What’s So Wrong With A Woman Being Selfish?

TCU1793
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 11:38 am: [report]

uh oh… here we go again! lol. I wanna have kids someday but I completely agree with the point that there are more ways to be a selfless person. And that’s all I’m gonna say because I’m scared of people in regards to this topic. haha!

Queen Frostine
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 11:43 am: [report]

Thank you. I think you said it best when you said “Life isn’t one size fits all”.

AgentBeryllium
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 11:55 am: [report]

I agree. As women we are not depended on having a spouse to look after us anymore and frankly I still don’t want kids. I am happy enough by myself with my cats and I am not even sure if I want to be married. There are no guarantees. I remember something that a woman(married to my friend) once said to me that was very UGLY.

She said that since she had her children at a young age that they will be grown and out the house by 50. (I’m 32 and do not have children yet and she said)‘Well, you’ll either be too old to take care of them or you won’t have then at all.’ Or something to that effect. It was her tone and she made it sounded like I wasted my life away. I was polite enough not to scream ’ Well at least I didn’t waste my life as a Meth Addict!) Which was true, but still upper hand was needed in this situation. Who said I wanted kids? I saw her kids and I didn’t like them that much. Thought they were little jerks. I told her

Personally I think she was jealous because I was happy and content living on my own and she was miserable, griping about her children and husband.

We as women need to take care of ourselves. I really wish people would get off my back about getting me married! It just bugs me.

Nerdette
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 11:59 am: [report]

I know a few childless spinsters that have devoted their lives to helping others.  Is a childless spinster that teaches generations of people and inspires them to do better—are they really selfish?

Great post!

Perceptible
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:06 pm: [report]

I have been married and I have children, and I TOTALLY support a woman’s decision to not marry or not have children. Both are HARD and not always 100% fulfilling. Of course, I couldn’t love my children more if I tried, but I would be lying if I said I didn’t sometimes fantasize about the things I could do if I didn’t have them. I can’t really travel, or spend money on myself. I certainly can’t go partying at night (or even stay out late, the little buggers get up at 6:30 AM – even on weekends!!!). Like anything else, it is a lifestyle choice, not a rule or a path everyone should follow. If you don’t really, REALLY want it, don’t do it and be happy with your decision.

writergirl
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:07 pm: [report]

I don’t automatically think if a woman decides she doesn’t want kids that she’s selfish.  I really don’t.  Everyone has their own life to lead and sometimes kids fit in, sometimes, they don’t. 

I honestly believe if a woman is smart enough to realize that she doesn’t want children for whatever reason—fun as defined above, body image, or whatever the reasons were listed in the comments of the other article—then she is probably SMARTER than some woman who decide “OH!  I should have a baby!” and end up HATING, absolutely HATING their life.

Why do women turn on each other?  Because it is innate.  And before anyone jumps down my back for that statement—I never used to agree with it either.  My husband, his brother, his best friends all used to tell me too how competitive women are with each other and I never believed it.

Until I became a mother and was forced into the debates surrounding the issues that go along with motherhood. 

Stay-at-home mom versus work-outside-the-home-mom.  Organic mom versus non-organic mom.  Breastfeeding mom versus formula feeding mom.  Kangaroo mom versus stroller mom.  Mother versus non-mother.

No matter where you fall in the categories above and the others I haven’t mentioned in the interest of brevity (haha) SOMEONE is ready to tell you how you are doing it wrong.  That your choices are wrong.  That your child is going to be screwed up because of said choices or that your life is going to be lacking because you don’t have a child.

I think collectively, women are just less open-mindedand more judgemental.  More rightous.  I don’t know why.  Maybe it goes back to prehistoric times when women were the gatherers and if you veered away from the group it meant your death. 

It is hard to give an answer as to “why”.  Maybe in a hundred years, someone will be able to.  Until then, the “Mommy Wars” will continue.

resullins
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:27 pm: [report]

Wow, I like the article. I think, however, that the bigger point is why are women so incredibly judgmental of other women? I know there’s the stereotypical cattiness that all women feel, but really? I can’t say that I don’t judge people. In fact, I probably judge people WAY more than most. But I can only judge them relative to my own opinions, and I know that… so I will never condemn them, even if I don’t agree. Don’t tell my fiance, but I am sometimes wrong.

I can’t wait to have kids, and get married, and I hope I’m in a position to stay at home for at least a little while and raise them… but I think that women who choose other paths can be right, too… who am I to judge?

waitingwillfill
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:31 pm: [report]

I feel that many moms (of any description) are, on the surface, slavish martyrs and therefore try to APPEAR selfless. But when you get right down to it, having kids is an incredibly selfish and narcissistic thing to do. That perspective often gets me in hot water with other moms. I have a preschooler and another on the way, and I feel that having babies is a totally self-indulgent experience. It may not be the freewheeling kind of indulgence, but the satisfaction is there nonetheless. To quote Neil Gaiman: “The price of getting what you want, is getting what once you wanted.” Perhaps those with kids who are angry or jealous are only so because they realize that what they have, isn’t what they truly wanted after all.

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:34 pm: [report]

I don’t think women are more judgmental than men. But I do think women’s identities get tied up in their caretaking roles more than men’s do and that’s why they get offensive.

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:35 pm: [report]

Er, *defensive. But offensive works in this case, too, HAHA.

likeOMGkbye
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:36 pm: [report]

@writergirl, well said! Like you I never believed or had it occurred to me that women were really competitive until my boyfriend brought it up several times during drama that I occurred (yeah, I was a sorority girl so sometimes it was drama city). Your view on the mommy wars (“Organic mom versus non-organic mom”, etc) really helped solidify the competitiveness women do have. Good to know its even broader than “non-parents” vs parents.

MissJennLynn
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:52 pm: [report]

Well said, Jessica. I know this won’t put the argument to rest, but hopefully it will curb some of the animosity…

Sonic
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:53 pm: [report]

@ Jessica Wakeman:  Please marry me!  I always want to say something in response to some of the remarks commenters generalize about or defend using flawed logic, but you are always at the ready with a humane, logical defense.  THANK YOOOUUU!

LostInStars
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:55 pm: [report]

I honestly don’t find anything wrong with being selfish. I think too many people associate the word selfish with a negative thing. I really don’t think it should be. One of my good friends is constantly in situations she doesn’t want to be, and when I ask her why she agrees to things she doesn’t want to do, “Well, I don’t want to be selfish..”

