Sarkozy Says Burqas Aren’t Welcome In France

LotusFlower43
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 02:10 pm: [report]

Honestly, this is one of the dumbest public policies regarding Muslims and Muslim women I have heard yet.  In modern Islam wearing a burqa or hejab is a choice.  Leave it up to the French Muslim women to decide if they want to wear it.

missduplicity
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 02:21 pm: [report]

@LotusFlower -

See, knowing that it is a choice for them makes me feel like Sarkozy is on the right track. It’s a choice within Islam, but it doesn’t have to be a choice for a French citizen. I’d have a problem with this if a burqa was “required” by the faith. But since wearing a burqa is not requisite to the faith, Sarkozy isn’t really limiting the practice of their faith.

If a Muslim woman residing in France feels that she wants to wear a burqa, she still has the option to move to a place where they are permitted, just like if I were a Muslim extremist and wanted to stone homosexuals, I’d have to move to Iran.

I think this was a great idea. It may be “limiting” in some ways, but I’m sure Sarkozy sees it as a way to keep extremists out of his country. Some families considering immigration to France may rethink the idea if they aren’t permitted to wear the burqa. I think that’s what Sarkozy wants.

Although I do hope that he’s banning other religious garb—like those hideous Amish dresses—in public as well.

DancerNinja
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 02:29 pm: [report]

If France is a place of freedom, the they should let women who want wear a burqa. However, I think I read a case on TheFrisky where stores have started not allowing burqas and face coverings into their stores due to people taking advantage of the covering and robbing stores. So let the people wear the burqa in public, but let stores still have the “right to refuse service”.

emflow
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 02:30 pm: [report]

I don’t see how discrimination against a particular religious group makes anything better for the women in that group.

Also, doesn’t this policy increase the chances of oppression? It seems to me that a woman who is being coerced is a lot more likely to be kept at home, a virtual prisoner, so she doesn’t “shame” herself or her family because of this law.

Annika Harris
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 02:50 pm: [report]

@emflow I totally agree with you. Islam isn’t the only religion in which women are sometimes encouraged to cover their hair or bodies. Unless Sarkozy plans on preventing nuns from wearing habits also, I don’t think he has a leg to stand on. Also, their are some sects within Judaism that require women to wear a head covering of some sort. Is Sarkozy going to ban those also? I doubt it.

Riley
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 02:51 pm: [report]

Laws that single-out religions and ethnicities are always the best.  Yeah, nothing wrong with that.  Guess because it isn’t his religion is is ok.

LotusFlower43
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 02:51 pm: [report]

@missduplicity-
In Islam it is a choice but women should be free to choose it.  Telling them that it is illegal to where is burqa is like telling a nun she is not allowed to wear a habit in public or telling a Jewish man he is not allowed to wear a yamaka.  It is not giving them freedom it is restricting them from practicing there religion the way they wish to practice.

robertsmithshairspray
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 03:21 pm: [report]

Probably been said, but doesn’t banning Burqas being totally hypocritical? It’s going from saying these woman have to wear something, to saying they’re now not allowed to, that’s #&@$%.

babaloo
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 03:23 pm: [report]

part of the point of the hijab and burqa is to hide the woman because women are so inherently sexual and tempting that men should not be expected to control thier own desire.  I’m being a bit sarcastic but that is part of the point.  That’s why women pray at the back of the mosque, so that their bums aren’t up in the air waving around near men.  I think that’s the type of intolerance (that women can’t be trusted and men shouldn’t be expected to control their own desires and urges) that the burqa ban is meant to address.  Wearing a hijab is a choice theoretically, but many women don’t actually get to choose.

jimnist10
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 03:41 pm: [report]

Ok, Ok. I REFUSE to believe that women CHOOSE to be covered head-to-toe in the summer heat and humidity. Yeah, they “choose” it because they’ve been brainwashed to think that that’s what they’re only option is, yet their husbands and sons run around in tshirts and shorts. The burka is an expression of EXTREME (and outdated) religious beliefs. It’s like female genital mutiliation or NOT wearing condoms because it contriubtes to the spread of AIDS (ah-hem Pope Benedict!) or because you’re somehow denying God his right to have more children on this earth. Both are extreme practices that come out of outdated, silly, irrational religious/cultural beliefs.

