Mind Of Man: Why Men Fight
Posted by: John DeVore
Filed in:
guys
1:00PM, Wednesday November 18th 2009
Men fight because it feels good. It’s thrilling. Testosterone explodes and adrenaline surges. The hormonal musk kicked up by a MMA fight is potent enough to grow hair on a grapefruit. We have love of the battle in our blood. There are biological and evolutionary reasons for this. Like many male mammals, men compete for territory, food, and, most importantly, females. After all, it’s our genetic compulsion to spread our seed. Violence is part of our nature. It comes in handy when a giant, shambling mound of protein with tusks needs to be taken down. It’s a negative when … well… read the news. If I were a cynic, I’d say that war was invented to keep the surplus of men down.
Men don’t just fight because of our wiring. Sometimes it’s a combination of wiring and alcohol. Or ego. Or latent homoerotic desire. It’s also culture. I’m a Texan, and Texans are basically Klingons. Man, do we love to fight.
I’ve always found Darwinian explanations and excuses for human behavior to be cop-outs. I believe we are in constant conflict with our primary programming, and that conflict is the defining trait of being human. The ability to transcend our base, primal instincts that we inherited from our ancestors from long ago, ancestors who lived short, brutal, ugly lives. If we were not capable of subverting our inner animal, we’d never have invented prophylactics, which allow us the pleasure of sex without the consequence of childbirth. Mercy and compassion are of little evolutionary value. Yet humanity has struggled to invent ideas and concepts that lift us up from the muck of self-interested survival. For instance, religion, art, and philosophy all help us to imagine a world without suffering. A better world where we’re not slaves to fighting and humping.
Men don’t just fight because of our wiring. Sometimes it’s a combination of wiring and alcohol. Or ego. Or latent homoerotic desire. It’s also culture. I’m a Texan, and Texans are basically Klingons. Man, do we love to fight. It’s exciting. Time slows down. Your muscles seem to swell, and your senses sharpen. Victory is an addictive drug. It’s not that I’m not a fan of irony, but before I get crazy-pants death threats from readers with poor reading comprehension skills: I am not endorsing violence. I respect pacifists. Walking away from a fight is a noble act, an example of wizened self-control. A friend of mine once took a beating rather than raise his fists. Apparently, he had long hair and some dude didn’t like his hair. He barked, mocked, pushed. My friend stood up to him, didn’t back down, but didn’t fight. It was a gory way to make a point, but the point was made: He absorbed pain because of principles he believed in. I’m a firm believer that violence begets violence. Fighting rarely settles anything; it just invites more fighting. But I can’t ignore the jolt of grisly joy that being in a fight can inspire, or even near one. I’ve learned, over the years, there is a such thing as the right fight and the wrong fight.
So here’s why I’m writing this in the first place: I was honored to be privy to two bar fights recently. They were both examples of the “wrong fight.” The first was at my local dive bar here in Queens. A hipster kid stormed into what is a very neighborhood bar. Lots of union guys, local kooks, waiters, plumbers, and assorted yuppie degenerates like yours truly. He was alone. Scrawny. He wore thick black glasses and dude bangs. He was lit like a road flare. I could sense that he was in the mood to scrap. He sat next to the smallest guy in the bar, a guy more or less the hipster’s age. Maybe early twenties. What I should have done was go over and explain to him the three rules of dive bars. Number one: never talk smack, loudly, about what’s playing on the juke box. The juke box is sacred. Number two: don’t verbally abuse the pleasant, friendly female Irish bartender. And, most importantly, number three: never pick a fight at a bar where off-duty cops drink. The hipster, upon finding out that the small guy his own age had put on The Grateful Dead, proceeded to rail against the music. The small guy didn’t take the bait, to his credit. He just grit his teeth and simmered. The hipster started being openly hostile to the bartender and, within five minutes, she and I had gotten him out of the bar. Which is when he started throwing his fists. This surprised me, as hipsters are a subculture known more for sarcastic passive-aggressive barbs than machismo. I tried to calm him down, without actually getting into a fight. Telling him to just go home in a low, steady tone. Suddenly, he froze. Was it because of my intimidating build? My fearsome pose? My manly voice, which sounds like gravel and chainsaws? It was the top cops behind me. They were both approximately fifteen-hundred pancakes tall and made out of molten steel. And they wanted to take this guy apart like a chicken wing. I managed to convince him of his folly and he stumbled home.