And I tell her, you’re the only one that’s going to take care of you, sometimes you have to come first. If people are going to be holding grudges just because you say no a few times, those aren’t friends you should really be keeping. Obviously I’m not saying she (or anyone) should blow everyone off in favor of “me-time” but sometimes, yeah, the rest of the world can wait.

And I -completely- agree with this post, it was a spot on response to the uproar of the last article, haha.

I Go To 11
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 12:55 pm: [report]

@writergirl, I couldn’t agree more! I tend to avoid message boards on motherhood because I can’t stand the huge arguments I’ve seen on some of them about breastfeeding vs. bottle-feeding, in particular. (As long as my child’s being fed, we’re good, as far as I’m concerned.) I’ve always wondered if maybe the reason women are more nitpicky with one another is because we’re more detail-oriented than men? I don’t know. At any rate, sometimes the outright nastiness of some women competing with other women shocks me. I just don’t get it, and I try to avoid it whenever possible.

jld117
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 01:08 pm: [report]

@Jessica Wakeman: Thank you for writing this! My husband and I do not have children - not saying we won’t ever or we will ever - we’re both just on the same page about the fact that we don’t feel the need right now, and we’re happy with each other where we are. We happen to be mid 30’s and are constantly getting the “when, when, when” from family, and we do feel that we are in a different place than some of our friends (the ones with kids), but again, we’re ok with that. I am going to pursue more post-graduate education in the fall, and my mother’s reaction was, “Back to school, AGAIN?” When asked what was wrong with that, she said, “I just don’t see any time for motherhood.” I feel that the woman being selfish in this situation is my mother - because she is dying to have a grandchild as the only one of her friends to not yet have any. She wants one for her, not for me.

writergirl
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 01:29 pm: [report]

@I Go To 11—

HAHAHAHA…breastfeeding versus non breastfeeding…that one does get nasty doesn’t it?  That totally shocked me.

I asked a friend who was pregnant with her second if she was going to breastfeed and she hemmed and hawed and finally said, “No.”  (I didn’t know her until her first was over a year.)  And I said, “I didn’t bf either.”  She literally gave a sigh of relief and said, “Oh, good.  So you won’t hate me like ___.”  Really?  It has even come down to friends fighting with eachother over the issue?  How absurd.

If we actually worked TOGETHER as mothers we’d probably accomplish much more on the issues that DO really matter: like quality daycare at affordable prices, vaccinations, autism, education…but we don’t seem to be able to get our act together because every issue is just so polarizing.

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 02:01 pm: [report]

@Sonic Aww, thanks, I’d love to marry you! :D

I Go To 11
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 02:07 pm: [report]

@writergirl: When I had my daughter, I intended to give breastfeeding a shot. However, she apparently felt otherwise and we just could not get it to work; I started feeling like a failure (that particular hospital was incredibly pro-breastfeeding) until a very kind nurse said that if I gave her a bottle, it doesn’t mean I’m a horrible mother. (She’s my first and only child, BTW.) Well, the next day the lactation consultant came in and cheerily asked if I was able to get my daughter to nurse. When I said no, I gave her formula instead, you’d think I’d just peed in her Cheerios or something because from that point on, other than the aforementioned nurse, she and the rest of the staff treated me with such disdain because I *dared to give my child a bottle. I was already beyond exhausted and hormonal from giving birth, and I didn’t need that; it just ruined my whole hospital stay. I don’t know why they felt they had to be so discouraging, especially towards a new mom; it just didn’t make sense.

There’s nothing wrong with putting your needs first, as long as it’s not detrimental to other responsibilities(such as spending all your money on designer clothes instead of paying bills, or partying more often than taking care of your kids.) I need to make sure I’m healthy and happy, or else everything I do will suffer, and that includes parenting. If that means carving out time from my day to go running, or having ice cream before my dinner once in a while, so be it. Besides, the key to everything is moderation. Have fun, do whatever makes you happy, but don’t go completely overboard.

emflow
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 02:13 pm: [report]

I think the pressure to not be selfish can be seriously harmful to women.

Here’s my anecdotal example:
My mom & I stopped at a gas station where we ended up giving direction to a stranger who had missed her road. We sent her on her way but afterward my mom said something to the effect of “Maybe we should have offered to show her - had her follow us to the turn off,” though it was the opposite direction from where we were going. 5min driving the wrong way wouldn’t have had any effect on our lives, but because we hadn’t inconvenienced ourselves we had this absurd case of guilt.

So that’s one small example, but it’s part of a bigger issue. When women learn and accept a provider role that devalues their own wants and needs, that can lead to guilt, stress and resentment. And we only had a case of guilt over giving directions - imagine how much guilt and resentment could get wrapped up in decisions to have a child or breastfeed.

writergirl
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 02:26 pm: [report]

@I Go to 11—

I SOOOOO agree!  Funny you mentioned mother’s internet boards.  I belonged to one when my son was born (He is my one and only too) and I found it to be a great source of help, support and stress relief.

Over the years, there were about fifteen of us who branched off and formed our own private group. 

The “babies” are now five—so we’re not posting questions related to poop anymore, we’re posting everyday life things.  There are three or four of those moms who think I am the worst.  Mother.  Ever.  Because I leave my kid with a babysitter approximately once a month.  Leave him to go away with my husband for less than five days once a year.  And tell him to “Wait a minute” so I can pee.

Apparently, this makes me selfish and I am a horrible mother because of it.  (Now, here comes the judgement part.)  Those same mothers who think I am selfish and horrible will admit they are all on some kind of happy pill because they have literally been driven crazy by their kids and can’t cope any other way.  Uh….do you think if maybe you were a tiny bit “selfish” you could cope without a the pills?

I am sorry you had that experience in the hospital.  I didn’t BF, and I think it was because society was so “You have to BF” that I, of course, being me, decided to go against the grain. Turned out, that wasn’t such a bad decision.  My son was severely jaundiced when he was born and the doctor said he was glad I wasn’t BF because we knew precisely how much he was eating. 

And also my kid was a HORRIBLE feeder.  It took me about an hour to feed him an ounce of formula. I remember the first two months of his life being excruciating when it came to feeding time.  I literally sat in a chair for eight hours a day just trying to get him to eat! If he had been BF, he’d probably be dead because I would have followed the rule of ten minutes on each side and he would have starved. 