And before my fellow readers start jumping all over me, I’d like to say that it’s the same thing with extremes on the other side of the “religion scale”, if you will.  In real life, looking like something that just stepped off the pages of Playboy or a being a living Barbie doll is hardly attractive and yet that extreme still prevails in the minds of many people because they’ve been brainwashed to think that Pam Anderson/Barbie is somehow ideal, just as extreme Islam seems to think that women should be covered and have no means of expression or selfhood at all. The difference is that you can choose to be a Barbie and you can find other means of expression. That’s not possible in extremist Islam. Go read “Infidel” by Ayan Hirsi Ali. You really get a feel for what the plight of women in Islam is and how difficult it is to “break free”.

As for Sarkozy, I understand his effort and quite frankly, I don’t have a problem with trying to limit extreme forms and expressions of any religion. I mean, Scientology, which some think is a religion, is having some “issues” in France currently (I think they’re trying to ban it?). And most rational people can agree that Scientology is a little creepy at the very least.

G-Had
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 03:52 pm: [report]

I actually support this. If you’re that opposed to Western customs, then go home and don’t try to live off Western states. (To any other Canadians out there, have you read “Shakedown”?) I also wonder if women whose menfolk put them under house arrest as a result of this law won’t find THAT intolerable and begin pushing for greater freedom (better education, more economic power, etc.). You can’t keep grinding people down forever; eventually they always rebel.

relright
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 04:01 pm: [report]

Believe it or not woman really do CHOOSE this. While there of course some women that have been brainwashed they are not all. Many women of the Islamic faith truly would feel excessively uncomfortable about going out in public without the burqa on.

Their religion truly says to them that a woman’s beauty and integrity should be protected at all costs. One of these stipulations is to remain covered.

Some women even say that this is liberating for them and I agree. Who wouldn’t want to be respected for more than how their boobs look? To be respected for their intelligence and personality. Many women who wear hijab (which is MUCH more than just the head scarf or khimar! It is a style of dress) are still way into fashion and life. They are not held behind bars!

They just live their life with other values, ideals, and goals that may be alien to western culture but aren’t necessarily wrong.

Also to say that discrimination towards Muslims is an ethnic persecution as suggested by some of the commenters here is a MASSIVE misunderstandment of Islam. Islam is actually one of the most open to many races and backgrounds. Muslims of many races call each other brother and sister and mean it.

If you’d like to see some blogs that show you that Muslims can be just like you and I, may I suggest Hijab Style ( http://hijabstyle.blogspot.com/ ) or Hegab Rehab( http://hegab-rehab.blogspot.com/ )or Slice of Lemon (http://sliceoflemon.com/ ) from England, Australia, and the US. All three are done by intelligent women who talk about the difficulties of dressing Modestly in Western culture. Many of these difficulties steming from the prejudices of people that have opinions much like you guys.

The fact is, as an Arab Studies major, I have encountered many women who wear hijab as a choice and would never remove their scarves or immodest clothing because of their faith in their god Allah and everything their religion teaches them. MANY of these girls were even begged by their parents to not wear hijab because they are afraid that it will interfere with their studies or interactions with others.

So don’t you DARE accuse all Muslim women of being brainwashed, naive, or anything like that.

In fact I think that maybe the Frisky could have a guest column from one of the bloggers I talk about and maybe do a little style post on how to dress modestly. I’ve seen plenty of outfits or items on these blogs that I’d TOTALLY wear without the hijab out and about.

So sorry about this post. I just feel like many people’s prejudices about Muslims come from their true ignorance. Many people that say these sorts of nasty things about Muslim women who have just never met one or tried to talk to one.

relright
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 04:05 pm: [report]

Oh and if any of you even DARE to go to any of those blogs and harrass these lovely nice women with your comments or rude statements I hope you choke on your next meal or die an old maid without a spouse or child.

Kati-Anne
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 04:18 pm: [report]

On one hand, I completely understand why France would want to ban the burqa. It IS a symbol of oppression, it DOES take away the woman’s identity. However, I find the idea of the state taking to the street to enforce a ban on an article of clothing equally as creepy. Change is going to have to happen within the Muslim community. Young Muslim women are already changing the face of Islam in the West. What we have to remember is that there will always be extremists and fundamentalists in EVERY religion. It’s unlikely we can legislate them into feminists.

lea322
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 04:26 pm: [report]

relright makes some good points. I think that Western culture often makes assumptions about it’s superiority, and generally without realizing it. It’s one thing to SAY we value other cultures, but the true test of that is allowing people to live the way they believe is best, as long as no one is being harmed. If these women do not feel imposed upon, it’s not necessarily up to us to convince them that they actually are.

