover you want to carry that further… it’s awesome – having someone know you, and you, them – inside and out.
Kati-Anne
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:26 am: [report]
All together now! “Get out of my friend zone and into my pants”!
Jessalyn
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:26 am: [report]
Okay, maybe the new question should be “Where are all the John DeVore wannabes?” (Because obviously, there are no substitutes; only imitations that wish they were the real thing.)
“Kisses are the only things you can steal and never have to give back.” Love it - thank you for being such a witty, honest voice of reason, John DeVore!
VsegdaOdna
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:27 am: [report]
While that’s all well and good, I know for me, the friend zone is when I’ve gotten to know the person well enough to know I can hang out with them and enjoy their company, but they have certain quirks I couldnt deal with in a S/O. I have one friend in mind particularly who I initially had a crush on the first 6 months we knew each other. However, as time went on and I got to know him better, I realized he did things I didnt care for, such as how he talked about himself. That’s something as a friend, Ive built a filter for when he talks, but not something I would want in a boyfriend.
Other times, there is just no physical attraction towards the male friend, nor has he grown attractive over the course of the friendship (as I had happen w/ my last boyfriend…who I no longer talk to. Id rather stayed “just friends” looking back).
*sam*
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:32 am: [report]
@scrmom: thanks! It’s only going to be at the courthouse (LONG story) for now, but I’m still really stoked! :D
Frederica Bimble
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:40 am: [report]
Give me a break - just turn it around and women go through the EXACT same thing with their male “friends.” In other words, you can’t say the “friend zone” was “invented” by women - both sexes treat each other the same way. It is human dynamics and has nothing to do with whether you’re talking a man or a woman.
Enough with “man advice” or “woman advice” just:
(1) like yourself;
(2) take chances and if it blows up in your face, occupy your time with making yourself a better, more interesting person who is happy and content with YOUR life;
(3) The only person in your head is YOU, Mr Devore, no one else. If you’ve experienced a “friend zone,” then it is because YOU put yourself there, just like anyone else who moans about not being romantically involved with a friend.
(4) Make yourself the sort of person you’d like to date and that person will find you;
(5) Any rational person would find it hard to believe there hasn’t been a woman in YOUR life who liked you and YOU turned her down because she was “too clingy” or “too needy” or whatever.
(6) Also, just because a guy listens to someone’s problems and orbits them hoping for something to gel between them, doesn’t mean the woman is going to find him SEXUALLY attractive. If you’re going to have a relationship with someone and go for someone who is your “friend” but doesn’t give you the feeling of passion of any sort, then you’re settling on someone just to keep from being alone.
(7) Golly, how old are the people on this site? I can only imagine up to and including the late 20’s, maybe early 30’s depending on life experience. The comments on here make me feel “old,” indeed….....
Surprisingly Sweet Aftertaste
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:45 am: [report]
I have been reading “The Mind of a Man” for the past couple of months. It has provoked many a conversation but I never felt compelled to comment till today (I even had to register and I dislike signing up for things). Today I was reading the “How Do We Avoid The Friend Zone” and it totally depressed me. Made me a little testy to be truthful. Thank you to the counter and validating my belief that any good relationship worth having develops first out of a friendship.
With that I have to declare that I may be falling in love with John DeVore…
skywalk
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:49 am: [report]
@VsegdaOdna: I’ve always had the same problem I’ve been friends with some of my guy friends for years 25+! So I know them soooo well that there are things I know about them that I know there is no way it would work and why waste the time and hurt his feelings. I’m not talking about dumb superficial stuff, I’m talking has a bad ex (with a kid) I don’t want that crap in my life, can’t keep a job, I’ve already seen that controlling side to him in other relationships, don’t like the way he treats his mom, etc… I mean I was hanging out with my husband a few months before we got together as just friends, but after you’ve known someone a long time its gets harder to see them more than just friends. I typically have been in LT relationships over the years ,so I hang out with my guys all the time (90% of my friends are guys) and most of the time I’ve been in relationships then when I’m single they are all over me and I’m like NO WAY. But I try to nice about it, I tell them dating me and being my friends are two different things and we may be we are not as compatible as you think.
