Thoughts From Guys On Our IM: Are Men Or Women Better At Fighting?

bogart4017
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 08:22 am: [report]

I’m not sure who is better at arguing but i will say this; After 22 years you should know that certain s##t just ain’t gonna change so whats that use in fighting over it? So as soon as she starts i just look at her and blink and it drives her up the wall. Me 1, her 0. Should she continue i just repeat whatever she says. Example: She-How come you have no money on you? Me-No moneey on me? It drives her up the wall. Me-2, her-0. Next, patiently she says “I know you heard me, how come you have no money on you?”. Then i repeat step 1 except to blink faster. She realizes exactly what i’m doing and cracks up laughing. Fight over—Me 3, her-0.
Whats resolved? If im paying for your nails, hair and lunch, i’m not arguing with you whether its cash, check or credit since its my money. Well, resolved at least for this week.
As for going to bed angry—Amelia, that is the best sleep we ever have. When i awake after angry sleep i feel like i slept for a week! Try it sometimes.

_jsw_
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 09:03 am: [report]

I like to debate. I’m good at it. I’ve got a trophy that says I was the best at it in Illinois during one year of high school. I’ve got lots of trophies that show I can debate well.

The problem is that, in relationships, women don’t debate. No one has yet come up to me, angry, and said something like “damn it, Joe, you know that the United States should significantly curtail the export of products with known health hazards!” And they sure as hell don’t follow a format where we each have time to present our case, then be cross examined, then patiently listen to the other. And there’s never a judge in the room. No one to appeal to. No one to win over. No one to say “why yes, that piece of ‘evidence’ about the toilet seat appears to have been fabricated.”

In fact, I wasted years trying to debate during arguments. Because I saw them - as I think a lot of men see them - as factual things which could be settled with a few good references.

But they’re not debates, are they? No. They aren’t. And to treat them as debates leads to another argument about how all I do is try to debate things. Which also frustrated me for years because I’d always say “well, yes, because that’s how you settle these things.”

What I’ve learned - and I realize, all men and women and relationships are different and so this undoubtedly does not apply universally - is that men tend to treat all disagreements as one of two things: (1) a dispute over facts, or (2) a difference of opinion. Type 1 arguments are quickly settled with a bit of Google-foo, although the various references might be seen as unreliable (a Type 2 argument). Type 2 arguments cannot be settled, thus, after we air out opinions and spend a bit of time belittling the other person about how they could possibly disagree, which is often mutual (“you’re an idiot” “not as much of an idiot as you are”), we are done and move on to having a beer or whatnot.

Women, though… you people argue about things we cannot easily grasp. It’s like arguing with a blind person about color. Sure, they understand it intellectually, but not really. And it isn’t even that we don’t understand feelings. We do. We have feelings. We know happy, sad, angry, content, etc. Of course, our perception of feelings compared to yours is like watching YouTube on a cellphone vs. watching Blu-ray HD movies on a 65” HDTV. You just have so much more clarity than we do. And your arguments show that. You’re pointing out issues with the dew drop on the petal of the flower in the field, and we’re all “flower? that’s a flower? I thought it was a duck! I can’t see any of this!”

So, when it comes to arguing with you, we bring toothpicks to a gunfight. We just don’t know how to resolve issues about feelings all that well. We don’t see it as well as you do. And the arguments are often not clear to us as to what the actual issue might be. You might think we hear “I don’t feel as though you love and respect me enough and that you are acting very selfishly. I need some reassurance that I matter to you.” But all we hear is “you never put the toilet seat down.” Because those are the actual words. We do poorly at reading between the lines. Especially because the lines are factual statements that can be contested (“I usually put it down!”) whereas the between-the-lines parts are the feelings, which are like ghosts to us. We get a shivery suspicion that they’re there, but we can’t really be sure what they are for sure, just that they likely don’t bode well.

And even when we’ve matured enough to understand that the words are often the mortar upon which the invisible tiles of feelings are placed, and even once we can perceive the mosaic by looking for the impressions in the mortar that we can see, we don’t always know how to address the issues, so we still flail around.