Thankfully, none of the medical personnel came down on me because of my decision, but I wonder how much of that was because the pediatrician did note in the chart that it was good the baby was bottlefed.

I’ve summed it up like this:  If Mama isn’t happy, NO ONE is going to be happy.  So if that means I hire a babysitter, leave him with his grandmother, exercise for an hour or take a bathroom break—well, I’m probably doing him and my husband a favor in the long run!

And to all you gals without children—yes!  Us mothers are classified as “selfish” too when our ideals don’t fit in with someone else’s.

powplz
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 02:41 pm: [report]

@writergirl - my best friend back home has a gorgeous little 15 month old girl ... and she’s going nutz.  The poor girl just needs a little break, and she kept calling herself SELFISH for wanting what, a weekend away from both the bf and her daughter? (she’s the primary caregiver). 

You don’t have to be a momma to know that if momma falls apart, everyone, baby included, will suffer.  That’s not even selfish, it’s called avoiding caregiver burnout!  I do end up getting a little wrapped up in the kids v no kids thing because I *hate* being judged over something that is no one else’s business ... but then I talk to my friends (of all ages) who are mothers (to kids from 15 months to 19 y.o.) and when I hear the pressure they get, my heart breaks.  Did you see the grief the parents in nyc got who let their son ride the subway home alone?  yikes!

Raugiel
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 02:50 pm: [report]

Well said! I have always wanted to be the “wacky aunt”, not the mom. I hope that my brother, cousins, and their present and future children will enjoy having someone available to babysit for “date night”!

writergirl
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 04:01 pm: [report]

@joyy—No I missed the story about the kid and NYC subway…I’ll Google it later.  But what’s funny about that, is that in Japan, it is NORMAL for a six year old to ride the subway by his/herself.  Cultural divide.  What is one culture’s norm is another’s child neglect.

Yes, care givers get burned out.  But until recently, I think it was taboo to even consider that happened.  Why it wasn’t considered before is anyone’s guess.  And how anyone expects NOT to get worn out when parenting is literally a 24/7 job is beyond me.  Even vacation isn’t really vacation when you go with kids.

Everyone needs time to recharge their batteries.  No one thinks of condemning a man if he decides to take a vacation from his job.  But if a woman claims she needs a break from her kid(s)—watch out!  Hell hath no fury….

marv3mania
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 04:38 pm: [report]

I understand that this article (and obviously blog in general) is centered on women, but I would like to stand up for my gender as well. No, men generally don’t have to same pressure to have kids that women have, but it’s there nonetheless. My family has given me a hard time about my decision to never have kids. They even criticized me when I said I would never want to marry someone who already has kids. If I don’t want my own, why would I want someone else’s?

I would also like to say that wanting kids is just as selfish as not wanting kids. You want kids because YOU want kids. You made the decision to do what you think will make YOU happier. How is that not selfish? Either decision is selfish, so why does it matter?

I Go To 11
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 04:43 pm: [report]

@joyy: When I had my daughter, on the various message boards I posted to I would see posts about how some new moms couldn’t bear to leave their babies with even a relative for more than an hour…after several months. I thought there was something wrong with me when I felt okay having a good friend watch my little one for a few hours when she was a month old. I knew she was in good hands, so I was fine with it, and of course everything went smoothly. But these women talked about how they wanted to be with their babies 24/7 and burst into tears if they had to leave them in someone else’s care long enough to even take a shower. I’m like, “Are these women for real?” I seriously thought I was messed up because I didn’t feel guilty letting someone I trusted watch her so I could have a little time for myself every so often; these women made me feel like I was some selfish wench because of that.

EarthGoddess
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 04:46 pm: [report]

I think I’ll opt out of this conversation ... I’ve caused enough trouble for one day.

tattooed_redhead
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 05:16 pm: [report]

Our running family gag is that I’m ‘Auntie Mame’. I started calling myself that when my sister was pregnant, and my parents rented the movie to understand. I love my niece to death, and I spoil her rotten. I have great plans for the two of us, but having my own kids is not for me. I love my life the way it is; I don’t see the need to add children to it, and if that is selfish, so be it. I have the right to be selfish, don’t I? Yes, I do!

writergirl
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 06:33 pm: [report]

//After all, isn’t one of the upshots of feminism supposed to be that women have more choices than ever before and each of us is free to do what makes us happy? //

Is it possible that feminism, in giving us MORE choices and opening avenues to us that weren’t available to our mothers or grandmothers, is actually responsible for women turning on each other and categorizing women into groups, i.e.  selfish verus selfless?

babybritain
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 06:53 pm: [report]

The argument that not having kids means you are selfish reminds me so much of the argument that not being religious means you have no morals. Having kids changes your life, but it is by far not the only way to change your life. Some people may be taught to be selfless by having kids just as some people only learn morals when they read the bible. But if you think about those two situations, they are pretty scary. That means that you were a pretty horrible person before you had kids, not the great makings of a parent, is it? In the second situation you are only “good” because a book told you to be, which sounds more like a sociopath trying to fit in. Those of us who choose not to have children are not by definition selfish. Being human gives you the capacity to feel empathy and care for the community, not having children or being religious.

sam04
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 07:43 pm: [report]

I definitely think there needs to be a new and improved word for being “selfish” or “self-serving”.  It’s not always a bad thing.  I always think that I want to live life for myself.  I want to be happy.  I want to make sure that I’m taken care of.  That doesn’t mean I hurt anyone else in the process!  It just means I am capable of putting my own needs ahead of someone else’s when I need to.  If you can’t put someone ahead of yourself for the unimportant stuff… that’s bad.

Pseudonomtastic
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 01:41 am: [report]

First time/long time here - hi!  Just gotta randomly comment, ‘cause I get a lot of flack from my family and other people when I tell them I don’t really wanna get married and I DEFINITELY don’t want children. Different things work for different people!  My mom eventually wants grandchildren, which sucks for her, ‘cause I’m not popping any out. Sometimes I think it’s selfish of people to continually try to pressure others into living a certain kind of life just because it’s expected.  I don’t find it selfish that I don’t want kids; there are too many people in this world already.  It would be horrible to bring a kid into the world just because that’s what’s done.

majicksand
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 06:55 am: [report]

I truly can’t understand why anyone doesn’t want kids.  Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to judge anyone for their choice, I just don’t get it.  My sister has no kids, my best friend, her sister—I’m like the Lone Ranger here!