So John your point is well taken and you can’t just dismiss men or women because you are really good friends with them, I just think that the longer you know someone the harder it is think of them as just friends. Luckily for me I met my husband like 4-5 months before we ended up dating, but if both of us didn’t end relationships just after we met, we may have gotten to know each other so well (or thought we did) and wouldn’t have thought it would work out years later. Maybe it just the quality of male friends I have.. LOL
LunaLena
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:49 am: [report]
“But the answer to this frequent, lovelorn lament is simple: The good men are right under your $#@% nose.”
Wow. That’s the best dating advice I’ve ever seen anyone - man or woman - give to women. And then JDV gave the best dating advice I’ve ever seen anyone - man or woman - give to men: “there was that moment of recognition, where we both said “screw it,” took a risk, and realized that you can’t win big if you don’t gamble big.” That right there is exactly the reason I’ve been in a very happy, stable relationship for a year and a half now.
amandabear
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:52 am: [report]
The moral of this story: I need more guy friends.
As for the friend zone… the only time guys really get shunted into my “friend zone” is when there’s just no physical attraction or they have certain qualities that I find annoying but tolerable in a friend, but would be completely crazy-making in a relationship.
effing hickster
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:53 am: [report]
@Frederica: -1 for lack of sympathy.
clearbluesky
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:10 am: [report]
This is by far the best article I’ve read on this site so far. I always see my friends making the same mistake of thinking that love has more to do with lust than with trust. I will forward this!
Humble Bee
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:13 am: [report]
I’ve been hesitant to date my co-workers. I can completely see myself dating them, but at the same time I always tell myself that i don’t “need a man!” and I’m better alone. BUT then when I talk to them I get all queezy inside, they are such gentlemen. Always giving me compliments, making me blush and laugh. I’ve just been avoiding dating all together, I keep telling myself that falling in love is for weak people. :(
slip
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:14 am: [report]
Mr. DeVore: Word.
Slip
effing hickster
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:16 am: [report]
@Humble Bee: Co-workers IS sensitive territory. Non-work friends is less dangerous.
Humble Bee
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:28 am: [report]
Then I’m never going to meet anyone because I’m at work 24/7! seriously. I leave my house at 6am, get to work at 7 and don’t come home till 8pm.
Then after that, I’m too drained to go to a bar or anything “cool” like that. I HATE bars anyway and clubs. Maybe on weekends I could essentially meet someone, but I do admittedly spend A LOT of time with my family. Like I said, falling in love is for chumps. (Or at least that’s my excuse not to date).
HitOrMissJudy
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:31 am: [report]
Thank you, John Devore! None of my friends will believe me on this, but you’re dead right. Plus, if you’re close enough, he’s already seen you at your worst, so you can cross that anxiety off your list immediately.
brandyalexander
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:32 am: [report]
Oh, John, this is amazing. Thank you.
effing hickster
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:32 am: [report]
Just don’t do it at work, unless you want to be part of the workplace “Days of Our Lives”. Believe me, I’ve seen it happen more than once.
retro chic
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:32 am: [report]
The majority of my best SOs and ex I met at work/work functions, which began as friends. I wouldn’t take back any of it – but I might not do it ALL the same way again given the chance. True, eh: it’s tough rowing when you’re in it, and esp after. Mostly they were true friends, tho.
FrzKey
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:35 am: [report]
Uhm no. My guy friends are my friends for a variety of reasons but unfortunately me wanting to sleep with them isn’t even close to being one of them.
jgd1208
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:37 am: [report]
You’ve given me hope. Also making me want to rethink that branding iron… so true!
Humble Bee
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:50 am: [report]
@effing Hickster,
Thats SO true. There was this couple who would constantly fight RIGHT in front of my door. One day they were laughing, the next they were crying, and I’d just be kind of like. OOOKay, can I get through to my office… Turns out I heard the girl in the restrrom crying on her cell saying “he’s not gonna leave his wife” Then I ran back and told my co-worker! It was so juicy. AND I definitely don’t want that to be me! I’ll stick to meeting people at batting cages and go-karts.
Shasta
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 12:11 pm: [report]
Mr. DeVore:
This article serves to ask more questions than it answers and begs for a deeper exploration of the following question:
“So. What makes a relationship different from a friendship?”
You say that Friendships are Overrated but Love is Awesome. Why is Love Awesome? And what kind of love are we talking about? I love my friends. I love my brother. But it’s not AWESOME.
Friendship-based relationships sound like arranged marriages. They, too, are based upon mutual compability, values and goals, which isn’t that different from a friendship.