So, for us? We’re just waiting for it all to end because we hate being confused and we almost always feel that there’s more to the argument that we can see, and even when we do see it, we don’t know how to fix it, and, as fixers, this frustrates us. And also, because it’s not a Type 1 argument, we think it’s just something to accept as a difference and so we move on and just want to go to sleep.

But we really do love you and want and respect you and want to make you happy. We just don’t see arguments as a way of resolving those things.

And yes, I know that not all arguments fundamentally come down to loving you and wanting you and respecting you and wanting to make you happy. But so many of them do. At least, so many of the ones that end up with you fuming in the bed as we try to fall asleep.

Superchicken
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 09:08 am: [report]

It’s good to know that I’m not completely defective as my ex believes.

I’d bring up issues, but I think a lot of being in a relationship is choosing your battles and compromising. Before I’d bring something up that I thought might be an issue, the question I’d always ask myself is “Is going through this argument going to be worth the result?” If the answer was “No”, then why pursue it? Just to be right or win an argument? If there’s no chance of change then you’re just ragging on a person, for instance if the discussion has been raised several times in the past.

But you have to be willing to accept that your mate isn’t going to always agree with you and you have to agree to disagree and that it’s alright if you don’t perfectly align.

Most of the time I don’t want to have an argument because I understand where the other person is coming from, I just don’t agree with them. But if I am going to have an argument, I need time to process the information and get back with the person. It seems that a lot of women want the issue resolved immediately, and that’s not always possible with me when it involves complicated relationship stuff. I’ve been in those situations where I’ve been repeatedly pressed for an answer without the benefit of that time and eventually end up at the point where I say I don’t care and that doesn’t resolve well for anyone. I usually end up bringing it up the next day with my real opinion, but why doesn’t a person just wait for the answer in the first place instead of creating all these bad feelings by demanding an answer that simply isn’t ready?

SouthOC
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 09:22 am: [report]

I used to think the objective of a “relational conflict” was to win.  I’ve learned that the true objective should be understanding and reconciliation.

Here are some of the rules I’ve set for myself:

* Don’t shout.  It brings a natural escalation to the conflict that leads to bad places.

* Never say anything that I can’t take back (like calling names).  No matter how many times you apologize, it can never be erased from the memory.

* Listen.  If I’m only waiting for a pause so that I can say something, I can’t process what she is trying to get me to understand.

* If I get too angry, take a break in order to cool down.  Sometimes I’ll go for a walk.  After I’ve calmed down, I can usually see her point of view.

* If I’ve done or said something stupid, admit I’m wrong and apologize as soon as possible.

* If I’m right, find a different way to get my point across.

*sam*
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 09:31 am: [report]

my SO and I hardly fight. We’ll argue occasionally, but those tend to be very short lived and end with one of us asking the other why we’re so cranky and the other immediately apologizing. However, on the few occasions that we have actually gotten into a heated fight, I’ve “won” every time. I remember after one such case, we “ended” the fight with him apologizing for being such an ass and assuring me that he would make a point to change his behavior (which he has) and me still fuming, taking a walk outside and phoning my best guy friend. Basically, even though the initial conflict was resolved, I was still p*ssed because I felt like he didn’t even bother to pose an opposition during the entire fight! It’s as though every time we “fight” it’s really just me getting upset over something he did or didn’t do, and him agreeing with me the entire time about how much of an ass he was and then apologizing. He has never *once* actually fought back. Instead, he agrees and when I ask for an explanation for his behavior, all I ever get is “I don’t know” or “because I’m an idiot and didn’t think before I acted.” It drives me BONKERS!

