Rewriting The Rules Of Etiquette: What’s In a Name?
Posted by: Wendy Atterberry
Filed in:
relationships
12:30PM, Thursday April 9th 2009
A couple weeks ago I addressed the issue of a woman changing her name when she marries. I expressed that although I don’t plan to change my name when I get hitched this summer, I respect and appreciate every woman’s right to choose what’s best for her. I reject the notion some have expressed that when a woman takes her husband’s last name she’s giving up her identity.
But then I had an interesting conversation with my mother recently that added a whole new layer to this name and identity dichotomy. I’ve been working on wedding invitations and I’m in the middle of finalizing a guest list and collecting addresses, so I shot my mom an email to make sure I had the most current addresses of our family members, and I also asked how I should formally address certain people on the envelopes. I figured that my mother and grandmother, being total old-school traditionalists, would prefer to be addressed with their husbands as Mr. and Mrs. TheirHusband’sFirstAndLastName, but I wasn’t sure about everyone else. How, for example, should I address my aunt who’s divorced but retained her married name?
My mother’s reply sort of shocked me.
As I expected, she expressed her desire to be addressed as Mrs. MyDad’sFullName, but said that etiquette dictated that all married women who share their husband’s last name be addressed as such, and that divorced women who retain their married names, like my aunt, should be addressed as Mrs. — not Ms., as I assumed — TheirFullName. Most surprising to me, my mother said that even when a card is sent just to her, like a birthday card or Mother’s Day card, she prefers to be addressed as Mrs. My Dad’s Full Name and not, as I’d assume, Mrs. Her Full Name! “Your grandmother prefers that as well,” she said, “We’ve talked about it.” She says that addressing a woman as Mrs. Her First and Last Name would imply that she’s divorced, and a card addressed without a title at all is just plain “impolite.” “Google the etiquette rules if you don’t believe me,” she said.
Well, I did Google the rules; I even took the bible of social rules, “Emily Post’s Etiquette (16th Edition)” down off the shelf, and was astonished to find that my mom is pretty much correct. The book and almost every link I found said it was proper etiquette to address the envelope of a married couple as Mr. and Mrs. John S. Smith without any regard to the woman’s first name at all. In my brief search I found just one exception, which expressed clearly: “Either use both first names when addressing a married couple or no first names at all. Avoid the Mr. and Mrs. John Doe. (it is old fashioned and usually makes the wife feel owned by her husband).” Using no first names on mail addressed to married couples is the tradition I’ve adopted as an adult, never realizing that both my mother and grandmother find it disrespectful because it’s not in keeping with traditional rules of etiquette.
My mother says the etiquette rule that trumps all others when it comes to names is to call a person what he or she wishes to be called, which is a rule that’s surely timeless. But what about in situations when one doesn’t know how a person wishes to be addressed and it’s impractical to ask (like when you have to address 100 invitations, for example)? If we’re to fall back on the general rules of etiquette, isn’t it time that those rules reflect modern culture and not the traditions of the 1950s or earlier?
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joyy
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:38 pm: [report]
Yep. My neighbor (who was our home ec/life skills teacher in my hs) told me that back in the 70s, she thought using Mrs. HerFirst TheirLastName was normal, and an older lady explained that you only do that if your husband is deceased!
I like the HisFirst & HerFirst LastName - but good luck on how to sort that out for 100 invitations. Hopefully you know all your guests well enough to know what would or wouldn’t offend them and go from there.
(I’ll quietly file this under the supershallowpointless reasons I’m happy to not be into marraige
)
Wendy Atterberry
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:43 pm: [report]
Luckily, *I* don’t have 100 invitations to send out (I’m not even sending half that!).
loveitlala
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:43 pm: [report]
Just wait until you get to the thank you cards after the wedding. The inside “Dear blah” is hard too. I have relatives who aren’t my aunts who want to be called Aunt Florence and things like that.
The last time I was in Borders there were like 20 HUGE etiquette rules strictly for weddings. Crazy!
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:43 pm: [report]
This is the kind of #&@$% that needs to get changed in the world. I can’t believe people put time and effort into this kind of stuff, I know that there are etiquette schools, but seriously this is sooooo antiquated.
loveitlala
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:44 pm: [report]
I mean 20 huge etiquette rule books.
bogart4017
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:45 pm: [report]
Ok this is complicated and i’m a little lazy. As long as my wife took my last name i’m fine (even if she hyphenated). Nobody refers to her as Mrs-my-first-and-last-name unless thats the way she filled out the application, ok? Invitations came as Mr & Mrs-my-first-and-last-name. Other than that she is Mrs-her-first-name-my-last-name or Mrs or Ms-her-first-name-hypen-maiden-name-hypen-my-last-name. Whew!
nemesis1
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:52 pm: [report]
Maybe we should consider the fact that women file 70% of divorces instead of worrying about nonsensical crap.
laura
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:53 pm: [report]
i remember getting married and consulting emily on matters large and small (i kind of like the convenience of ettiquette, it sometimes eliminates overthinking), but now that i am divorced (and have reverted to my unmarried name), i would find it bizarre for anyone to address me as ‘mrs.’