Maybe the people who are judging, on both sides, simply can’t wrap their heads around the other point of view.  People with kids see the absolute joy that comes with the struggle.  People without kids, I guess, see the negatives with no way of understanding the benefits.

I’ve always known I wanted kids.  It was never a question for me.  I wanted to be a mom and a rockstar.  The birth of my first child put an end to the rockstar dream, but I’m ok with that.  I believe my son’s timely arrival saved me from immersing myself in a lifestyle that likely would have killed me.  He’s a teenager now, so half the time I want to kill HIM (lol), but he’s still one of the coolest people I know.

I don’t care about partying.  I don’t need expensive clothes.  I do wish I could travel more, but I love Disneyworld, so I’m happy to go there on vacation.  Motherhood is definitely a trade-off, but it’s one I was happy to make.  I do have a secret weapon though… My mom lives close by and is happy to watch the kids regularly. 

My friends who don’t want kids (or are unsure) can’t explain their choice.  That’s ok, I couldn’t explain mine.  I wouldn’t trade my kids for a whirlwind tour of the world, but I do demand a minute-by-minute account whenever my sister returns from her latest trip to wherever. :}

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:06 am: [report]

If I ever do have kids (which I’m pretty sure I will), I promise never to let myself be guilt-tripped by other moms for not being self-sacrificing enough. I’m single and childless right now and I already need “alone time” or else I get really cranky—I don’t see how that will change when I have a husband and a kid or two.

My mother raised five children and when my father came home from work each night around 5pm, from that point on, usually when I asked Mom for something, she told me to ask my father to do it for me because she was tired. Sometimes she’d explicitly say she needed a break. I never thought she was being “a bad mom” or “lazy.” I just thought she had spent all day with 5 kids and wanted my dad to take on a share of parenting duties!

As a result, my dad took us to the library or on errands or to doctor’s appointments. Even though he worked in an office and my mom stayed at home, it seemed to me that he did 50% of the parenting.  This was absolutely normal in my family and I’m so glad for it, because I think I have a good precedent going forward for how I want my future husband/father of my children to be.

chouette
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:08 am: [report]

I can appreciate why it’s so great to have children, but as someone who’s not sure I want them and is put off by being called “selfish” : there are certainly arguments that can be made for having kids being the thing that is selfish- overpopulation, millions of abandoned/orphaned children in need of homes…the list goes on…

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:09 am: [report]

@majicksand: By saying how you can’t understand why we don’t want kids you can effectively nullify anything we say regarding why we don’t want them. Here is the thing, everybody is different, it comes up in every single darn thread, and that is the catch. I don’t want to spawn little brats period because I don’t want to have to (By law) car for them. I would hesitate to say that this isn’t selfish behavior, deciding to not have children comes back to the “When is it a child” issue. Not making a baby isn’t selfish, it’s just another decision, unless you’re some bible thumper who actually believes that we were put here to reproduce, and lots at that.

Boiled down, because I don’t think what I said above made much sense, not having children is not selfish, because they don’t exist yet.

Queen Frostine
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:26 am: [report]

“People without kids, I guess, see the negatives with no way of understanding the benefits.”

@majicksand, for me it’s not about the pros and cons. It’s just that my dreams and goal are different. They’re not better than yours, they just don’t involve children because I’m not interested in having them. My cousins have children and I understand her point of view. She wants a family and she is born to be a mother. She has maternal instincts, like you. I don’t have motherly instincts. I’m not trying to defend myself, or attack anyone, but try to help you see that each person’s dreams are different and equally meritable.

My passion in life is to make art. It’s what I was born to do. It requires a lot of serious devotion, focus, time and attention. I consider it my gift from god. My purpose here in life is to use my gifts to the best of my ability and to help others through it. That’s something that I cannot pursue if I had a child. And if I cannot pursue my dreams and passions, if I lock away all the gifts and talents I have been given… to have something I have zero interest and zero passion in, then what is the point?

EastCoastMale
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:32 am: [report]

@Queen

Very good point and I believe I understand and feel somewhat the same. I don’t think that looking at the benefits and detractors of a situation such as having kids will truly tell a person who they are or what their life goals should be. If someone who was neutral on the idea simply saw more items in a positive column, I would hope they do not have kids simply for that reason. Not saying that any previous poster would do so, just trying to illustrate my point.

Perceptible
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:35 am: [report]

The Duggars are having enough kids for everyone so that lets a whole bunch of people off the hook. Maybe we should be thanking them! (ha ha ha)

powplz
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:47 am: [report]

@majiksand - if you don’t understand why people don’t want kids, then why do you feel the need to make condescending remarks guessing at it?  I don’t have expensive clothes and I’m not much of a partier.  You know how you said you always knew you wanted to be a mom?  You probably just felt that and when asked, are able to finger a whole bunch of reasons why.  “People without kids, I guess, see the negatives with no way of understanding the benefits.” <- absolutely false.  Also, please remember that you are generalizing a large, very diverse group of people whose only common denominator is answering “no” to the question of “do you want children?”

I obviously can’t speak for everyone who doesn’t want kids, but I would be really surprised if I was alone in just absolutely lacking the desire/urge to have kids.  Simple as that.  I do enjoy traveling and I go nuts when I’m unemployed (so staying at home seems like it would drive me batty), but it’s not about the pros and cons at all.  It’s about being honest with myself.  I have no urge or desire to have children, so I’m not having them.

majicksand
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:51 am: [report]

Apparently, I did not express myself very well in my last post.  Intellectually, I understand the reasons other people have for not wanting children.  Many of those reasons I can even validate within my own life—I can’t travel whenever, wherever, I hate parent-teacher conferences (they are never good news), I can’t drive the cute little roadster I’ve been drooling over, the list goes on…. The point I was trying to make is that motherhood to me was always a given.  I have no concept of what it’s like to be opposed or unsure.  I don’t understand Chinese either—that doesn’t make it a bad thing.

Another woman’s choice to not have children is her own.  It just doesn’t make sense in my world, for me.  All I was trying to point out is that for people like me the concept of never having children is unthinkable.  For others, like my sister, children are, at best, optional.  I respect her decision, I just don’t understand it.