Why did he want to fight? Booze? The ecstasy of crunching knuckles? My guess is he had never actually been in a fight. That he’d never actually been punched in the nose. Felt that shooting pain that stabs clean through your skull. I was told once that a guy who wants to really fight you won’t tell you he wants to fight you first. He’ll just punch you. This hipster was looking to secrete his excess testosterone over some poor nobody he didn’t know. I’m sure in his head he was fighting the right fight. That the offending song or the look in that guy’s face, or whatever, had been a slight worthy of engaging in combat. A lot of guys are the heroes of their own little action movies and cannot imagine that, in fact, they are the villain in everybody else’s movie.
The second fight I caught recently was at a loathsome frat bar in Manhattan. It was a sea of crew cuts and blue shirts. Don’t ask what I was doing there. These things happen. This was a scuffle involving two overly body-sprayed ham hocks. It was like a climactic clash between Abercrombie & Fitch. It was a simple tale: brodawg bumped into other brodawg’s girl. No apology was issued. The best part of what turned out to be a lot of pushing and shoving was a brief, imperceptible moment when the two guys were chest to chest. Fingers were jabbing, eyes were narrowing, peacock feathers were sprouting out of khaki-clad asses. Somewhere buried deep in this moment of macho-posturing I could swear they were going to kiss. Fighting over a woman is lame. It’s normally just an excuse for two men to go penis-to-penis against each other. It is not the right fight. I don’t know any woman who appreciates the gesture.
Of course, a lot of what I know about fighting comes from a woman. My mother, who grew up in El Paso, Texas. In her youth she ran with Latina gangs. Growing up, I was a butterball and frequently picked on. I would report tales of my bullying and my mother would tell me, and this is a direct quote, “Mijo, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. But you only have two cheeks, and Jesus didn’t say get your ass kicked.” In her way, she tried to imbue in her son a sense of the right fight. Never pick a fight. Help those who ask you for your help. Defend yourself and those you love. She didn’t advocate violence; it was experience that taught her sometimes, when cornered, you have to take a stand for yourself, and your principles. Over years, I’ve seen her fight casual racism, sexism, and anyone who would dare cross her family. Always stand up for yourself and those you love. Nothing feels as good as taking a punch for being true to yourself.
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CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 01:29 pm: [report]
I will fight you John….for some action that is.
warmfuzz
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 01:36 pm: [report]
ROTFLMAO, love your mom’s quote
slip
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 01:36 pm: [report]
I’ve been a slave to fighting and humping my entire life and I turned out OK.
Slip
AnitaBath
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 01:38 pm: [report]
The worst insult you can give a Klingon is to tell them their mother has a flat forehead. That scrappy little guy in the bar should’ve tried using that if he really wanted to get in a fight.
dizzy
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 02:38 pm: [report]
Whatevs. An animal that cannot adapt cannot survive.
C.Munro
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 02:44 pm: [report]
This idiotic obsession with fighting is probably about 90 percent of the reason I simply despise almost all other men. I hate fighting. I hate the threat of violence because it brings out my own absolute worst tendencies. You think it’s exciting? Man, when some guy throws a punch at me, I don’t just want to kick his ass; I want to crush him to dust. I want his entire family to spontaneously combust. I go from non-violent slacker to bloodthirsty troglodyte with no middle ground the very instant I detect a threat against my own safety. And I find nothing noble or exciting about that.
I also think our ability to transcend our base nature is vastly overrated. Under duress, we all revert back to the animals we are.
MuchoMacho
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 02:44 pm: [report]
my liberal pacifist lovey dovey mom was appalled when i came home from school one day with finger bruises on my neck from some kid who choked me when i wouldnt push him back on the playground. she told me “sometimes its ok to fight, but when you do, make sure you hit him so hard he never ever wants to fight you again.” i love my mom so much…
MuchoMacho
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 02:47 pm: [report]
truer words were never spoken. 95% of loser bar tough guys are just talk. let them expel their hot air and theyll walk away. you had better train harder and/or want it more than the other 5%...
dizzy
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 02:50 pm: [report]
By the way - save the biology for a biologist.
And yes: Malthusian trap, baby: wars used to be very good for the survivors.
slip
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 02:56 pm: [report]
@C.Munro, exactly. And once you’re done crushing your enemies, you go back to humping.
Slip
C.Munro
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 02:58 pm: [report]
@slip: The obsession with humping accounts for the other 10 percent.
pragmatryst
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 03:10 pm: [report]
Them’s fightin’ words.
A.J.R.
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 03:20 pm: [report]
My dad (a liberal, Berkeley educated, devout Catholic) imparted this bit of wisdom to me: “Don’t ever pick a fight, but always finish one”. One time in elementary school, this white trash kid who was older and bigger than me put me in a headlock in the bathroom. I struggled for a few seconds then decided to finish him. I kneed him in the balls so hard, he fell down on the dirty bathroom floor. He left me alone after that.
