What’s Pro-Life About Murdering Doctors? Abortion Doctor Killed In Kansas

EastCoastMale
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 01:36 pm: [report]

killing abortion doctors or anyone for that matter does little to further a cause. I wont get into my own beliefs as far as abortion but that is as big a cop out excuse for murder as I have ever heard. People dont believe in abortion so they kill a doctor in efforts to end them? that is like killing someone carrying rollerblades because you dont like skating. Waging war on an ideal is a dangerous thing.

carolee7
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 02:00 pm: [report]

For people to say that he was killing innocent lives, and then kill him seems to be a bit contradictory.
Killing someone to stop the killing… What??

practicalone
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 02:12 pm: [report]

Let’s stop saying “pro life.”  They are not pro-life, they are pro-human-birth. By changing their namme, they can kill anyone they wish and still be part of the Pro-Human-Birth club.

I challenge everyone who is pro-human-birth to sell their homes and material possessions, move into a rental room without cable,  and donate the funds to a couple who might have an abortion for financial reasons.  Offer to send them $500 a month for the next 18 years.  Prove you are pro-life!

Make contraception cheaper: offer free tube tying and vasectomies and ban fertility reconstruction. 

The babies who are born into homes that do not want them, cannot provide for them, where the child will be neglected or abused for years and years are also true victims of the “pro-human birth” club.

mdtobe
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 02:20 pm: [report]

This man dedicated his life to helping others.  It’s not his soul that needed saving.  I pray for the souls of all the people who believe that what happened today was a good thing because they are the ones who will be judged when the time comes.

Jessica
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 02:43 pm: [report]

You’re not #&@$% pro-life if you murder someone, especially a doctor who has saved countless womens’ lives.

belongsomewhere
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 02:45 pm: [report]

This is really disturbing. For anyone who wants a (scary) peek into the minds and lives of people who think killing abortion-providing doctors, I strongly recommend seeing the documentary Soldiers in the Army of God.

theattack
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 02:47 pm: [report]

I took a class about religious violence this past semester, and if you study enough of it, you see patterns in reasoning and justification.
The people that murder abortion clinic doctors are Christian extremists. (Note: I am not attacking the Christian faith. This is why I’m saying extremists. People that take their faith so far that they take it out of context, and it almost always leads to violence). Christianity frames things into a war between good and evil, and at the same time, the Bible also tells you to fight for God and your faith. Of course, most people can understand that not everything is black and white, but because extremists view their actions as part of a cosmic war between good and evil, they will go to any extreme to insure that God wins in the end. After all, they are taught that it is impossible that He will not. This is an absolutely terrifying thought, because the more we fight back, the more they are provoked to make an even bigger move.
As for the abortion provider murders, extremists think that taking one or two lives is justifiable because they are saving plenty of others. Mostly though, they realize that killing one doctor isn’t making that big of a difference. This cosmic war is symbolic, not concrete. They are not looking for the concrete effects of the killing, but for the recognition that they as a people have power and will go to extremes to get what they want. It’s more of an intimidation factor and showing that they’re serious about it.

On a side note, the terms pro-life and pro-choice shouldn’t be the only terms used. Plenty of people are pro-choice and also anti-abortion. Pro-choice is a political opinion that women should be able to choose. Pro-life is a term that is meant to make people that are pro-choice feel guilty. It’s not that pro-choice people are anti-life and think that every baby should be aborted. They are just supporting a right to choose. The term pro-life is really a term that refers to moral standing, not a political opinion. I just think there could be a more accurate term for pro-life.

Binkie
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 03:24 pm: [report]

The person or people responsible are Christian Extremist Terrorists.
No different than Muslim Extremist Terrorists, just another religious extremist group, killing people who are not like them.

snap
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 04:44 pm: [report]

murder is never the answer, and it’s a shame and disgrace that someone murdered this man.  he did make a career out of murdering babies (maybe you can deny that a 4-weeks conceived fetus is a living being, but in a late-term abortion, you can’t deny that a fully human is removed from a woman), but murder is never the answer.

MsLiberal
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 05:14 pm: [report]

@Um no
Perhaps you should read the reasons why late term abortions are performed.