For that matter, I’m totally cool with my sister never having kids.  If she did, it might cut down on my ability to count on my mom for babysitting at the last minute.  lol.  How’s that for selfish?

powplz
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:56 am: [report]

I’m not even talking about selfishness.  Also, I have no idea why you insist on rehashing the ‘reasons’ thing, reread my own comments and Queen’s posts.  Trying to validate one decision or another only makes everything look trivial, when in reality it’s usually not.

SeaWorthy
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 07:59 am: [report]

I am a mom to two active sons (9 & 12)...and I am selfish. I take time for myself as motherhood is a portion of my identity not my complete identity. I managed to breastfeed them both, but, in retrospect, a bottle would have been nice. The first time around I listened to all the advice, the second time around I co-slept and did what felt right to me, sooooo much better.

I expect my sons to get good grades, to help around the house and take care of each other…as I work hard, help around the house, and take care of them. I do not give them everything they ask for and I do not go broke providing for them. I expect them to try and succeed and to try and fail…both are a part of life and they need to learn how to cope with both.

My job as a parent is to get them ready to be fully functioning adults. I did not have children because I wanted a baby, or a mini-me, I had children because I wanted children. I have a successful career and believe I am as successful a parent as anyone can be. It is a tough job and not for everyone. I teach my children not to look at other people’s lives and be envious of what you see, you have no idea what goes on in their homes when no one is watching.

I have no idea why raising children is such a competitive sport…I do not have time to get judgey of other women, whether childless by choice or childfull by choice. The only advice I give parents to be….don’t take advice from anyone who does not have grown children, if you can’t see the end result of their “advice”.

powplz
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 08:03 am: [report]

@Seaworthy - sounds more sane than selfish to me : )

majicksand
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 09:04 am: [report]

@joyy: Wow, I’m really not expressing myself well today at all apparently.  I doesn’t bother me if other people don’t want kids.  I don’t even really care why.  Everyone seems to be wondering why there is such animosity between parents and non-parents.  I was trying to illustrate with my own experience that the concept of not wanting children or even being unsure is foreign to me.  When my own desire for children is something that has always just been a given, I can understand the belief of some mothers that everyone must feel that way.

Why is my sister ambivelent on the subject?  I don’t know.  She could go on for days about lack of maternal instinct, lifestyle changes, sacrifice, whatever.  I understand what she’s saying intellectually, but, on an emotional level, it doesn’t track in my world.  It does not bother me that her view is different.  She can have children or not as she chooses.  I won’t think more (or less) of her whatever she decides.

I was just giving my theory on why there is a controversy in the first place.  Some women will never understand why others don’t want kids.  I don’t think you are wrong, or a bad person, or even selfish for that matter.  It doesn’t bother me at all.  I just can’t ever truly identify with your point of view because I’ve never considered it an option for me.

To summarize: The best way to understand another person’s feelings is to “put yourself in their shoes”.  My entire point is that I am unable to do so.  For many people any opposing viewpoint “must” be wrong because they can’t see it any other way.

I really wasn’t trying to be controversial.  In order to judge your choice, or your reasons for it, I’d have to judge my sister and my best friend too.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 09:16 am: [report]

The animosity in my opinion comes down to the questions, the never ending questions. “Why don’t you have kids yet?”, which would come after “Why aren’t you married yet?”, which would come after “Why don’t you have a girlfriend?”, which may (Slight chance) come after “Why don’t you get off the couch once in a while?” Argh.

majicksand
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 03:20 pm: [report]

Don’t feel alone, CheeeeEEEEse.  Parents will question your choices forever.  My mom has questioned every decision I’ve ever made about my kids! lol.

powplz
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 03:30 pm: [report]

oh this one, hah, yeah, no we’re good, we were actually kind of on the same page all along, I think.  I don’t think anyone can ever actually understand anyone else’s situation because, as I keep repeating the obvious sometimes, everyone is different.  I just really hate the whole making a list of your reasons to justify one decision or another because no one owes that to anyone (ok, maybe a spouse, but the internet? really!).

majicksand
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 03:56 pm: [report]

@joyy: Thank God.  I usually don’t have such a hard time making sense.  BTW, I should explain what I meant about people without kids having no way to understand the benefits.

When my eldest son was born, that first moment was pure magic.  After a miserable pregnancy and a painful labor and delivery, it was all worth it in that one instant.  Every time I want to strangle my son, I remember that moment.  I thought I loved him before he was born, but that moment changed everything I ever thought I knew about love, life, and the world.

I don’t know if all new mothers have that moment.  I don’t know if people who never have children get some other moment that affects them the same way.  All I know is that my first glimpse of that boy is the single greatest moment of my life. (I was way to jacked-up on morphine with the second one to have any kind of moment whatsoever)  Through all the crap, all the bad days, that’s the benefit of being a mother to me.  Nothing will ever be so perfect.

I sincerely hope that you have that moment in your own life whatever its source. :}

powplz
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 04:00 pm: [report]

“Every time I want to strangle my son, I remember that moment” - priceless.

majicksand
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 04:08 pm: [report]

I believe the real difference between good parents and bad is that the good ones only contemplate child abuse.  Seriously, I love my boys, and I’m glad I’m a mom, but some days they ARE a pain in the ass!  I’m the only member of my family who doesn’t have high blood pressure.  I figure it’s because God knows I can only handle so much.  If I had to raise my heathens while battling a bad heart?  I’d be dead for sure! lol

writergirl
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 04:19 pm: [report]

@majicksand—//the real difference between good parents and bad is that the good ones only contemplate child abuse.//

So true.  SOOO true.  As someone told me one day when I had to put my screaming son in his crib (he was eight months old) because I couldn’t take it after three hours and was really afraid I was going to hurt him (and of course suffered the requisite quilt) “Good mom’s know when to walk away.”

dlc910
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 04:58 pm: [report]

Majicsand - that’s an interesting point, that your desire for children was always a given.  When I was a child, I remember that all the other kids, boys and girls, assumed they would get married and have children.  I never did.  Now I’m 33, and although I work with children and enjoy it,and adore my nieces, I don’t want children, and am fairly sure I never will. 

I’m a bit confused that I would be considered selfish for not wanting children.  You have children because you DO want them.  Having children when you’re not sure about it seems insane to me.  I’m not saying that I’m not selfish - if we really wanted to help children and were completely unselfish we’d all be out pulling a Mother Theresa or something, right?

majicksand
wrote on June 18 2009 @ 06:41 am: [report]

@writergirl: I had the exact same issue with my first one.  After exhausting every option I could think of, I would put him in his crib and shut the door.  He was asleep within two minutes every time!