From what I understand, many women who chose to wear a burqa also wear modern clothing underneath. And I don’t believe they ever wear burqas in their homes. I also wonder if anyone who shouts “oppression!” has actually spoken to a woman in a burqa. Maybe WE are the ones alienating these women by looking at their coverings and then looking the other way.

lea322
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 04:28 pm: [report]

@kati-anne It’s only a symbol of oppression in the eyes of Western culture, from what I understand.

babaloo
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 05:05 pm: [report]

@lea322 & @relright
a friend of mine who wears hijab must change into her hijab clothing in her home if any of her brother-in-laws come over because it’s inappropriate for a woman to be seen even by family.  When I asked why she said it was because IF her sister were to die she could marry her brother-in-law, not that she would, but because there *could* be a sexual relationship in the future, it was not ok to wear the clothes she wanted in her own home.  If a woman actually gets to choose, go for it.  The point is, even in countries where there’s supposed to be freedom, because the women don’t want to be alienated from their families, they submit.  They don’t get a choice because, really, their choice often is to be “free” and totally alone (no family) or to cover up.

relright
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 05:49 pm: [report]

Well I think it should also be remembered that there are many things that people are forced do to appease their families for cultural reasons.

Such as take care of their parents, marry early, many many things.

But most of the violent and super-enforcement seen and criticized such as death or honor rapes or whatever of the likes are CULTURAL vestiges.

And also the people that are saying that these women can up and move to Saudi Arabia should remember that many of these women and their families have been in France and other western countries for centuries. So suggesting that they should go anywhere else is ruder than rude. I have a Pakistani Muslim friend who’s great-great-many-great grandpa first moved here in the 1860s. Many of our ancestors can’t even claim that. And no one’s suggesting you up and move somewhere else are they?

Kate2009
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 08:14 pm: [report]

Relright, you really undermined your credibility with that wackadoo second post.

emflow
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 09:07 pm: [report]

I’m not comfortable with women wearing the burqa, mainly because similarly observant men aren’t required to completely cover their bodies. It labels the female body as something sinful and dangerous. And I do believe that some maybe even many women are pressured to accept this mode of dress. However, we are all subject to social pressure to conform to certain standards, the burqa is just a particularly visible expression of that.

But if we assume every women in a burqa is oppressed and needs to be saved in some way, then we’re invalidating that choice and reducing those women victims. In that case, we’re saying they don’t have the intelligence or strength to decide, so we will decide for them. Possibly some of those women need help, but not all of them. And when we, or the French government, make that decision for them we’re trading one (possible) form of oppression for another, more subtle and potentially more dangerous, form of oppression.

relright
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 09:08 pm: [report]

Fine agreed, however I claim anger clouding my judgement. I’m just so sick of these types of things that everyone is saying.

emflow
wrote on June 22 2009 @ 09:19 pm: [report]

Note: when I said the burqa “labels the female body as something sinful and dangerous” I did not mean that as a blanket statement to cover every person who approves of burqas. My point there was that it has the potential to portray the female body as unacceptable, rather then preserving sanctity, particularly in radical interpretations of Islam.

Sorry for any confusion or insult.

Mohammed
wrote on June 23 2009 @ 12:25 am: [report]

Women are empowered in France by sending them to BROTHELS AND NUDE RAMP SHOWS, FLESH TRADE, PROSTITUTION and THIS SHOWS A” GREAT DIGNITY” TO WOMEN, as per SARKOZY. BURQA CLAD WOMEN CANNOT HAVE GOOD CLIENTS TO SELL THEIR BODIES THEREFORE THIS IS LOWER EMPOWERMENT AND SLAVERY and PRIMITIVE.FEMINISM AT GREAT HEIGHTS,
NUDISM IS THE FASTEST GROWING RELIGION

titsmagee
wrote on June 23 2009 @ 06:15 am: [report]

I work in a restaurant and my boss and his wife are from Afghanista. They tell me a lot about their culture and their faith and one day I asked him why his wife didn’t wear a burqa. He explained that only fundamentalists and some very traditional families force women to wear them. Older women, for instance, wear them because they are traditional and modest-befitting a grandmother image. Their grandmothers wore them so they wear them. For most women it is a choice…sometimes a way to show commitment to their faith or a way to hide their bodies in dangerous areas. What some people may not realize is that while the authorities in many Muslim countries are so preoccupied with war, drugs, and political issues, some local crimes go unnoticed. In these dangerous places, a woman wearing plain clothes, Western garb, or even revealing clothing is more likely to be accosted by a predatory male. This is why even non-fundamentalists often ask their female relatives and friends to wear burqas and accompany them in public.