Romance/Love is about the Chemistry. Feeling IT. The unexplainable spark that makes you want to give a “performance,” elevate the mundane safe relationship, talk endless with your FRIEND about himm, obsess over what to wear, analyze every word you said and dream about the next time you’re together.
I realize that all passion/chemistry fades so why not forge an intimate relationship with a friend, but it makes me sad to think I won’t have the passion. Even if it will only be a memory.
You are right that life is short. I would add that life can also be awfully ordinary. I’m looking for a little less ordinary. If only for a little bit.
BedRocka
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 12:12 pm: [report]
JDV ... Puppet Master!! go ahead Bawse!!! JDV for prez!! You are a Wordsmith!!
Mainer
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 12:53 pm: [report]
I’ll tell you one problem with dating friends. For the most part, John, I agree with you. Significant Others and Friends are only separated by sex. All the qualities of a friend must be in place with a S/O, you just get the benefits. That’s why Friends With Benefits is the ultimate relationship. ANYwho, to my point:
We all have circles of friends - everyone talks to everyone else; about life, romantic relationships, sports, etc. So when you date someone within that circle, everyone is involved. At least when you date someone your friends don’t know, they are not hearing all about it from anyone but you. Sure, they hear your side of the story, how things are going, but they only get your side. She’ll do the same with her circle of friends - she’ll talk about you. When everyone is friends, including the person you’re banging, everyone is in your business. They hear one side, then go to hear the other side. Then, heaven forbid there’s a fight, some people have to take some sides, some other sides, and it just becomes one giant mess. I don’t like people all up in my business like that. I tried dating a friend once and it just went to #&@$%. Then you not only lose THAT friend, but you lose the friends who sided with her to begin with and everything gets awkward and weird.
Anyway, just my two bits.
Gnat
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:09 pm: [report]
I’d have no problem “hooking up with my dude friend.” Unfortunately, all my male friends are either married or gay.
Morwen
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:13 pm: [report]
I know where the good guys are. They are every saturday rolepaying in my living room (Dungeons & Dragons and things like that). But honestly, after dating two of them -and involuntarily kicking them out of the group afterwards-, I don’t think making out with a firend it’s such a good idea.
However, my flatmate just told me that awesome post sounded like written by one of my best friends. Oh my, not again.
johnnybravo
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:49 pm: [report]
Man I understand this problem have a woman I have loved for over 15 years and told her once how I felt and wham got the I just dont see you that way talk. We are still friends but I must admit it like torture ever time I meet the new Mr Right now. Thanks for a great article.
C.Munro
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 02:33 pm: [report]
As a guy who’s been stuck in the friend zone more than a few times, I have to say I’ve come to appreciate it. Oh sure, it sucked when I was younger and couldn’t understand why some girl I was totally crushing on apparently thought I was a eunuch.
But now I realize that no matter how much I like a woman, if she doesn’t “feel me in her teeth” too I don’t want her. I’d rather stay friends with her and date someone who actually is attracted to me.
And some of the other posters are right; Guys do the same thing. I’ve friend-zoned plenty of women in my life, probably for the same reason I’ve been friend-zoned. If there’s no spark of sexual attraction, there’s no dating.
I do think this is a great article, though. Too many women ask that question, when what they should really be asking themselves is “Why am I not attracted to any of the good men I know?”
Shasta
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 03:07 pm: [report]
@C. Munro - GREAT point.
Too many women ask that question, when what they should really be asking themselves is “Why am I not attracted to any of the good men I know?”
SummertimeFirefly
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 05:05 pm: [report]
Good article, but I’m with some on here in that I don’t have any guy friends I’d want to date. Having already developed relationships with them, I know those things that I couldn’t deal with in a partner. Bottom line: my guy friends are wonderful friends, but they’re just friends for a reason.
writergirl
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 05:12 pm: [report]
Oh, man…now I feel awful. I hate articles that make you confront unknown guilt….it’s like going to church and the preist’s sermon is specifically on the one sin you committed that day.
datingdad70
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 05:53 pm: [report]
Guys: Listen to this article and take away from it that it’s not your job to make her fall in love with you. Don’t waste time looking for a wife by going on a one night stand. Have a few ONSs for fun, but hit ‘em and forget ‘em. The real treasure worth your time is the woman who is a great friend. When you’ve decided which one of your longtime female friends has the right stuff, then go for it. If she gives you the “you’re just a friend” routine, don’t give it a second thought.