@dlc910: Yeah, I never got the “selfish” thing either.  I have told my best friend I thought it was sad that she might never have kids.  I think she’d make a great mom.  I’m also a little concerned that it’s not that she doesn’t want them, it’s more that she has given up the dream.  She always professed to want kids when we we younger.  The indecision only started shortly before her marriage finally met its messy end.  Now she’s in her mid-thirties and single again.  I’m afraid she thinks it’s too late, so she’s consoling herself by deciding it doesn’t matter.  I don’t know. 

My sister, on the other hand, who knows what she’ll do (about anything)—or why.  I’ve learned not to question.  I would kill or die for my sister without blinking, but I admit I’ve never understood her.  She’s just cool and mysterious like that. lol. ;P

Unohoo
wrote on June 18 2009 @ 11:53 am: [report]

People who point their fingers at others and call them selfish are hypocrites.  Essentially they are attacking from a defensive position and are stating that because you don’t do it THEIR way you are selfish.  Because it’s all about them, their way, their choice…remind me again who is selfish?

I am part of the “1 and done” club, by choice and I have been attacked more times than I can count by other mothers who have called me selfish.  My response is to point out that my “selfishness” is leaving a smaller carbon footprint on this planet so that their enormous brood of consumers can have more & more & more.  I suppose i justify my rude response to their rude unsolicited advice.

Mahogany Misfit
wrote on June 18 2009 @ 09:08 pm: [report]

@ waitingwillfill- That was beautifully said and I think you are VERY right. Having children is incredibly self-indulgent as is anything rooted in DESIRE. People have children because they DESIRE them, yet my desire NOT to have them is somehow wrong. I am so tired of the pseudo self-sacrificing “martyr complex” some mothers have. You acted on a desire, I am acting on mine. Why is that an issue?

In any case, the reasons I don’t want children are various. Selfishness and loving my freedom is one factor I’m sure, but so is fear. The idea that I could spend thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars and 20+ years of my life on someone who ultimately could turn out to be someone I’m ashamed of or hurt by scares the #&@$% out of me.

There is SUCH a lack of control once you have a kid and I have seen so many instances of wonderful people having children who turned out to be very wretched human beings for no good reason. I’ve read a bit on nature vs. nurture and it scares me how little impact good parenting can have. I can’t imagine dedicating my life to that to have an undesirable outcome when I have no desire for kids anyway. I have seen TOO MANY brokenhearted parents, absolutely SICK over who their children have become (some in my family) and for me- it’s NOT worth it.

Selfish? I don’t know but I’d rather be safe than sorry and my life is beautiful just the way it is. I am thrilled I am at a self-aware enough place to have thought this through fully and completely.

Mimi_Jones
wrote on June 21 2009 @ 01:07 am: [report]

I would never ever trade having mny son (my one and only) for not having him.  He turned 22 yesterday and he is growing into a really nice young man.  I love him more than I could ever express.

That being said…I CAN imagine life without kids.  I can remember (barely) a time when I had extra money, I could come and go at will and I didn’t have to worry abut whether or not other peaple had eaten on any given day. 

I am slowly getting back to that state, but college aged children, who took a couple of years off to see what “real life” is like before they agreed that school IS the best way to go about having a better life, still tend to need a little support, financial and otherwise.  Don’t get me wrong, he’s 22, he HAS to work part time, but I really want him to get an education so I choose to help him out to facilitate making school a priority.

Ironically, even though what/when/here/who he is with/going/doing is apparently none of my business, if I am gone without leaving one of those notes that annoy him, I can’t be gone more than an hour before he’s calling to check up on me.

I am so glad I never got involved with other “mommies.”  I would have had to slap down a few people I’m sure.  Who the H*** is anyone to tell anyone else what they should or shouldn’t do?  This is America remember?

I intended to brestfeed my son, but it didn’t work and so he ended up being a bottle baby/  So what?  He didn’t starve to death.  I imposed a lot of things on myself, which in retrospect I should have just relaxed about, but anyone wiht a kid knows that you don’t know anything when the first one arrives so everything is trial and error.

The thing is these moms are wearing themselves out and taking time AWAY from their children by worrying over a bunch of stupid stuff like folding the towels “just so.”  So what?  Fold them and get them in the closet and call it a day.  Go to the park, read a book wiht your kid, teach him to count.  Then put him to bed at 7 PM and kick back drink some wine and dance around to some Tom Jones.

Disclaimer:  He doesn’t have to sleep at 7 PM, he just has to go to bed and let Mommy have a time out.

likeOMGkbye
wrote on June 21 2009 @ 07:58 am: [report]

Ok, here’s my latest thoughts on having kids as of last night.

I. am. terrified.

Last night my mom had a spa party over at our house and one of her friends brought her 5 year old grandson who she takes care of because her 23 yr old daughter cannot. Granted, this kid was on meds for A.D.D. but he must have skipped a dosage because he was ALL OVER THE PLACE. Running around, touching things he shouldn’t be touching, yelling, talking back to his grandma…omg. By the end of the night I had a headache.

And the biggest “oh #&@$%” moment was when I realized I don’t know what the hell to do with the kid. When he talked to me I was just kinda like “uhhh…” because I have no idea how to relate to a 5 year old boy. I just hoped all night that he would avoid me so that I wouldn’t have to interact with him because I simply didn’t know what to do with him or what he wanted. That was scary.

So now this experience has permanently scarred me from having kids. And to think I always wanted to have boys…

KatieBlue
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 01:48 pm: [report]

Good Heavens, I’ve always thought that a person who had a lot of kids was incredibly selfish.  That show where the family has 17 kids just appalls me. There’s only so much room and clean water on this planet for people and here’s someone littering her genes all over the place.  No it not cute to keep producing that way - there’s no way you can support that mountain of progeny without leaning on the rest of us and taking up more than your share.  People who don’t have children - are doing us all a favor at their own expense.

I Go To 11
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 02:32 pm: [report]

@ unohoo: People have been asking me if my fiance and I will have any children of our own. We’ve discussed it, and I think I’ll be part of the “1 and done” club, too. He’s content being a stepfather, and I’m happy with just my little princess. If we decide we want another one, we’d probably adopt because there are so many children on this planet that could use a good home (I do agree with the “carbon footprint” reasoning, as well.)

