Is Chivalry Sexist?

lea322
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 12:56 pm: [report]

1. Awesome. Then I don’t have time to obsess. I appreciate this.
2. EVERYONE should do this!
3,4,5&6. I think it’s nice when someone holds a door for me. It says, “Let me make your life easier,” not, “I know you can’t do this yourself, so…” The other stuff I can take or leave.
7. I agree with the author on this one.
8. I do this for ALL my friends, male or female, and really appreciate when it’s done for me. You just never know. Plus, more than once I have realized that my keys fell out of my purse in the car or I actually locked myself out, and it was great that the person didn’t just peel out and leave the second I closed the car door. I think it also shows that you’re not in a huge hurry to get away from the person!

GreenAura
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 12:57 pm: [report]

I don’t mind any of these, except the “order for her”.  I agree w/ you Amelia, always ask if its cool.  But a lot of the time, I change my mind right before the server gets to me, or I substitute things on the plate.  It would be awkward for me to tell my date: Yeah, I want the beef fajitas, no sour cream, no beans, double the rice, substitute flour tortillas for corn, and hot salsa instead of the regular.  I’ll just do it myself, thanks.  God help us if we are at a Starbucks!!

amb9206
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 01:03 pm: [report]

My bf does most of these.  I especially like when we discuss what we’re getting and he orders for me and when he opens the car door for me.  I guess I enjoy all these because my ex husband was a lazy, selfish mf er.

ktblueyz
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 01:04 pm: [report]

call me sexist but Id rather be treated as “weaker” then equal. I like it when the door is opened for me,  ... and the next time I move apartments im not going to have my girlfriends and myself carry my couch down the stairs either.

Riley
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 01:05 pm: [report]

7 is the only one I don’t feel is proper.  I usually change my mind at the last minute and order something way off base from my original decision.  I assume I’m not the only person in the world that does this, so ordering is left up to her.

3 through 6 come second nature from working in restaurants for a long time.  It is just polite help, especially if people are dressed-up.

Queen Frostine
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 01:08 pm: [report]

I don’t mind when a man opens car doors or offers me my coat, pulls my chair, etc. BUT I usually reciprocate his actions by handing him his keys, taking his coat when he comes home, pouring him a drink when I get mine, and other equal acts of kindness. And we alternate who pays for dinner and movies.

I think it becomes sexist when a woman *expects* all those things and offers *nothing* in return. Or a man flat out refuses to allow a woman a little independence.

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 01:13 pm: [report]

I love chivalry and good manners. I think that’s because it was so important to my mom.  My boyfriend does most of these and I’m so impressed by his good etiquette and how well he treats me. But I think what impresses me most about it is that it is genuine.

When I was younger and less experienced with men (say, 16- to 19-years- old), I was very aware that some men will be chivalrous while they’re wooing you and trying to impress you, but once their true colors show, they do not have good manners, and what’s worse they don’t treat you very well. Some guys who act “politely” in the courtship phase do really awful things later on. Not every man who holds open doors for women treats women well, of course, but I found myself being particularly resentful when guys would “impress” me with chivalry that wasn’t genuine.

At least for me, I love it when a man has well-mannered, but I don’t like it when I figure out he’s just been putting on a show.

MichelleS1017
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 01:25 pm: [report]

poor guy… who would these b***ches be so critical?!

jimnist10
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 01:26 pm: [report]

I echo everyone’s sentiments:I agree with all of these except for the ordering thing.  All of them are just good manners and I don’t really have a problem with chivalry either, even with it’s sexist past.  And since when is showing a woman a little adoration and respect SEXIST, especially if it’s genuine and not just to get into your pants?  I can’t stand these crazy people (probably women) who insist on exact equality in every action and being outraged if that doesn’t happen because that must AUTOMATICALLY mean that women are being “opressed”. These are the same extremists that want “ovesters” along with “semesters” because the word “semester” is somehow referring to men and semen (and, no, I didn’t only get that from “Legally Blonde”. When you go to Smith, you meet a large spectrum of “feminists”.) It’s comments and “outrage” like theirs that give feminism a bad name!

GreenAura
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 01:32 pm: [report]

@ jimnist10: Wow. “ovesters”? REALLY?? I thought I heard some funny sh*t, but that might take the cake.  Reminds me of a 70’s show episode where Donna’s mom held a womens lib party at her house and referred to the ottoman as an “ottowoman”.

_jsw_
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 02:02 pm: [report]

I’ve never done #7 because it _does_ seem patronizing to me, at least at the beginning of a relationship (later on, as mentioned, sometimes it’s just more convenient). The others, I agree with, although I don’t always open car doors or push in chairs - that depends on whether I can do so without it seeming awkward or out of place.

#8 is a must-do. Always. Period. _Always_.