Women make it all much harder than it has to be. Your job, guys, is to not waste time and effort on some woman who can’t figure out that “bad boys” are losers and that the nice guy friend is the one she should be all hot and bothered about.
Don’t settle. Play if you want, but don’t put out a dime. After all…if you must pay to play, you may as well just go buy a hooker’s time…it’ll probably cost you less per hit! Women make it about “paying tribute” to get their attention, so strip away the nonsense and realize that it’s just socially acceptable prostitution: You buy my X number of roses, jewelry, dinners, etc, and I MIGHT have sex.
Nope…for anything worth your heart, stick with your female friends. And if she freaks because you tried to step up your relationship, then cut her loose…she’s not mature enough to figure out what’s good.
I found mine, and spent a heck of a lot less time and money on the way to having her then did my buddies. Now I’m the one who’s laughing with the awesome woman at my side.
Best of luck….
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 06:03 pm: [report]
I am textually attracted to so many of you right now.
Shasta
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 06:14 pm: [report]
@PepperJack CheeEEEse.
Penny for your thoughts? Though they’re worth so much more.
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 06:22 pm: [report]
I’m like the penny slots. All you need to do is give me a pull and you’ll win every time.
Molly Jean
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 06:29 pm: [report]
I guess a big takeaway for me is that men seem to be more willing than women to risk things (like friendships) for sex. But I kind of already knew that.
The other big takeaway: our dating culture is riddled with all kinds of problems, contradictions, etc. My best friend of a couple of years (a man) surprised me by asking me out. Long story short: I flipped & we didn’t speak for years. What’s worse? Even though I didn’t want to be with him, I was jealous (& I’m not normally) when he started dating someone new.
See, I didn’t realize it then, but my biggest problem was that I had been (subconsciously) conditioned to believe that dating & attraction involved high heels & hoop skirts (or something). My friend had seen me in running shorts & tanks (all sweaty). We did chores & errands together (not lunch or dinner). Looking back, I should have been flattered that he was attracted to me despite seeing me “unkempt” but it all kind of mortified me. I can’t be the only one who feels this way. Which means we have problems.
Dating is a relatively new concept in the history of humans so I think my generation (& a few others before mine) are floundering to try to figure out wtf to do/how to be around each other. Add that to the myriad of other gender issues floating around & it makes for some real hurtful, confusing situations.
Sorry this post is so long. But I think the issue has some really serious underlying implications. And I think in 20 years cultural politic scholars/students will be reading articles like this in their classes to make sense of this period. No pressure, though, John DeVore.
canadiancutie
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 07:29 pm: [report]
The friend in question smokes and has a girlfriend. I could overlook the fat factor but really, they are friends for a reason.
canadiancutie
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 07:30 pm: [report]
C. Munro, I’m sorry, you’ve met women - as in, more than one - who were not attracted to you? Where in God’s name do you live?
_jsw_
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 07:38 pm: [report]
John, that was a wonderful and expressive column. I hope it
works on Ameliainspires some of your readers to see the possibilities in one of their own friends.Shasta
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 08:05 pm: [report]
@chEEEse
I have no doubt that I would hit the jackpot if I pulled your one-armed bandit. Sin City all the way.
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:07 pm: [report]
@shasta: Thanks.
EmmayElle
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:47 pm: [report]
@uberkin—you really need to grow up.
cherikee
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:56 pm: [report]
This is great, but it really isn’t just about guy friends. It is about guy “best-friends”, the ones you hang out with all the time and do things with that you both enjoy. THAT is what makes a great relationship. Great article.
ChocoBoo
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 05:47 am: [report]
JDV> I’ve only been reading your stuff for about a week now, but this was SWEET!
I’ve got to admit though that alot of us women also get stuck in the “cute like my little sister”/friend zone as well! At the end of the day, I still believe the biggest threshold between the friend-zone and the love zone is sexual attraction.