Gingee
wrote on June 25 2009 @ 05:24 am: [report]

Ah.  I’ve known, since age 11, that I never wanted kids.

NONE of that appealed.  Pregnancy is something I find physically revolting.  I do not like babies. In fact, I hate kids.

But that is my personal preference.

Being selfish is something that I advocate.  More gals need to be more selfish, and they/we need to get smarter about it.

As I remember, my mother was made to believe that she had a duty to care for the aged, the sick and of course, have children. 

She was NEVER told that the most important thing she could do was to take care of her own needs.  Instead, she became a carpet and let other people use her.

What I tell the ladies:  Do NOT DO that scut work for free.  If it is worth doing, it is worth a paycheck.

As for children:  I actively dislike them.  I am sensitive to noise and crying babies ranks right up there with fingernails on a chalk board.

My husband said once, as we were taking another drive, “Isn’t it great that we do not have children?  We can do whatever we want.”  Absolutely.

If I read another article or comment by some Bitter Old B. about how we are going to end up ALONE, in the nursing home, with no photographs of adoring spring who will soon visit, and that we shall die lonely, going to get it on film:

And show it on Entertainment Night, as we enjoy that thing called Double Income No Kids Early Retirement.

One of the funniest comments I’ve ever heard, from a fembot, was that “You do not know what it is like to want to protect someone because you’re Not a mooooooooooooother.”

Momism - there is no known treatment for women who compete with each other over Who Is the Better Mommy.

*smirk*

sozo
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 04:35 am: [report]

Having kids is a massive selfish ego trip.
The planet already has more humans than it can bear.
Providing love and nurturing for wayward souls is selfless.
If you can only do that to a mini-me, that’s a selfish ego trip.

It is in our human nature, we are wired to a deeper happiness when we reach beyond ourselves, giving a part of ourselves to the greater whole and participating in the realm of humanity, however each individual finds to express and live that, more power to them.

majicksand
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 09:33 am: [report]

@sozo: You are entitled to not want or have children of your own, but DO NOT presume that you have the right to make that choice for me or anyone else.  How dare you act as though you know anything about selflessness or kindness while you attempt to sit in judgement of others for doing the most natural thing in the world?

veetort
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:19 pm: [report]

As a male, I tend to view woman who don’t want children as incredibly selfish. Look at some of the reasons woman give:

1. I don’t like kids. They’re annoying, loud, messy, etc.
—Don’t these woman realize they were once that annoying, loud, messy child? It’s a bit hypocritical to hate the thing you once were. More importantly, YOU WOULDN’T BE HERE if someone was too selfish to deal with you.

2. I just want to have fun, enjoy my life.
—This is the definition of selfishness. A child is viewed as a hindrance to your life. It’s all about me first, and me only. 

3. I can have just as meaningful life without children.
—If you really believe this, you are fooling yourself. Do you honestly think your job, hobby, or close friends can provide the same fulfillment as a child? Then you also need to argue a life of one-night stands is just as fulfilling as a meaningful committed relationship. 

Now, before I get lambasted, let me say that I don’t think there’s anything wrong with women choosing not to have children. To be perfectly honest, they probably wouldn’t make the best mothers. I just think these women need to admit that they are in fact being incredibly selfish in this regard. And rationalizing how this self-centeredness is healthy, is just that- rationalizing. Hey, I’m selfish in a lot of ways too, but I don’t turn it around and claim I’m just “trying to hold onto myself.” Admit what it is and live with it. Who cares if others (like me) disapprove?

powplz
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:26 pm: [report]

@veetort - when people are able to explain why they choose to have kids in a way that doesn’t start nearly every point with “I *want*” (love, a family, this kind of legacy, etc), then you can paint one side and not the other with the selfish brush.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:28 pm: [report]

You’re a dumbass and I approve this comment.

LunaLena
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:34 pm: [report]

@ veetort - I wouldn’t care if you disapprove or not if people like you didn’t go out of your way to tell people like me that you disapprove and get all judgmental about it.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:36 pm: [report]

@lunalena: He’s a one and done I expect.

veetort
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:36 pm: [report]

@joyy- Point taken. I agree people can have children for reasons that are equally selfish. But one side being selfish doesn’t cancel out the other. My main point was to admit it’s selfish; stop rationalizing it; and most importantly, stop caring when others judge.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:38 pm: [report]

@vetort: I will admit nothing. My beliefs have no standing over you, nor do yours hold any sway over mine. Stop being such a self righteous person and everybody wins.

powplz
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:45 pm: [report]

@veehort - my own reasons for not wanting children are really just about being honest with myself.  And I see no reason to tolerate being judged for that.  I will also import my comment from another thread regarding the stupid notion that anyone who doesn’t want kids would be a bad parent anyways:

Not wanting children has nothing to do with one’s capacity to be a good parent.  There are PLENTY of terrible, neglectful, abusive parents who intentionally had their children, and to quote my father (who is one of them), wanted “nothing more than to have lots and lots of kids.”  I know plenty of people who didn’t want to have kids and are wonderful parents to their oops! unplanned kids.

tk_2009
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 02:43 pm: [report]

@veehort - you’re a jackass, but you shouldn’t care when I say so, correct? See, while you may not actually be a jackass, most people have a hard time actually not caring that the finger was pointed, especially in such a personal way. If you really don’t care when others judge (as I assume you must, based on your rhetoric) then where does your motivation to judge others come from?

A decision you make about something that intimately involves you and no other is not, in itself, selfish, as it does not disregard the welfare or feelings of others. It affects you only. So if you say it’s selfish because it was based on personal wants and desires, then yes, I suppose, but you are misappropriating the word. However, if you mean it was selfish like not picking up after yourself or drinking the last of the coffee and not making more or losing your family nest-egg on gambling, or giving your wife (who doesn’t bowl) a bowling ball for her birthday, then no, I would say you are off-base.

toestor
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 04:30 pm: [report]

(Incendary?) questions: Why is there a general tendency to say:

no children = selfish
children = unselfish?

I think there are perfect examples of women (and men, can’t think of a good example right now) who had children for completely selfish reasons, and if someone is so happy about having children, because it has “enriched” their lives, doesn’t that make it a selfish act? “You did what? You had children despite the worlds overpopulation issues? ... shame on you.”