Here in America, my boss’s wife and daughter wear clothes from Target and Charlotte Russe. We see many families from Saudi Arabia, Serbia, Iran and oftentimes women wear Western clothes and headscarves or full burqas. I can tell you from talking to these women that they show no embarrassment about their appearance. Their burqas are the result of a choice as is the option of praying 5 times a day or twice a day. The Muslim faith doesn’t put people in a box and tell them to all be the same. It is adaptable and allows for the differences in its followers. The main demand is that people act with a consideration of others and live according to the most universal moral codes—no different than most religions.

emflow
wrote on June 23 2009 @ 06:48 am: [report]

@titsmagee
Thanks for posting - I hadn’t thought about the burqa from that perspective.

Britrz
wrote on June 23 2009 @ 09:51 pm: [report]

I’m going to emphasize a point that relright made concerning the burqa as a means of empowerment.  Many women who choose to wear this clothing see it not as an oppressive garment, but instead of a way to be valued for their personality and intelligence as opposed to their appearance.  Looking at it from a Western perspective, we might see it as something that puts women below men, yet many who wear it see it as an equalizer.  One who looks at this issue must view it from a different perspective, to see that this wardrobe choice is not limiting but freeing.

Kate2009
wrote on June 23 2009 @ 10:29 pm: [report]

I really cannot understand how covering up my entire body is an equalizer.  Why should I have to completely cover my body and face in order to have people value me for my personality and intelligence?  Why am I not entitled to the same respect as a man, who is not required to wear the burqua?  The burqua is cumbersome and inconvenient, and I don’t see why women should have to bear it but men are free to comfortably move their way through the world.  There is nothing equal about it.

Britrz
wrote on June 24 2009 @ 02:17 pm: [report]

@Kate2009, you may not see it like that, as our culture does not view the female body in the same way.  One must look at it from a different perspective altogether.  In some Muslim cultures the female body is something, as relright stated before, that is irresistible to a male sexually.  Though in your mind this might be a distorted view, if you look at the situation from that perspective, a burqa would in fact be empowering.  In order to truly see their view, one cannot look at the situation from a Western perspective, but instead from their view point.  So, Kate2009, it may not be an equalizer to cover up your body, but don’t support Sarkozy and in turn punish the women who see it like that.

lahnne
wrote on June 24 2009 @ 05:22 pm: [report]

(I’m going to excuse myself to any of the Français(e) first in case anyone disagrees- this is both my own opinion AND that of a number of FRENCH sociologists I’ve had the pleasure of studying under)

I think it’s important to point out that the French mentality tends to differ a little from an Anglo/American mentality in that the French find the ability to fit in really really awesome. You do what you can to draw honor/respect/recognition to yourself, but you shouldn’t be splashy or blatant about it. And the burqa is a little… difficult to ignore. So my guess would be that in addition to the whole “western perspective” that undoubtedly plays a role in this debacle, Sarko’s nationality is a player, too… (and there’s already laws banning other religious symbols- including crosses, stars of david- in places like schools.)

lea322
wrote on June 24 2009 @ 05:55 pm: [report]

I think a huge issue at play here is that when we look at things from our own cultural perspective, we tend to misinterpret things. All those people chanting “Death to America!” are probably also operating under a false perspective of Western culture and why we do what we do. The controversy surrounding burqas falls into the same category. When the idea of the burqa originated, it was done in order to equalize and honor women. Over time, that may have been warped by people, but that was the intention, and it still is to many people. NO ONE is completely correct in their perspective, and instead of making blanket statements about what women with different views, we should try to educate ourselves and attempt to live in peace with as many people as we can.

titsmagee
wrote on June 25 2009 @ 08:52 am: [report]

@Britrz

You are exactly right to point out that we need to look at this from their perspective. It all comes down to social mores. In olden times, women in Western countries wore huge dresses that concealed their legs and feet (think Anna and the King). To show their feet or calves was scandalous. In Western countries, that is no longer a taboo item to show. Hell, we have Lady Gaga prancing around without pants on and people love her. In many Muslim countries, however, it is still considered slightly improper to show too much of the female form. It’s also something that is considered too special to show off. When I talked to my boss who is from Afghanistan (see earlier comment), he said that many women want to save that for their husbands.