My (now) husband was my best friend for 1 1/2 years, but we came more because I didn’t just feel him “in my teeth”, I felt somethin’in my pants too
It helps, I’m just sayin….
skywalk
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 06:01 am: [report]
Look whos back and he’s all over this site!!
sweetsdjc
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 08:25 am: [report]
This post is so true. Well put John. I met my best friend, FW, my junior year of college through a mutual friend. I was 3.5 years into my 4 year relationship with a shlub who didnt deserve me. FW apparently hated me. 3 years later on a trip to San Francisco, after being there for each other through #&@$% dates, broken hearts and lots of hooking up (never with each other tho) we kissed. A nice, sweet, soft kiss. I had never been attracted to him before, but after that kiss? 3 years of people making comments about how we should date all rolled into one MASSIVE attraction for my best friend. We’ve now been dating for 4 months (exactly!) and it’s the best relationship I’ve ever been in. I cant imagine ever NOT dating a friend again.
SamanthaH
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 08:53 am: [report]
this is not a one-sided problem. girls can be dumped in the friend’s zone and be overlooked as potential date-ables as well.
my best friend is a guy and after 2 years of friendship i tried to take it to the next level with him and was rejected. it took awhile for me to get over it and now we are again really great friends but that’s all that it will ever be.
he can tell me what songs he wants played at his funeral, problems he has with his roommate, and his plans for the future, yet somehow this emotional intimacy isn’t enough.
explain this one to me, mr. john devore. i am the counterexample to what your little story above tells women to do. it doesn’t work.
C.Munro
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:00 am: [report]
@ canadiancutie:
Don’t be sorry. I’m not.
Sure, I’ve met plenty of women who weren’t attracted to me. I’ve also met plenty who were. That’s life. It can be disappointing sometimes when you feel a connection the other person doesn’t, but it’s not that big a deal.
And for the time being, I live in Dallas. I did seem to do much better in Austin, though ....
_jsw_
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:10 am: [report]
@SamanthaH: There has to be chemistry, and if there isn’t, the friendship won’t make the jump to relationship. The chemistry has to be mutual. I don’t think JDV tried to imply that every friend can be a lover, just that you shouldn’t overlook a friend just because they’re a friend. I’m sorry it didn’t work our in your case, but you might be much luckier the next time around.
karmakaze
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:13 am: [report]
I’ve been with my ‘best friend’ for 4 and 1/2 years. I took a major risk and so did he (really, I was a mess when we met) and we couldn’t be happier!
And as for some of my other guy friends, one of which I had a crush on for a while, after knowing him for a couple of years, he’s become more like a little brother to me.
spatula
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:20 am: [report]
I have only had one relationship where we weren’t friends first (and i’ve had all sorts of boyfriends, i’m a serial monogamist). It’s always just sort of happened, but I always end up dating my friends!
“Right now there is a man in your life who feels you in his teeth” OHMYGOD i just died.
xifeng882
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:32 am: [report]
I kind of wonder if this is supposed to make me nervous. I’ve always been of the impression that there is a reason why people are best friends rather than in relationships. My S/O’s best friend is a girl he went to grad school with and he’s currently trying to convince her to move to New York. Normally I wouldn’t flinch because I feel like if he wanted her he would have made a move awhile ago, but now I’m starting to wonder if I should be on my guard, especially since he happens to be very uncomfortable with the fact that my best friend is a guy… Any thoughts people?
_jsw_
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:38 am: [report]
@xifeng882: I don’t know if it’s necessarily bad, but it’s not good. He’s uncomfortable with your best friend, and yet he’s trying to bring his good friend to town… almost as if to give him someone to go to when you’re with your friend. At the very least, it’s hypocritical for him to chastise you when he also has an opposite-sex best friend.
Either there are trust/security issues that need to be worked out ASAP, or this is probably going to go nowhere but down, unfortunately. Just MHO.
lalaland
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:45 am: [report]
“Kisses are the only things you can steal and never have to give back.” Thank you Mr. DeVore
ChoJinn
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 10:20 am: [report]
Yikes - in a long series of great articles that might be your best.
strawberrymoonshine
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 10:27 am: [report]
The flipside to this is the “friend with benefits” zone that so many females fall into. I mean real friends, not just f**k buddies. He tells you all of his dreams and insecurities, you hang out together, you go out on the town together, he is attracted enough to you to enjoy having sex ... but doesn’t want to date you because (well, he never really offers anything more than “we’re just good friends.” I’ve even had friends who were spending 3-4 nights a week with their guy but “weren’t dating.” Then, these same guys ditch the girl who buys them thoughtful birthday presents, listens about their problems with their dad, picks them up when they’ve drank too much, and has passionate sex with for a younger, pretter, bitcher, arm candy doll.