Bunnywith
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 02:16 pm: [report]

#7 is the only one I have an issue with, unless of course he asks me if it’s alright to give my order, and he knows with absolute certainty what I want.

#8 I have no idea how anyone could find offense with that. Everyone should do that, always, and not just at the end of a date.

_jsw_
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 02:23 pm: [report]

@Bunnywith: If you always do it, and not just at the end of a date, you’re a scary stalker. Or a doorman. Or a bodyguard. But I think most women would be cool with the guy leaving once they’re inside, and not coming back until the next date.

Bunnywith
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 02:31 pm: [report]

_jsw_ I’ve never thought of it that way. It’s always been a safety precaution for me. If I drop my sister off at her friend’s house, I wait until she’s inside before I leave. If I bring her friend home, I wait until she’s inside in case her family left and she doesn’t have a key. I don’t want her to be locked out, do I? With a date, I see it as the same thing. He’s waiting until I’m inside to make sure I don’t get locked out or something else.

_jsw_
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 02:38 pm: [report]

@Bunnywith: Sorry, I was just kidding (and poorly so), interpreting your statement to mean people should constantly keep wait outside their date’s doorway, _not_ the true meaning of your statement, which is that we should all wait for people we drop off to get inside - a sentiment with which I _fully_ agree. Unless you’re dropping off Chuck Norris. He can take care of himself.

secretsquirrel
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 03:13 pm: [report]

Bravo, Amanda!

spanishdoll
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 06:40 pm: [report]

I recently dated an older man who often eschewed all these “chivalrous” actions, and it took me a while to figure out why it bugged me so much. Though we had to break up because I was moving, I’m sure this annoyance would have eventually grown into a larger issues.

At first I assumed I was just being self-centered as a girl, expecting to be adored and waited on. Then I realized that the problem wasn’t that he didn’t wait on me hand and foot, but that when he had a moment to do the easiest extra task to help me out, he never noticed or took the opportunity. To me, this showed that he wasn’t particularly conscious of how well he treated me. This showed in miniscule things, like taking the nearest seat and making me walk around him, or suggesting an expensive place to eat and then staring at the check when it arrived because he expected me to pay (with a decade in age difference, and me being unemployed, this was tough).

As others have said, it’s not that I’d want him to do everything for me, it’s just that I felt more willing to go out of my way to make him feel special, and make those little gestures that say “man, I *really* like you and can’t keep my mind off of you.” I don’t think it necessarily has anything to do with the gender difference, as I was just as ready to open doors or offer a seat to him.

pryce2
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 09:10 pm: [report]

When I drop friends off, male or female, I always like to see that they get inside. It’s a nice thing to do, and it gives me a sense of well being.

I don’t really expect men to open doors for me or open my car door. I can’t remember it even being something I put conscious thought into. I’m a brisk walker, and I often hold the door for guys I’m walking with because I get there first.

However, when a guy does go the extra mile to open the door or something, I’m very flattered. “Oh, look, he’s trying,” I think to myself. My last relationship was with a friend, so things like that were always a welcome reminder that we had progressed to something a little more serious.

oldMan
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 10:58 pm: [report]

As a husband and father of four young daughters—I have tried to keep up with all but the order meals.  Not because I believe that my wife is weak, but out of respect.  And I want my daughters to see how they should EXPECT to be treated.

writergirl
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 05:03 am: [report]

I have no problem with any of these.  I don’t even mind if he orders for me—though that I think its maybe happened once, because the waiters/waitresses always turn to me first to order. 

#8 is a definate, no matter what.  My girlfriend’s and I do this for each other….why wouldn’t expect a man to do the same for me?  I’ve done it for my husband when we were dating, if I was dropping him off and not coming in for the night.

nikkiwikki
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 07:10 am: [report]

If some tool tried to order for me, I would get up and leave. Date over. Right there.

Mainer
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 08:35 am: [report]

@ oldman - totally agree. As a guy, I do these things out of respect for women, not because they are weaker. I was brought up to treat women like they were superior to men, almost like royalty - which is why we open doors, take their coat, etc. These hardcore feminist interpreting that as men thinking they are weak and inferior is just silly. Stop playing the victim for everything.

I do all of these for those reasons. Except order for my date - but I do always, without question, let them order first. I think that should have been a qualifier on that one. In my last long relationship, sometimes I would tell the waiter what we were having because I knew - we were so boring: two filet mignon, medium rare, with the mashed potatoes. haha, we were just too predictable.

But women, please do not take this stuff we do as a sign of disrespect. It is the opposite. Most of the commenters here have a good enough head on their shoulders that they recognize that, and I’m glad we are not seeing a lot of agreement with those rebloggers on tumblr.

Infamous
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 09:06 am: [report]

And that’s why feminism is a difficult thing to own up to without an explanation. How frustrating for some poor guy who is trying to be respectful to hear women belittle his efforts. That’s bad manners in my book.