Abortion isn’t murder, and you should slap the idiotic, authoritarian male who told you such a lie.

moonblossom
wrote on May 31 2009 @ 09:18 pm: [report]

@Um No….its a woman’s body and NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what she does with it. You are obviously misinformed about late term abortions. Get educated!

Ryan
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 10:00 am: [report]

I like to use the term “anti-choice” for those who want to legally ban abortions. I read it in Full Frontal Feminism a few years back. I think the term effectively removes any moral slant from the abortion argument while accurately describing the anti-choice stance. Instead of focusing on the sanctity of a life that has yet to begin, the term points to the legal aspect of banning abortions which is limiting women’s reproductive rights.

Fla_girl
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 10:08 am: [report]

Can we stop calling Dr. Tiller an abortion doctor! Cripe, Dr. Tiller was a respected gynocologist that happened to preform abortions and was a vocal supporter of women’s health issues. By referring to Dr. Tiller as simply an ABORTION DOCTOR, minimizes his true impact not only on his immediate community but on the woman’s health battle that rages on in the country.

snap
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 10:10 am: [report]

do you people know what a late term abortion is?  the “safest” (for the mother, obviously not the baby!) procedure for this abortion involves delivering a kicking and living child feet-first but stopping short of removing the child’s head from the mother’s body.  at this point, the child’s arms and legs are dangling and kicking.  an instrument is inserted into the mother to pierce the child’s skull, and remove the contents of its brain.  the child is then dead and removed fully from the mother’s body.  there is really no practical difference in the nature of this child’s life versus the nature of a fully-delivered child.  regardless of where you stand on the abortion debate, this is the murder of a child.  very late term abortions are sometimes done for conditions like anencephaly, but are often done when the mother discovers conditions such as down syndrome.

i respect the argument that early abortions revolve around the mother’s rights to her own body.  however, it is hard to deny in “very late term abortions,” such as those this doctor performed, that another’s body and life was not involved.

i am a woman and a feminist.  i am a human being first.  in all three of these labels, i must respect the alive and kicking life of a baby that is about to be late term aborted.

kristy1584
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 10:34 am: [report]

I agree with um no in her last post. She decribed how a late term or “partial birth” abortion is done. Its sickening to think that ANYONE would support that. Clearly the baby is not a fetus, its kicking and screaming, its heart is beating, etc. Regardless of any person’s “excuse” to have an abortion, there is no good excuse at any stage of pregnancy to abort. Someone in this country would gladly adopt that child and love it more than life itself. So, youre excuse to that statement is: “I dont want to walk around pregnant for 9 months and not be able to enjoy my life” Well, you shouldve thought about that before you laid in the bed and didnt use some form of contraception.

@practicalone: I know of several health departments where a woman can go and get FREE birth control and/or condoms. Cant get any cheaper than that now can we?

Also, in many states when you kill a pregnant woman, you get charged for double murder. So if youre charged for murdering an unborn child when you kill its mother, how come abortion isnt considered murder? It IS murder.

I dont care how many people disagree with me either. We all have our opinions and are entitled to them. Doesnt mean we have to agree. I simply dont believe in abortion and I will support my feelings on that no matter who I offend. Im my eyes abortion in not justifiable in 98% of the cases.

Dont get me wrong, I dont agree with murdering abortion doctors because 2 wrongs dont make a right. This man didnt deserve to be murdered for doing his job. That was just some ignorant person thinking that by killing ONE abortion Dr. it would do some good, which cleary it does not.

Fla_girl
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 10:46 am: [report]

@kristy1584, you are right you have a right to have your opinion… but keep in mind that you would CHOOSE not to have an abortion. And is it an excuse for a victim of sexual assault to terminate a pregnancy? Or worse yet a victim of incest to terminate a pregnancy, are these merely excuses? Or if a mother’s life is in danger if she carries the pregnancy to term? Where do you draw the line? Are you really pro-life or pro-birth? If you are “pro-life” I also hope you are anti-death pentalty and for making social services more readily available to women who have children that they have no means to care for, which would be expanding welfare, food stamps, WIC, making pre-school child care more accesiable and oh yeah making available health care to mothers and their children.

Yes, you are right but I just hope you have an educated reason to be anti-choice or pro-dictatorship women’s healthcare.