Also: Isn’t it a necessary motherly/fatherly instinct to be
selfish, to protect one’s offspring? Hence: Is an unselfish parent maybe a bad parent?

And: A lot of parents I know have become utterly boring (to me) after they became said parents as all they ever talk about are their children. Again: their singular focus might make them great parents, but I am really scared into turning into such a person. (I recommend David Cross’s piece on this subject for astute observation and I also recommend Patton Oswalt’s observation on “cool parents”).

Finally: Examples of well-known selfish mothers: Octomom, Kate (minus Jon) plus eight, Madonna (to throw in an adoption example) ...

Sorry for the lengthy post.

majicksand
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 04:50 pm: [report]

@toestor: I’m not sure I understood your post.  Are you trying to say that having kids is inherently selfish? 

The over-population argument is really tired.  Can we move on from that one please.  In my opinion it’s a stupid point.  Seriously, adoption is not an option for everyone.  Are we just supposed to stay childless? 

As far as being protective, how is that selfish?  We are all protective of someone—parents, friends, spouses, etc.  Frankly, I’d say looking out for only your own interests without concern for anyone else is selfish not the other way around.

toestor
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 05:35 pm: [report]

@majicksand: Yes, you didn’t understand my post.

I am saying that whether someone has kids (or not) does not make either person selfish or unselfish. One can be both selfish or unselfish in either decision.

Whether the overpopulation argument is tired or not does not really disprove it: Explain to me how kids are dying of starvation and disease everyday? No, we are not overpopulated in the “developed” world, but this is very much a global issue (not least because of our selfishness in using 90 percent of the worlds resources).

Parents will be protective of their own children and in doing so inherently disregard interest of “others” ... it’s a natural and necessary trait we inherited from our animal ancestry, that’s how being “protective” can be “selfish”.

You might chose to be a parent or not to be a parent, in either scenario you are making a decision based on a benefit you wish to gain from it (selfish!).

Live and let live, but don’t tell someone else how they should, if their decision impacts you in no way.
(Or more directly: Don’t call me selfish for being childless and I won’t call you selfish for having children, because there is no direct correlation of one and the other.)

toestor
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 05:38 pm: [report]

@majicksand: I forgot: Please explain why/how adoption is not an option for everyone, and maybe that is something we could/should change?

lawyrgrl
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:19 pm: [report]

@veehort Bet you must be a joy to live with!  What woman wouldn’t want such a judgmental jerk in her life to have to make happy every day?

majicksand
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:23 pm: [report]

@toestor: I don’t mind giving of my time or money to reputable charities, but I draw the line at accepting that I am somehow selfish for having children because I should support entire nations of people who continue to pop out babies they can’t feed instead.

I don’t disregard the interests of others for anyone if I can possily help it.  However, if it comes down to it, I bet you would disregard whomever you needed to in favor of someone you love too.  My kids are my top priority, not my only one.

Have you ever looked into adoption?  I have.  It’s $10/$15,000 minimum, and insurance will not cover it.  That’s before you get the baby and have to buy everything he or she needs.  If you have any past indiscretions, forget it.  Agencies who deal with older children are hesitant to place their charges in households of a different race.  Many of the children “in the system”  have legal, emotional, and or physical issue which make them difficult to care for at best.  With private adoptions, there’s the risk that the birth mother will change her mind at the last minute after you’ve waited months and covered medical expenses and attorney fees.  You don’t get that money back, and you still have no baby, but now you no longer have the resources to try again.  The list goes on…

I have stated quite clearly in previous posts that I would never judge anyone else for choosing not to have children, so I would appreciate it if you would think about what you’re saying before you judge me.

catscratchfever
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:50 pm: [report]

@ veetort- I’m pretty sure those reasons you listed can come from men as well as women.  Are men who don’t want kids selfish, too, or is it just the womenfolk because were supposed to be nurturing and all of that business.

I’ll break down a little of your bashing:

1 - Um, patience, tolerance, etc. aren’t necessarily genetic.  Some people don’t have the qualities that make parenting easier and more pleasant.  Is it selfish to admit that? 

2 - People who say this and do not have kids aren’t saying that kids are a hindrance to the enjoyment of their lives.  They don’t have to - because they don’t have kids!  Maybe these people want to travel, or climb Everest, or go out drinking every night for the rest of their lives, and they realize that this would be difficult for them to do with children who depend on them for support. 

3 - Why would having children be more fulfilling than any of those things if you don’t like or want kids????  That doesn’t even make sense. 

People having kids without wanting them or being able to properly care for them is the reason we have so many children and MR/DD adults in the foster care system.

beeper
wrote on August 31 2009 @ 09:54 pm: [report]

OMG The whole “selfish” debate needs to die. “wants” are selfish. Therefore “I want to have children” = SELFISH. And “I want to remain childfree”= SELFISH. I only have one life to live and I am going to live it the way I want to. I have no problem admitting I am selfish.

@Veetort: You need a reality check. I was 5 feet tall at one point too. Does that mean I need to like everyone else who is or has been 5 feet tall regardless of their personality, morals, etc? And If I wasn’t here on this planet, well I probably wouldn’t know I wasn’t here on this planet. So who cares? Furthermore, what does having one night stand in any way relate to not having children? Are you implying that if I don’t have children, that means all I do is have one night stands? That confuses me since I am in a strong, committed, fulfilling relationship FREE of children. No one night stands here! According to you, the only way to have a truly fulfilling life is to have children…LMAO I wonder what Charles Manson’s mother and Jeffrey Dahmer’s mother would say in response to that statement?

rockandmetal
wrote on September 30 2009 @ 04:42 pm: [report]

Once and for all it’s NOT SELFISH!!!!!!!!!!!!  It is not selfish to not want kids!  How is this selfish?  Explain it to me, please.  It isn’t!!!!  For the record, I’m a 30-something woman married 16 years who doesn’t want kids.  Never have and never will.  And I happen to be a very giving, compassionate, considerate person who is ANYTHING but selfish. How dare you call me selfish when the only thing you know about me is that I don’t want kids?  This infuriates me to no end!

Another thing… Why are men not considered selfish for not wanting kids?  I’ve never heard of a man ridiculed for not wanting to have kids.  Yet if a woman says she doesn’t want them, she’s considered weird, crazy, or selfish.  (By the way, I have been called all of these names.) What a double standard this is!  It is so pathetic.