Wendy Atterberry
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 12:56 pm: [report]
Laura, according to Emily, a divorced woman is only called “Mrs.” if she keeps her married name. Still kinda strange, if you ask me, which is why I think the rules ought to be changed to reflect modern culture.
Arty
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 01:22 pm: [report]
When I was planning on getting married, I knew there was no way in hell I was going to address anyone as Mrs. HisFullName or even Mr. and Mrs. Husband’sFirstAndLastName because, as the exception stated, it implies ownership of the wife by the husband, or that by being married, the woman takes loses her own identity and takes on that of “So and So’s Wife.”
There ARE more important things than sticking with old fashioned patriarchal etiquette rules. And if one of my old aunts was offended that I used her OWN NAME in an invitation was something I was willing to risk in order to stick to not compromise my values.
If people of our generation don’t change crap like this then who will?
fallonthecity
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 01:32 pm: [report]
The rules on this are way over-complicated.
People should really try not to get offended by this sort of thing. Of all the etiquette rules you can break, calling a divorced woman Ms. instead of Mrs. or vice versa is probably the least of my worries!
PinkRanger
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 01:43 pm: [report]
@nemesis1:a divorce is caused by 2 people, no matter who files for it. stop trying to get your kicks by saying things you know will make women angry on WOMEN’S SITES. This post is just a discussion, no where on here does it say that this is one of the most pressing issues women face today, its just to start conversation and discussion, and a very interesting discussion in my mind.
bittermelon
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 02:50 pm: [report]
Being called Mrs. Husband’s First and Last Name drives me batty. Esp since I didn’t change my name. Even if someone changes their last name, I don’t understand why the husband’s first name is used when addressing her.
My MIL always addresses any correspondence to me this traditional way. I find it disrespectful to me b/c it’s not my name. Use my freaking name.
I agree with missinformation, do away with this practice. If someone gets upset that their own name is being used, they’ve got too much time on their hands.
Don’t even get me started on people who expect to be addressed as “Dr.” Unless you’re being addressed at work, why would that be necessary?
retro chic
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 03:39 pm: [report]
Wendy, consider this pre-nuptial minutiae your rehearsal for ennndless labor pains before the blessed event. Unless you’re a glutton for punishment, focus on the life afterwards.
Since you cannot poll everyone on your list, I would correct any glaring errors due to death, divorce and spelling—print and mail ‘em. Check. On to N° 237 on that list gripped in one hand, and a glass of wine in the other. Cheers!
The Spartan Sweetheart
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 04:05 pm: [report]
I worked in a summer camp office, and we addressed hundreds of parent letters every week. For married couples, we addressed them on the outside as “Mr. Steve Smith and Mrs. Jane Smith.” If we received info with two different last names but one address, we just strung them together: “Ms. Jane Doe and Mr. Steve Smith.”
If we weren’t sure, we always went with “Ms.”
We had all sorts of complicated stuff with certain parents, like wanting two different letters to two addresses, letters only addressed to personal assistants, etc.
IDK if that helps at all, since we were obviously less formal than a wedding, but it does serve to reiterate that this #&@$% is CONFUSING.
vanya
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 04:06 pm: [report]
I’m usually so excited to get mail that isn’t a bill, it doesn’t really occur to me to be angry about how it’s addressed
EarthGoddess
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 04:33 pm: [report]
@vanya: LOL ... me, too. If I’m invited to a wedding/party/special occasion, I’m more concerned with what I’ll be wearing to said event than I am about what’s on the envelope.
retro chic
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 05:02 pm: [report]
@vanya, exaaactly! I’m just happy to receive the invite, usually from those that I want to be there for anyway! Who cares?
And, most people wouldn’t notice or mind a minor invite etiquette faux pas, the 1 or 2 that do, so what? They’re probably on the “Have-to Invite” list—not the “Want-to Invite” one, anyway. Their’s and The bride’s lives will go on.
ps: Wendy, what advice did you receive about, or has anyone had any experience, with emailing said wedding invites? Wouldn’t that end it all? Pretty little generic printed mementos can be available at the wedding if the real feel is needed, but without the etiquette issues.