So, please, don’t pin this all on the ladies. It happens both ways, unfortunately!
antnego
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 03:17 pm: [report]
A man who ends up in the “friend zone” does nothing to warrant attraction from the opposite sex.
He tries to please everybody. He doesn’t like conflict. He’ll never tell her what he actually thinks because he doesn’t want to risk “upsetting” her. He listens to all her problems because if he thinks he does, she’ll see what a great guy he is and have sex with him. He does everything for her, and yet, demands nothing in return for himself. He denies sexual attraction to her, rationalizing it by “not wanting to ruin the special friendship.” He fantasizes about her at night, and never makes a move, because he is scared of rejection. He tries to be different than those other “jerks,” and yet never gets any play from the women he wants to be with.
He also doesn’t live his life to the fullest. Instead he looks to women for approval and validation of his worth. His mission is to find “the one” to make him happy, instead of creating happiness in his own life. He really believes all the sappy romantic comedies are true and models his behavior after the hapless schmucks he watches on the big screen.
In short, he doesn’t act like a man. He acts like a guy with his junk cut off. Also comparable to a little boy and/or wuss.
Karishma723
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 04:36 pm: [report]
John DeVore.. you are amazing!
DancingGeek
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 07:13 pm: [report]
Alas I too have felt a guy in my teeth and been put into the friend zone, it really does suck. JDV another awesome article, I saw yet another woman post her love for you- you make us all swoon!!
majicksand
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 07:35 pm: [report]
I have several guy friends that I could never date for reasons others have mentioned. Certain traits can be overlooked in a “buddy” that would drive me bats in a BF. Jealousy for instance. My friend doesn’t get jealous about where I go or with whom, but I’ve seen him with women he’s dated. Those women could barely go to the bathroom without a round of 20 questions. I just couldn’t deal.
On the flip-side, I married my best guy friend. Our spark took a minute to grow into a bonfire, but now it’s blazing. I didn’t settle this time. I found the right guy—right under my #&@$% nose.
onewriter
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 12:06 am: [report]
John, this was a beautiful article. Well said. Thank you. It’s not a topic I would normally think about either, but it’s most definitely interesting and you are a very astute writer. Thanks again.
stelllathediver
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 02:02 am: [report]
amen! I met my boyfriend in 3rd grade and we were close friends up until 2 years ago, and we’ve been together ever since
Countess Mariska
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 07:56 am: [report]
JOHN DEVORE THANK YOU SO MUCH. I completely agree, especially after reading that vile “Friend Zone” piece and being in a snit for the rest of the evening. I DESPISE the concept that friendship and love are two completely separate things—your line about total strangers starting with sex and then attempting to become friends hit the nail on the head. Love is impossible without friendship. If the person you say you love isn’t also your great friend, then I’m sorry to say this but it’s not love it’s just a long-term hookup.
SouthOC
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 09:57 am: [report]
The cool thing about jumping into the friend zone is you have a pretty good idea of who they really are.
My wife and I were very good friends for about a year before we started dating. I’d go out with other women and wind up comparing them to her.
We developed a deep respect (and affection) for one another, and we’ve now been happily married for 15 years.
Ladytron2000
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 02:33 pm: [report]
Sorry John, once they’re in the “friend zone”, forever in the “friend zone”.
Never the two shall meet.
If I wanted to “date” my guy friends, I wouldn’t have ever considered them “just friends” in the first place! (ie; I like/love them as people but I’m just not attracted to them in that way.)
Countess Mariska
wrote on September 26 2009 @ 07:19 am: [report]
poor Ladytron2000, incapable of ever moving past a first impression!
mysticjeanie
wrote on September 26 2009 @ 12:47 pm: [report]
OMG I just registered just to say what an AMAZING article!!!
I literally fell in love w/ your writing!
Too bad I need for male friends—I feel like they’re too intimidated by me :/ Could also be that I possibly do intimidate men…I wish there would be a brave male soul out there who would come up to me and say “hi” w/ a cute grin and relaxing smile for once… <3
But I’ll keep hoping. I’m still young. I’m 23…
nufan_genesis
wrote on September 27 2009 @ 01:42 pm: [report]
dude, that’s awesum-possum. i’ve had guy friends who think that way, and i always push ‘em away. maybe i’m wrong.
dharmagg
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 02:50 am: [report]
Nice article
*sigh* I would love a man to, “grow old, fat, and ugly with.” At 36, I already know the hotness isn’t going last. Where is that man who can be lured in while I’m peaking…but then not care when it goes downhill?