Sonic
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 11:07 am: [report]

@ um no:  Actually, most women get late-term abortions because they do not realize they are pregnant (at least according to the AGI).  A woman can go through her first trimester with the pregnancy virtually undetected.  If we assume the woman has a fetus with developmental delays, such as anencephaly where the fetus would not be expected to survive beyond a few hours after birth, amniocentesis and chorionic villus sampling are not available until, on average, about 12-15 weeks into gestation.  Results take 1-2 weeks, and by that time, the woman is 13 weeks pregnant, if she’s estimated her gestational age correctly.  Is this late term abortion?  What is late term abortion?  Is it anything past 12 weeks?  Past 21?  There are also many other reasons a woman might wish to have a late-term abortion – a raped teenager or woman who doesn’t realize she could be pregnant, a woman who is completely undesiring and ignorant of her pregnancy, etc.  Who knows under what circumstances Dr. Tiller performed the abortions?  It’s, more than anything, inflammatory rhetoric the media throws around.           
I think that you seem to define life as “arms and legs are dangling and kicking” but for many people, life begins at different times, so this still would not be regarded as murder.  Many people consider a fetus a fetus until it is birthed during labor. 
You seem to want to horrify us by portraying these “brutal” tactics that doctors like Dr. Tiller use to perform late term abortions.  But do we know for sure those are the methods he used?  Most abortions are performed via D and E – dilation and extraction, where the cervix is dilated and the fetus (demised) is extracted via tongs.  Both mom and fetus are given anesthesia and the heart stopped (just FYI, this does not indicate life – the heart has its own pacemaker and would beat if you took it out of anyone and placed it in a carefully mixed ionic solution).  There are other methods as well – a hypertonic (super salty) injection can be given to the fetus as well and then the remains extracted.  It’s not this grotesque, gory thing people want to flash it up as (like those scare tactics used on billboards saying – the heart begins beating at conception).  It’s a medical procedure. 
I am also a human being, feminist, and woman as well and I think that Dr. Tiller was a doctor who cared deeply about women’s healthcare and I adamantly support his devotion to providing us with that care.  This is a deep loss for his family and for the women of Kansas.

theattack
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 11:11 am: [report]

@kristy:
You do have a right to have your own opinion, but don’t assume that every unwanted pregnancy occurs because of a lack of contraception or misuse of contraception. Nothing is 100% but abstinence, which isn’t always 100% either when you account for rape, and we’ve all seen the effects of abstinence-only education. It doesn’t work. Young people still have sex. They’re just having it without the knowledge of how to do it safely.
The point is, no matter what your stance on abortion is, be careful making sweeping generalizations about every situation and every pregnancy, because you really don’t know until you’re in that situation yourself.

Sonic
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 11:12 am: [report]

@ Fla_girl: 
“Are you really pro-life or pro-birth?”

I completely agree with you - it’s always so surprising to me how many people who say they are anti-abortion (I won’t say pro-life because I think most people are pro-life) are also pro-war and pro-death penalty.  I just don’t understand - if you support life, you support all life and maintaining it, right?

anhngu
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 11:21 am: [report]

Medical procedures aside, as a person who has had an abortion by choice, I think people who condemn such procedure (whether late-term or not) without having been placed in the exact predicament are ignorant, insensitive and misinformed.

If these alleged “pro-lifers” want to attack late-term abortions, they should go after the women who decided to have the procedure and not the physicians who are willing to help them once the choice has been made.  Although it was not an easy decision, albeit not a “decision” at all in my case, I would gladly stand up and face those who opposed what I chose to do with my body and my future. 

These women made a choice—and I’m sure that the pro-lifers would not be willing to attack the vast amount of women who went through these emotional ordeals as they did with this one innocent vulnerable physician.

VannaMarie
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 11:28 am: [report]

Even the circumstances of a pregnancy occurring in the most irresponsible of situations—no contraceptive measures, someone doesn’t realize they are pregnant/postpone taking a pregnancy test, etc. these may be the individuals who need it most? If they are incapable or not mature enough to try and prevent a pregnancy do you think they will magically be able to be responsible enough to parent a child or initiate the adoption process?

We have all thought it—sometimes people just shouldn’t or aren’t ready to reproduce. Until you see some of the deplorable living conditions of some children and the incredibly damaging effects of poor parenting, I think even some of the morally questionable types of late-term abortions may be more humane than forcing a child through years of such torture.