*sigh*
needless to say, my guy friend told me that this was because:

a)I don’t fight like most girls. I debate. I wait to present an argument until I have gathered all of my facts in a precise mannor and am ready to present them accordingly. I don’t bother with using emotional arguments unless I can fully substantiate them with facts and examples to properly delineate my case. My SO on the other hand, is blind-sided by this tactic as he is used to to the “typical” girl fight, and therefore is unsure how to handle it.

b)I’m better at debate than he is. He knows this, and is smart enough to not bother with trying to debate back when he sees how clearly I’ve laid out my arguments against him because he knows I will strike them down immediately, as I have already thought them out.

c)I also tend to make it a point to accept any wrong on my part and explain to him the possible rationale behind said behaviors. Therefore, I’ve essentially done “his job” for him, so he likely sees our “argument” as my way of telling him that we have had an issue, I’ve resolved said issue within myself, and am really just telling him about it afterwords. There is no need for him to re-argue the points I’ve already resolved with my rendition of him in my mind.

...and for the record, I told all of this to my SO, and he pretty much agreed. (we haven’t actually “fought” since)

_jsw_
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 09:37 am: [report]

@*sam*: If it doesn’t work out with him, call me. Our arguments would be fun, even though we’d need to wait for someone to show up to judge them.

*sam*
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 09:42 am: [report]

@The Wood: that’s OK. I’m sure we could find *something* to entertain us in the interim

retro chic
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 10:38 am: [report]

I love L’Experienced Guy. Every.Time. :sigh: Good IM today, Amelia.

It is true, we are better at arguing. Even when we lose we win. And why I don’t abuse that. The thought “Hey do you want to be right, or do you want to be here?” is sometimes a way to nip things before they start.

I think the main thing is to cut to the chase, and not relive the offending incident or hone your debating skills on someone. Give each other time and respect to respond. That creates an environment for resolution, the presumed goal. Masturdebation or Scorched Earth don’t cut it for me. It signals someone’s social/emotional evolution to me.
Otoh, for an on/off SO, I had to keep a voice recorder and nanny cam handy when dealing with him in the Court of Leaky Memory and Projected Accusations.

My ex (and daughter’s father) and I seldom argued. He sometimes tried to bait me because, he said, his exwife argued a lot. He thought that meant love. Because of a very volatile father, I always tried to maintain a certain standard of respect with those I love the most – we have to live with each other. I think that’s where my daughter’s calm and secure center come from – the best thing we gave her when we were together.

luke15chick
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 10:42 am: [report]

Court of Leaky Memory, nice. might have to borrow that phrase at some point.

retro chic
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 10:48 am: [report]

^ Anytime, but you may need the surveillance stuff too.

SCRMOM
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 11:23 am: [report]

@bogart4017: My husband does that whole smart-ass routine too.  You might think you’ve won, but we will get back at you for it.  We’re so clever that you might not even know what we did in retribution, but rest assured, that we will do something, and even though you may not know it, we’ll share it with all of our girlfriends so we can laugh at what an idiot you are. 

Just taken from page 69 of the Wife Manual Kidding

luke15chick
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 11:25 am: [report]

hence the brain ninja joke from Dane Cook.

Raugiel
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 02:29 pm: [report]

@ _jsw_ - I feel sorry for you and the women you are arguing with! I would never expect anyone to “read between the lines” to figure out what I really mean. I would consider that either 1) passive agressive,(which is not acceptable) or 2) poor communication.
If a gal is over 18 and can’t say what she means, I advise any guy to break up with her. She can spend some time improving her communication skills.

But, at the same time, dude, how hard is it to figure out that your GF will feel not respected if she’s asked you more than once to do a minor thing (like put the seat down) for her comfort (trust me, sitting in the bowl by mistake is NO FUN), and you just don’t do it?  If your co-worked asked you to do something minor at work (say, quit humming that tune that you’ve had stuck in your head for weeks that is now getting on his nerves) wouldn’t you just do it?

While I think that GF OUGHT to explain how your actions are making her feel to the best of her abilities, sometimes it seems like guys think that basic rules of human relations don’t apply to their romantic relationships.

_jsw_
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 02:36 pm: [report]

@Raugiel: The toilet seat was just as an example.

I learned to put it down when I was a wee lad. Or, I guess, a wee-wee lad.