JDV, he’s not on my couch watching a Friends marathon. Honestly. It would have been great to meet, “the one,” a la When Harry Met Sally, maybe in high school or college. These days I secretly laser-scan every man I meet, ring checking, chemistry-testing, wondering. Not because I’m mercenary…but I’m looking for my best friend with whom there’s “zoom.”
You said you’d tell me where the nice guys are. I don’t know him. He’s not at church, the playground, or match.com
Suggestions?
hereshestands
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 05:12 am: [report]
What a brilliantly written article. I totally agree, I see these people that have been friends for ages and wonder why they aren’t getting together. I suppose I am really lucky to have such an awesome guy and we were friends before we started going out.
Oh and I LOVE this line:
It’s giggling on the kitchen floor because you couldn’t make it to the bed.
Ladytron2000
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 10:56 am: [report]
@Countess Mariska,
Poor me? Hardly. Consider myself very lucky as rarely am I ever wrong about first impressions!
Also, very, very fortunate to be surrounded by many male friends I truly value for who and what they are WITHOUT complications.
TheUnusualSuspect
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 01:17 pm: [report]
John,
This is a beautiful article. You have taken everything I could ever hope to say on this topic and boiled it down to its essence. I’m a guy who’s spent so much time lost in the Bermuda Triangle that is the Friend Zone that I don’t remember anymore what it was like on the outside. Ladies, please take a look around and see who’s there. You might be pleasantly surprised!
Jacqueline
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 11:08 pm: [report]
Today I was talking to a guy friend about how a friend of mine got left alone in the middle of downtown at one in the morning by some guy and I kept saying how guys can be such jerks. His response: if chivalry is dead, it’s because women killed it. He mentioned that the nice guys always get looked over and for the most part it’s true. That being said, if the attractions not there, it isn’t going to work. You can’t force chemistry and if the girl doesn’t feel it then it’s time to move on.
Now if you’re like me and have plenty of time on your hands look up Dwayne Perkins Being friends with women. He explains the good guy friend that likes you situation perfectly.
Alek
wrote on September 30 2009 @ 04:53 am: [report]
Fortunately it seems more and more women are waking up…
Sure, a lot are still whining and repeating cliches like “where are the good men?”... But fortunately I’m seeing a trend of women finally getting it.
The irony is that… I as a man, know that
1) 90% of the male population are generally good guys.
2) Women (generally) keep dating/attracting the worst 10%
3) Then they ask where the good guys are, lol.
Its all about taking personal responsibility. The question isn’t “where are the good guys”... The right question is “what can I do to meet the good guys” or “what is it that *I* am doing to keep bringing idiots into my life”
Its soooo funny, for me looking at things from the side… Like i’ll see my female friends/relatives pass by like 10-20 guys who are their exact/ideal mate, go straight to jerk-straight-out-of-hell, and then cry to me “where are the good guys”... Hmmm, Jane you stepped over 20 of them to get to John the bat-out-of-hell, lol :D
Now… I do have understanding for this phenomen… Biology isn’t so easy to overcome… MEN DO IT TOO!!
Good Men keep chasing after the worst 10% of women, simply because they’re looking at superficial criteria, letting that primitive part of the brain determine what to be attracted to (primal vs. brain-based attraction).
So I have no compassion for either… If you keep attracting shallow women, its because your main criteria for women is that of a caveman. If you keep attracting dumbass-guys, its coz you’re using cavewoman criteria…
Gotta make a choice… Hey, it would be perfect if one person offered both right? Those primal-chemicals of the rogue, while having the logical-brainy-good attributes of a geeky-PHD…
But life is a game of trade-offs…
Dani429
wrote on October 2 2009 @ 05:39 pm: [report]
My best friend is one of the good guys and I told him how I felt. It was extremely scary to jump off that ledge, but I just did it. He felt the same way in that moment and we kissed, but a few days later he said that he made a mistake. After a few years of on and off communication we’re best friends again. And I still think he’s the perfect guy.