Again, the right to choose is exactly that. If you don’t support the right to have an abortion, don’t get one.

My heart goes out to Dr. Tiller’s family, co-workers and friends.

sam04
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 11:35 am: [report]

@kristy:  It really disturbs me that you think a woman gets an abortion because she doesn’t want to be pregnant or “not enjoy” their life for nine months. I can’t speak from experience, but I genuinely believe that any woman who has to make that choice suffers for it.  It’s not easy, but sometimes it’s the right thing to do.  I do agree that late-term abortions shouldn’t be performed unless there’s a health risk, though, and I was under the impression that doctors don’t perform late-term abortions without reason.

I sincerely hope that you never find yourself pregnant (despite using contraception carefully), young, alone and scared.  I’m Canadian so I may be wrong, but isn’t it pretty expensive to give birth in the US?

theattack
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 11:45 am: [report]

@sam:
You’re absolutely right. I had an abortion myself about a year and a half ago, and it’s incredibly difficult to deal with. A lot of women undergo counseling for years after the procedure. Emotions are complex, and even when you know you did the right thing, it doesn’t make it any easier to deal with. Abortions are absolutely NOT an easy way out, and neither is going through the pregnancy. Giving birth is very expensive in the US. Abortions aren’t cheap either, though. Really there’s not an affordable option for women in those tough situations. I’m glad to hear that you understand that even if you haven’t gone through it, because it seems that most people who haven’t had one, pro-choice or not, consider it an easy way out.

Ryan
wrote on June 1 2009 @ 12:24 pm: [report]

@Kristy - Another thing to consider is the fact that contraception isn’t very accessible for all women. There was no free birth control at my campus infirmary in Mississippi. Also, pharmacists can refuse to fill b/c perscriptions for personal reasons. That might not affect women in blue states, but in the Deep South there are plenty of pharmacists with moral panic attacks when it comes to contraception. Abortion is the most visible women’s health issue, but it is hardly the only one.

kristy1584
wrote on June 3 2009 @ 12:50 pm: [report]

@ Fla_girl

Note that I said abortion is not justifiable in 98% of cases. I didnt say 100% of cases and what percentage of people get an abortion from rape or incest? Very few Id like to think. I personally was raped and should I have gotten pregnant, I would have had the child and put it up for adoption, youre right it is my CHOICE to have the child and give it life. Also, not many abortions are performed due to the mothers life being at risk either. Medicine has come so far these days that child birth is a simple process in most cases. People who cant afford to have a child dont have to keep it, nor do they have to abort it. Adoption is an option that a lot of you seem to be forgetting. Also, you cannot compare abortion to the dealth penalty because they arent the same. The dealth penalty is punishing someone who has commited a serious crime such as murder or child molestation etc. An innocent child being aborted is completely different. Im not saying that Im for or against the dealth penalty. But I am saying comparing a criminals death to the death of a child whos innocent is not a good arguement.

@sam
I KNOW girls who have gotten abortions just because they didnt want to be pregnant or deal with carrying the child for 9 months. People do it everyday. Its pure selfishness. Im not saying women who have abortions dont suffer because I know for a fact they do. But I also know of some people who have had abortions and dont even think twice about it. They use it as a method of birth control.

loveitlala
wrote on June 6 2009 @ 09:43 pm: [report]

I can’t believe we’re having a conversation about choosing to have sex vs. not in the conversation of late term abortions.  These women chose to have a child by having sex.  Most were actually happy about being pregnant until they found out their child would be conjoined to it’s twin, unlikely to live more than a few months, or forced to undergo three surgeries on the heart in the first year of life that would likely leave the child mentally retarded.  These aren’t necessarily things you can find out early enough in the pregnancy to abort while the fetus is less life-like, no matter the quality of care you recieve.  These are horrible life decisions that most people have no grasp of.  Don’t fool yourself into thinking you understand the horror behind making life and death decisions about a possible future child a month or two before he or she is born.  There is a reason this issue should be left between a woman and her doctor.

PinkRanger
wrote on June 6 2009 @ 11:40 pm: [report]

@loveitlala:I agree with you! Well said.