ChoJinn
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 03:23 pm: [report]
Absolutely. Oh, and I am sure you are all crushing your enemies.
SouthOC
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 04:07 pm: [report]
Priceless!
jambadreamer07
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 04:29 pm: [report]
@ dizzy
Thank you!!!! More like leave it to an evolutionary ecologist. BTW mercy and compassion (a.k.a. altruism) have many benefits for species that live in social groups, which humans do. Evolution favors ANY trait that favors the propagation of a species. Sometimes altruism and pair-bonding produces more babies than brawn and violence. That being said, there’s also competition within social groups, which explains why men can be so violent.
majicksand
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 04:29 pm: [report]
I haven’t had to fight much in my life. Apparently I just look mean.
My son has had to fight a couple times in highschool. He’s very slim and started highschool at 13, so he was younger and smaller than most of the other boys. At the beginning of his freshman year the gym teacher turned around to find my son on the floor in the fetal position protecting his head while another student kicked him repeatedly. After a two week investigation, the school informed me that they were “unable to determine fault”, so I should let it go. I did but only because my son wasn’t physically injured and would have suffered unimaginable humiliation had his “mommy” pushed the issue.
The next kid who laid hands on him at school got his jaw rocked with my blessing. Since then he’s had a couple of other kids mess with him but not many. I don’t advocate violence, but sometimes you have to establish your place in the pecking order.
KatWilder
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 04:39 pm: [report]
I didn’t understand this until I had a son, and then I got a lot of insight into men.
Now, shall we talk about why women fight? (and don’t get all excited about naked hard bodies sloshing around in mud; it never looks that good. Trust me!)
SouthOC
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 04:50 pm: [report]
I think anyone over the age of 20 who gets into a fight (other than to defend himself or his loved ones) probably has unresolved rage issues.
... more therapy = fewer broken noses.
MuchoMacho
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 05:12 pm: [report]
i think fighting can be healthy.
develange
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 05:17 pm: [report]
as arousing as the idea of my boyfriend going caveman apeshit on some dude is…injuries and risk of death are NEVER hot in reality.
Recently, some dude near my apartment stabbed some other guy in the heart in front of a bar. Yeah, unresolved rage issues. And who the hell brings a knife to a bar?
SouthOC
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 05:49 pm: [report]
@Mucho:
I agree. When you’re a child… Over 21 brings a whole new batch of problems like:
- going to jail (most grown-ups don’t want that on their resume)
- seriously getting hurt
- seriously hurting someone else
- if you’re a parent, it’s not cool to have to explain to Jr. why you have scraped up knuckles or a black eye
- losing the respect of people you care about
I could go on and on. IMO, healthy well adjusted adults don’t fight with their fists, they find mature ways to resolve conflicts.
I can’t say that I haven’t been mad enough to pop somebody from time to time, but at some point you have to be able to tame the beast.
Netty
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 06:00 pm: [report]
“Mijo, Jesus said to turn the other cheek. But you only have two cheeks, and Jesus didn’t say get your ass kicked.”
Aawww, this is so sweet and funny.
meredith806
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 07:48 pm: [report]
That description of the fratboy fight was thoroughly entertaining, very nice visual the peacock feathers and such;)
JACK_W
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 09:03 pm: [report]
What the author is describing isn’t actually fighting. It’s posturing. Neither of the incidents he describes resulted in violence.
Mortal fights are very ugly. There’s nothing hot or homoerotic about them.
canadiancutie
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 10:34 pm: [report]
hahahaha as soon as I saw the headline I had to laugh because my boyfriend confessed to me on Saturday he’s never been in a physical fight… because he doesn’t want to mess up his face. LOL. He KNOWS he has a pretty face so he doesn’t see the point in being dragged down to another dude’s level (physically) over some stupid s*it. I wish all men thought this way. Vanity over pride. LOL.
MelanieRamona
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 12:39 am: [report]
Much love to your El Pasoan mom from this El Pasoan. Chuco Town!
Morwen
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 06:59 am: [report]
Very enlightening.
Also, it made me remember my very posh and proper mother telling me It was ok to fight back to defend yourself. And that made me smile.
og217
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 07:45 am: [report]
Well, we live in a world of legal implications so I definitely do not encourage fighting but I don’t think that “fighting over a woman is lame.” Thats a complete contradiction of the end paragraph - defend people you love! I’m not talking about silly bar bumps or whatever, but really, a man who wouldn’t defend the woman he is with because he’s too “enlightened” is pathetic and should be dumped immediately.