However, you do bring up a good point: that of “minor” requests being seen as disrespectful when not fulfilled. To know that something minor bothers someone and then to intentionally do it anyway is disrespectful. However, most people have habits that are established, and they will often do those things without realizing it. For example, it took me a long time to close all cabinet and closet doors. I just used to leave them open at times, mainly because I didn’t notice. That act - leaving them open - was considered an act of disrespect, but what she didn’t realize is that I didn’t even know I was doing it. I eventually changed, but I think a lot of people - men <i>and</i<> women - think a partner is being selfish or disrespectful when they often are simply following ingrained behaviors of which they’re no longer consciously aware.

writergirl
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 03:02 pm: [report]

First…

Women, though… you people argue about things we cannot easily grasp. It’s like arguing with a blind person about color.

  Made me laugh so hard, I cried.

I also debate in an argument.  But my husband does too, so it works out.  We rarely argue—mostly because the two of us are pros at taking emotion out of the situation.  A lot of times once you remove emotion, the “problem” disappears.

We do argue—but it is on rare occasions I win.  He’s smarter, for starters, so he’s always about 5 steps ahead of me and that helps him end the argument in his favor and he also deploys Bogart’s tactics which actually drive me up the wall, though, since I wind up laughing, I forget what pissed me off in the first place.

Now…

that of “minor” requests being seen as disrespectful when not fulfilled

This, more than anything, pisses me off.  And I played the good wife and just let certain things slide—like not looking for something before asking me where it was, not asking him to pick his socks up off the floor—for years.  And when I say years, I mean-years.  Until the day about six months ago where I went ballistic.  I mean, I totally and completely flipped. 

But he finally understands how not picking up his socks or expecting me to recall where something is in a moment’s notice or he gets pissed makes me feel like the ‘maid’ and not the ‘wife’. 

I had tried to explain it before, but he either didn’t get it or didn’t listen.  The day I flipped.  He got it.  Not something I would recommend, but it definatley got the point across.

secretsquirrel
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 06:01 pm: [report]

Wow, I’m like the men.  I don’t want to argue.  Let’s get this over with, it’s done (and by “done,” I mean he’s had his say, I’ve had mine), let’s move on.  My ex and I decided to divorce in November (5 years ago).  He was going to live in our basement until he could find a place of his own and save up some money.  Every day after work, he wanted to go over why, why, why again.  I’m sorry, you might not LIKE the answer, but asking the question a different way (every. single. day) won’t get you a different answer.  It gets you the same answer, over and over again.

I asked him to move out 3 weeks later.

retro chic
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 10:53 pm: [report]

Yeah, I don’t like to argue (either). He doesn’t like to discuss (so much). I get the technical issues commenters have here. I’m more about the larger, intimacy angle. Daring to go there and deal head-on. So ultimately I’m better at it.

What’s most important here: winning or true intimacy? Just surviving in a frustrated relationship or thriving in a really good one?

@bogart: so glad to hear that’s workin’ for you.

@jsw: all you had to say is you’re a gemini.
Great writing.

_jsw_
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 11:00 pm: [report]

@retro chic: Absolutely, thriving in a really good one trumps surviving a really frustrating one.

@jsw: all you had to say is you’re a gemini.

That would have been substantially easier to write. I’ll keep that in mind the next time I feel myself heading off on a rant.

retro chic
wrote on October 21 2009 @ 11:52 pm: [report]

Absolutely, thriving in a really good one trumps surviving in a really frustrating one.

Thanks for fixing that for me

That would have been substantially easier to write. I’ll keep that in mind the next time I feel myself heading off on a rant. smirk

heehee. Oh. That was a rant? Pray tell – rant on. Gemini men are facile, charming, insightful writers. Did I say charming?

GreyWolf
wrote on October 22 2009 @ 07:29 am: [report]

A major problem with arguing with women is that you (women) don’t know HOW to win.  If we agree with you, you’re still not satisfied (see *sam* above).  So often we realise that arguing is a no-win situation for us.  If we win the argument, you’re not happy because you’ve lost.  If you win, and we agree with you, you’re still mad because of whatever it was that started the argument.