Wendy Atterberry
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 05:10 pm: [report]
I didn’t read or receive any advice about email invites other than people telling me to send them if I felt like it. In the end, it just felt a little nicer to send paper invites. But we’re having a small friday morning wedding followed by lunch and then we’re having a bigger party at our apartment that night. I’m pretty sure we’ll just send email invites to the party.
retro chic
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 05:35 pm: [report]
Wendy, I understand… sounds verrry intimate and romantic, more so than your moderate count implied… you want it just right. Just hope you’re saving yourself for fun and enjoying “the moment” then, AND now when it’s a pain, that’s all. (( ))
titsmagee
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 05:40 pm: [report]
Well this is enough of a reason for me to just address all the envelopes by people’s nicknames.
theoldman
wrote on April 9 2009 @ 08:12 pm: [report]
Wendy do what you think is right for you. Any one who is upset enough to be offended reminds me of a pompous ass who was the commanding general’s wife of the base my wife was living on while I was in sunny SE Asia. She was “invited” to a party that all officers’ wives were to attend. Kelley didn’t show and carry the ash tray for the general’s wife. G’sW made a stink of it, fortunately Kelley was serving as the law clerk for one of the US District Judges in that area. The DJ called the Gen and asked him if his wife thought her party was more important than the efficient operation of his court. Common sense ruled. It’s your day NO ONE ELSE’s and any one who makes an ass of themselves over something like that should be removed for being rude. I always made sure Kelley was called what she wanted not what some book said.
notquitelolita
wrote on April 10 2009 @ 12:56 pm: [report]
One way I’ve gotten around that debacle is to just write “The (Surname) Family” on the envelope.
rsonnack
wrote on April 10 2009 @ 08:27 pm: [report]
I think this is one of those things that needs to get with the times. I’m not married but I would NEVER want to be referred to as Mrs. His FullName. I would want something like an invitation to be addressed to me and my husband individually, like “Mr. HisName and Mrs. MyName LastName. Address it the old fashioned way to the old people if you want, but this is one tradition that is way outdated and insulting to women.
hereshestands
wrote on April 10 2009 @ 10:37 pm: [report]
I’m not married but I wouldn’t like to be called by his name. He doesn’t own me. I am my own person as much as he is his own person. I love him heaps but uh no. Just no. My Mum gets really angry at this as well. She insists on being addressed separately to my Dad. You can do this for the older people but not for women of today.
RachelR
wrote on April 13 2009 @ 09:51 am: [report]
I kept my name when I married and I would be highly offended if I received an invitation addressed to Mr. and Mrs. Hubby Surname. That’s why when I sent out our wedding announcements, I said screw old-fashioned, patriarchal etiquette and instead, addressed each couple as Mr. John and Ms. Jane Smith. I don’t think people are all that hung up on rules of etiquette anymore, so I say do what you feel is most respectful and right.
It’s also important to note that Emily Post’s Etiquette was originally published in 1922. It’s been revised, sure, but it still pretty much reflects values that were standard for that time. I would like to think that we’ve evolved since then.
splopez
wrote on April 20 2009 @ 12:23 am: [report]
My mother taught me that when you address a husband and wife in writing by first names that you put the woman’s name first because you never split the man’s name because he is his name and the woman just takes it in marriage.
So for example, if you were doing a plaque for a donation to a charity and you and your husband donated as a couple, she would say the correct way to write this using first names would be:
Jane and John Doe VERSUS what 99% of people do: John and Jane Doe… John Doe is John Doe so his name should never be separated! This is very logical to me, but boy when I look around nobody knows this other than my mother I think.
Did she make it up? What do you guys think?
I’m frustrated because I’m the bread winner in our family and if we list our names on a plaque as Mr. and Mrs. His First Name and Last Name, I’m completely omitted.
So we’ve been using the Her First Name & Hist First Name His Last Name nomenclature and everyone else on the plaque is the opposite—I really don’t care because I like it the way I’ve always done it, but would love to tell the Foundation we donate to if they are doing everyone else’s backwards…
KimW
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 12:06 pm: [report]
I’m a little late on this one, but I only wish I had the problem of people using MY NAME. I didn’t take my husband’s last name when I got married (after a lot of chaos) and people still address us as Mr & Mrs His Name. Even people that KNOW my name. I find it extremely disrespectful when people who know my name do not address me accordingly. I find many people do not know how to “deal with” a woman keeping her name. The one that really got me was when someone who knew I had kept my name sent her invite “HisFirst and LastName AND FAMILY”! I was P***ed.
KSans
wrote on September 29 2009 @ 09:32 am: [report]
I’m a little late on this post…but just want to say THANK YOU, Wendy for posting this. I am having the EXACT SAME experience as you and the exact same discussion with my mom. I can’t believe that addressing an envelope as “Mr. & Mrs. John & Jane Doe” is inappropriate. To use the WOMAN’S name is inappropriate! Who knew!
My mom has always gone by “Mrs. John Doe”....but it never actually hit me how outdated this tradition is until it became my turn to be affected by it. It’s about time woman started to stand up to this and change the “formality”. Thank you again….such a relief to know that I am not standing alone!