MuchoMacho
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 09:45 am: [report]
@SouthOC - difference of opinion. obviously on this ladies website im going to be in the minority, but there are times when fighting is the answer. actions have consequences. sometimes the consequences are worth it. im not talking about some frat boy brushing against your gf and not appologizing… but if you catch someone slapping his wife… or a guy spits in your face… or when someone wishes your little brother had died after his motorcycle wreck when he didnt know you were standing behind him…
you can live how you choose. you can judge me all you want. im 27. not a kid, but certainly not as old and wise as most. i have a real life grown up job. i pay my bills. i have responsibilities, and i fulfill them. i pay my taxes. i dont drink, smoke, or use any drugs. i also fight when i choose to.
slip
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 10:00 am: [report]
@Kat Wilder,
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this.
Slip
MuchoMacho
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 10:05 am: [report]
slip - we’ll just have to agree to agree on this.
SouthOC
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 10:17 am: [report]
@Mucho: My previous posts are general in nature, and believe that in most cases that fighting is just plain stupid. I grew up a scrapper, and with much effort have learned to deal conflicts without violence. I’m secure in my masculinity, and don’t feel the need to prove it to every jackass with a chip on his shoulder.
That being said, some of the situations you bring up are exceptions. If someone takes a swing at me, he’d better do all of his damage with the first punch because he’ll pay a mighty price. If someone threatens or assaults my loved ones, they’re going down hard.
MuchoMacho
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 10:36 am: [report]
im having trouble with the first part of this line…
SouthOC
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 10:42 am: [report]
I grew up in a rough neighborhood where fighting was part of the culture.
MuchoMacho
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 10:48 am: [report]
no i meant the growing up part. im having trouble getting over that hump.
SouthOC
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 10:58 am: [report]
This is meant to be somewhat light hearted: The human frontal lobe doesn’t fully develop until the age of 25, so according to wikipedia:
C.Munro
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 11:06 am: [report]
What about the full-frontal lobe? I heard that one grows faster. Uh-huh-huh-huh.
bogart4017
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 11:13 am: [report]
The worse species? The 24/7 quiet humble guy—-until he has a drink or two and goes from bruce banner to the incredible hulk. I have known more than one person like this over the years and i tend to think that they are just allergic to alcohol. They always claim not to remember then apologize and two months later its the same s**t. I knew a particular guy like that yrs ago and about 7 other guys used to hang together (they all worked in the same clinic). One of them told me he had kicked everyones ass in the office at one point or another under the influence of weed and alcohol.
They used to always invite me to hang with them and stupid me i went. But from day one i knew if something jumped off none of those idiots would defend me and i was on my own. So i promised myself if he ever raised his hand to me i’d get a step ladder and crack him over the head with a bottle 151 proof bacardi (he was kinda tall). The strangest thing was he never ever bothered me. Not so much as a threat. And i’ve seen him go after people—it aint pretty.
The upshot is sometimes you don’t have to physically fight if you give off the vibe that you will if pressed. Its gotta me out of a lot of crap.
If you wonder whatever happened to my tall friend—the inevitable. His last night in town before returning to the midwest he got out of line with a bouncer in a club and got his bones scattered across Ala Moana Blvd in downtown Honolulu. Justice served.
secretstevie
wrote on November 19 2009 @ 03:27 pm: [report]
this is so applicable to all situations. love it.
Pepper Honeywood
wrote on November 20 2009 @ 01:28 am: [report]
Oh, I was hoping you weren’t going to blame it on testosterone. It’s actually LOW testosterone that causes aggression (that and high estrogen). High testosterone makes you friendly, calm, and horny!
CJ1432
wrote on November 21 2009 @ 06:04 pm: [report]
I’ve seen quite a few fights but I’ll never forget the one when my Dad’s (former) friend, who was intoxicated at the time, called me a “whiny little bitch.” I’ve heard that my dad was a bar brawler back in the day but had never witnessed it in my 26 years. I guess you just don’t mess with a man’s daughter.
verynervous
wrote on November 21 2009 @ 09:08 pm: [report]
My two cents (avoiding the big issue):
I’ve never had to take a punch for this. But I’ve stood firm in the face of people who were threatening to hit me, and I have to say I have never been more sure of anything in my life than that I was ready to be hit rather than to be bullied. I never felt more true to myself.
That’s not a message to you kids. If you can get out of a fight, get out. It was just my specific experiences.
SouthOC
wrote on November 23 2009 @ 11:29 am: [report]
@verynervous
True!