The other problem is that if we win, you feel bad.  Believe it or not, we don’t want to make you feel bad.  Often, we’ll let you win the argument with no intention of changing ourselves, simply because we don’t want to hurt you by pointing out we are right.  Seriously. 

Then, we get accused of being passive-aggressive by agreeing with you but not changing.  It’s just not a winnable situation for us. 

We are much better able to deal with our own frustration at your point of view or your refusal to see that we are right than we are able to deal with hurting you.  So we don’t try to win.  Sorry, but it’s true.

C.Munro
wrote on October 22 2009 @ 12:59 pm: [report]

One of the (many) reasons I make a lousy boyfriend is that when the fighting starts, I’m out.  As in, entirely out of the relationship.  It’s just unnecessary drama, and not at all fun.  I refuse to participate, because as others have mentioned, it is impossible for it to end with anything resembling a good outcome for us males.  And don’t even bring up make-up sex, because no matter what I say to end the argument, I do not feel like putting out after somebody’s put me through that crap. 

If I do something thoughtless, sure, call me out on it.  I’ll probably apologize and make an effort to be more considerate.  Then let it go.  I promise to do the same for you.

*sam*
wrote on October 22 2009 @ 01:05 pm: [report]

@c.munro: I’m curious. If you never stick around to resolve any issues, how do you ever intend to maintain a relationship for more than a few months? Fighting is inevitable, whether it be between friends or lovers.

equnsuocha
wrote on October 22 2009 @ 01:18 pm: [report]

What makes me crazy is when women turn on the water works to win and arguement.  Hey honey, you didnt win crap , you just made that man feel guilty and panic so he gave in.  What did you accomplish aside from setting back the rest of us 50 years?

On the male side what makes me nuts are answers to genuine questions that consist of “because” and “I dont know”  MAKE ME NUTS.  Those answers are acceptable as a teenager but once you are wearing big boy pants you should be able to formulate a sentence.

C.Munro
wrote on October 22 2009 @ 01:23 pm: [report]

Frankly, I never have maintained a relationship longer than a few months.  Like I said, I make a lousy boyfriend. 

That said, I simply don’t see the kind of fighting that happens between men and women in romantic partnerships as resolving issues.  It’s just conflict that the women seem to use to derive some sense of validation.  A conflict that erodes the men it doesn’t drive away. 

I don’t have those kinds of fights with my friends.  I have disagreements with my friends (both men and women).  These disagreements are civil, even interesting at times.  They are the foundation of discussion, and help to expand one’s point of view.  If there’s any kind of issue to be resolved, this is the way to do it.

*sam*
wrote on October 22 2009 @ 01:33 pm: [report]

@c.munro: well, at least you’re not under the illusion that “your perfect, it’s all the women who are nuts!”

seriously though, I can see your point, sort of. I think that if you really tried to stick it through with someone long enough to get past the initial “I’m really mad at you and am therefore lashing out!!” part, then things really can be resolved. Women really can be volatile creatures (myself included) and when the emotions of a romantic relationship are entered into it, things get all kinds of crazy. It just takes a guy to be able to handle the crazy bits and a woman to realize that she’s being irrational for it to work.

that’s MHO anyway

MuchoMacho
wrote on October 26 2009 @ 01:46 pm: [report]

she just has to grind at every issue until it is DUST!  i make my point, she makes hers, one or the other of us changes their mind, and if its her, the argument is over.  if its me, even changing my mind isnt enough.  she has to repeat and reexplain her point.  even once shes won.  and dont get me started on “agreeing to disagree”.  there is NO SUCH THING…  not according to my gf, lol…

SouthOC
wrote on October 27 2009 @ 04:34 pm: [report]

My wife and I used to fight more than we do now.  At first we carried the nasty techniques into battle that we had learned in previous relationships. At times it got pretty ugly.  Eventually we learned that we’re on the same side, and the sooner we make up, the sooner we can… you know…