CraftLass
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 08:05 am: [report]

What’s really annoying about burquas and any other form of religious or cultural requirements to be modest is the underlying thought process that men simply can not control themselves and the implied notion that this attitude is just fine and excuses them from wrong behavior.  It’s like the old “she was asking for it” because she was wearing a mini-skirt or whatever defense for rape.  I think that’s more insulting to men than women, frankly.  Society should teach men to be responsible for their actions, not limit women’s freedom for their own safety.

Of course, when men are not allowed to think of women’s bodies as a normal thing to see, it’s a little more understandable that they’d go crazy the moment they did see one.

I have trouble with the idea of a law banning anything, I think governments should have no place in dictating how we dress, what we say, or any limits to personal freedom that don’t cause harm to others.  Besides, my experience with limiting personal expression in clothing makes me think it’s always a failure.  I wore a uniform to Catholic school for years and every year they came up with some new rule to prevent the girls from competing and differentiating themselves.  Girls would compete using their shoes, so they banned all but penny loafers and saddle shoes.  We moved on to jewelry, so they banned any but simple stud earrings and necklaces with crosses.  And so on.  I realize that one elementary/middle school is not the same as a whole country, but my point is that when you ban one thing you just turn around to find something else to ban and it’s a bad precedent.

However, I don’t believe that the burqua’s intent was to honor women, that sounds like propaganda to me.  Same with the whole Adam and Eve story, making countless generations of women believe they are responsible for man’s expulsion from paradise and we need to somehow make up for it, so I’m not attacking specifically Islam on this as much as men of all cultures being pretty darn clever about opressing women through religious manipulation.  ALL the major religions have elements of female oppression, and the more fundamentalist the religion, the more women get screwed.

I’m sorry if anyone finds this comment insulting to their religion, that’s not my intention, but women should take a good look at the methods men have used throughout history to keep us in our place so we can learn how to keep it from happening now or in the future.

So, no, governments shouldn’t dictate how we dress any more than what we say, that’s just as bad as theocracy or forced atheism a la communist societies, not to mention it’s yet another man trying to tell us what we can do.

titsmagee
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 09:27 am: [report]

@craftlass I hate to be rude, but you really just sound like a man-hater. Regardless of the varying origins of the burqa, the reasons women wear them today is the relevant point. Choosing to conceal your body because of tradition or because you want your husband to be the only one to appreciate it is not at all the same thing as a man forcing you to wear something as an oppressive measure. And if any woman were to walk down a dark alley and hope to not get raped, can’t we all agree that a burqa would be a safer option than a mini-skirt?

I consider myself a pretty modest dresser—not because ladies are conventionally supposed to be, but because I feel more comfortable that way. And since I wouldn’t show my nekkid self to just anyone, I can understand why a Muslim woman would want to wear a burqa to make her body private to herself and her husband. The reasons I’ve pointed out for wearing a burqa are not from my point of view or from the Quran, they are from a modern Muslim man and his wife living in America. He explained it to me and I really just posted it here to expose a different opinion.

Again, I hope I wasn’t rude. I just think that we shouldn’t impose our point of view on a completely different culture.

CraftLass
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 10:19 am: [report]

@titsmagee: You’re not being rude, you’re expressing a thoughtful opinion that I could understand getting from my late-night rant, though I’m so not a man-hater!  Love most men, not so fond of anyone who tries to suppress my right to be me, male or female.  I also think all people should be able to dress however they want, regardless of what any government, family, culture, or whatever authority s/he subscribes to thinks about it.  From naturalists to wearers of habits and burquas, it’s all good as long as it’s your choice.

Yet I still think women should look into how things got to where they are, and how ancient to medieval cultures are still affecting our daily lives and the way we view ourselves.  Men in power, not all men, but those with power hundreds to thousands of years ago came up with rules that a 21st-century woman should live by just because of her fate in being born to a certain family in a certain place?

I was raised in a religion and culture that is historically one of the worst offenders when it comes to women’s rights, and even as a child it was easy to see that there was massive inequality condoned by religious beliefs that were spread by use of propaganda throughout history.  I don’t know how to not get angry about what my ancestors had to go through.  I don’t know how to not get angry about what many of my contemporaries have to go through, just because their fate was to be born without a Y-chromosome.

It’s the old doomed to repeat history thing that gets me riled up and makes me look at how we got where we are.  Accepting something because you truly believe in it?  Great, more power to you.  Accepting something because it’s just the way things are or a politician or celebrity or even your parents says it should be so?  Not good.