nothingshocksme
wrote on October 4 2009 @ 12:20 pm: [report]
That was a sweet article to read today. Thank you. I wish my friend could risk jumping off a cliff with me. It’s too scary for him because I’m 10 years older than he is. We’ve been good friends for 2 years, known each other for 3 and have had a steamy on again/off again physical relationship but mostly we’ve been friends. He can’t stay away from me and I believe he really cares for me but can’t seem to get past whatever he views as not cool about our age difference. It sucks but it is what it is.
silvergurl
wrote on October 6 2009 @ 11:35 am: [report]
@summertime—i agree. i don’t have any guy friends i’d want to date. i have one who i think is cuter now than i did before, but we have vastly different views on way too much. plus, he’s more like a brother to me. so yeah, i need some wayyyy cute guy friends so i can make out with them
silvergurl
wrote on October 6 2009 @ 11:37 am: [report]
@canadiancutie—you beat me to the chase. i was about to ask @cmunro where the heck he lived. he could bother cracking a smile though
C.Munro
wrote on October 6 2009 @ 12:03 pm: [report]
You mean like this?
silvergurl
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 08:36 am: [report]
i guess that works ^.
Moonlight Shadow
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 02:00 pm: [report]
I have a best friend who wants to b more than a best friend but i dont feel any sexual attraction to at all. This is starting to kill our friendship because now if he even has a sip of alcohol while he’s around me he jumps me and tries to kiss me and its like kissing my brother.
nothingshocksme
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 03:08 pm: [report]
I know. I can’t imagine taking it to the next level with any of my guy friends. They’re just friends for a reason; there’s no sexual chemistry. It’s a bitter pill to swallow but I’ve been on the other side of that so I understand. I lusted after a guy who saw me as just a friend. Sucks but you can’t really change how someone feels about you. It’s hard on a friendship when that pressure is lurking and you know they’re just waiting for an opportunity that will never come. Don’t waste your time slamming yourself against a door that won’t open for you; find one that’s unlocked or wide open and you’re actually invited to join the party going on inside.
angel001717
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 03:50 pm: [report]
it is obvious when a friend can be more than a friend thank you very much. maybe im just more of a risk taker or less dense than other women/men. if its a possibility i will go for it. but if he doesnt want you back or if there are things about him that would not be good for you in a romantic relationship then turning a friendship into a romantic thing is obviously not a good idea.
its really quite simple (though i know it can become complicated)
angel001717
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 03:52 pm: [report]
@jsw - who would
?
_jsw_
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 03:56 pm: [report]
@angel001717: I dunno. But I know people would refuse to try to turn a friendship into a romance so as to not destroy the friendship.
onewriter
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 06:18 pm: [report]
Well, if it’s not THERE…why would you try? It would feel one sided. That’s no fun!
angel001717
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 08:58 pm: [report]
eh i’d choose to turn friendship into a fu@*ship anytime!
_jsw_
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 09:18 pm: [report]
@angel001717: Let me know if you need more friends.
onewriter
wrote on October 8 2009 @ 11:24 pm: [report]
rofl!!!
cooldad
wrote on October 16 2009 @ 04:36 pm: [report]
I always thought a gf should start as a friend. I ruined two good friendships, but the third time was the charm
ColinAC
wrote on October 16 2009 @ 04:56 pm: [report]
Great insights John! I was just telling this to a girl at dinner the other night. Men need to step up and figure out how to build a friendship with a woman then move it into the friend zone then get out into the romantic. Women need to let down their grandeur illusions of the perfect man / relationship. It takes work to get that.
The one thing I disagree with is the not being friends after the relationship. If it doesn’t work out, yes, take a time out, but in my opinion, why would we ditch someone that ultimately knows us and us them? It’s months of wasted time and pushing someone out that could go back to a caring, understanding friend. A friend that could even help us find a better match. There is no reason to not be friends at the end, it’s just an ego match of who’s fault it was or what didn’t work. Forget about it and move on. It just takes a bit more communication (Yes more work) to re-establish the friendship, but Life is also to short to cast out the people that have taken the time to get to know us.
Dikastes
wrote on November 11 2009 @ 02:30 pm: [report]
Well, this struck painfully close to home.
It’s nice to know there’s someone out there preaching for the fools. I’m not alone in suffering through the Friend Zone.
Now, if only I could get out of it.