I like having my bf order for me. I tell him my order before the waiter gets there so he knows to. If I don’t tell him, he knows I’m still making up my mind or have a laundry list of substitutions.

As far who pays… it’s whoever does the asking. I paid for the first date w/ my bf.

theattack
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 10:33 am: [report]

I am a feminist, and I am often uncomfortable if someone does these things for me. Holding the door, that’s something everyone should do for everyone else, just because they’re humans, not because of a sex. I do it for men, younger people, older people, women, and whoever is behind me basically. I would not attack a man for doing these things for me, because I know he’s putting forth an effort. But online is something different. Debating it online isn’t the same thing as attacking someone if they do it for you. However, I would let my date know that although he was raised to do those things, it would make me more comfortable if he let me do them for myself. There’s nothing wrong with that, so please don’t attack others for expressing what makes them feel uncomfortable or belittled.

theattack
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 10:37 am: [report]

and Phil, every woman is different and either likes it or dislikes it, just as every man is different and either does it or doesn’t do it, for whatever their reasons may be. It’s difficult for everyone!

theattack
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 11:07 am: [report]

If you want to use those two categories to subdivide, I am a gender feminist. But there are also several other ways to categorize feminist thought. I do not believe that women should be given preferential treatment, which is something that is sometimes attached to gender feminism, but I do believe that the existence of gender roles suppress both women and men from doing what they want to do and from being who they really are. I do not hate men, but I do hate the patriarchy.

fallonthecity
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 12:29 pm: [report]

All these things, except the ordering-for-her part, seem like pretty standard courtesy where I’m from.  Some men were just taught to behave this way, and I think it conveys a sense of respect, as long as it’s genuine.  Numbers 2 and 8 are just common courtesy that both men and women should practice.  So is opening doors—for elderly people, for children, for people with their hands full.  I never let a door shut behind me if there’s someone else close behind.  So, I don’t see the big offensive deal.  Just say “thank you.”

Chebs
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 05:10 am: [report]

I like all the suggestions, except for the ordering and the pulling out the chair.  I am a picky eater, so my orders can be very long and detailed depending on the restaurant, and it’s simply much easier if I order.  I have on occasion asked my date to order for me if I need to use the bathroom or take an important phone call, but usually I do it myself.  At nicer restaurants, I’m ok with pulling the chair out, but it just irks me for some reason.  I haven’t had anyone bash the backs of my knees with a chair in a long time, but still. 

I feel bad for the poor author.  At least he didn’t put in anything about men walking curbside.  I would hate to see comments for that.

majicksand
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 07:29 am: [report]

When my husband and I started dating, we struggled with the door opening thing.  I was so used to doing it for myself that I would forget to let him do it.  Now I get to doors and wait for them to be opened.  It’s kind of a joke between us.  He has “trained” me to let him do the things for me that make him happy.  Meanwhile, I have “trained” him to do the things for me that make me happy—like putting the toilet seat down.  Either way, it’s all about me!  What woman in her right mind would argue that as a bad thing?

My husband respects me and defers to me in areas of our relationship where he knows I’m stronger.  I do the same for him.  I handle the money; he cooks.  Of course I’m capable of opening my own doors, but it makes him happy to do it.  Frankly, I don’t feel weak, I feel treasured.

Frederica Bimble
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 09:36 am: [report]

I expect all of those things on the list.  #7 has moved on a bit and now it is more acceptable to allow the lady to order first instead of actually ordering for her.  I do have a funny story about that though.  I was in the Army 20 years ago and had dropped my friend off at the barracks.  One of his friends - who had hitched a ride with us - whom I’d just met asked if I wanted to grab a bite to eat.  Now, we’re both in Army fatigues and we go to a restaurant off post.  I had just met this guy and when we go into the restaurant, the waiter came over and took our order and then asked if we’d like tea (it was a Chinese restaurant).  I said, “no thank you, just water for me” but this fella looks at me and says, “why don’t you try the tea?  You’ll like it.”  I again said, “no, I always drink water with my meals.”  My jaw dropped when the guy looks at the waiter and says, “She’ll have the tea.”  I replied, “And you’ll be walking back to base.”  I then left him in the restaurant….Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.  How stupid can you get?

Frederica Bimble
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 09:39 am: [report]

Also, the bloggers comment about not waiting for someone to get into their house is just the words of a youngster, inexperienced in life.  People should do that for each other - date or no date.  I get my male colleagues who are in their 50’s to text me when they get home just to make sure they made it.  Why?  Because I care and they’re my friends.

dee_genrit
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 11:24 am: [report]

It’s not about being weaker, it’s about being noticed.  It’s about a man seeing that you’re there and being willing to take a second or two to show some kindness.  And I actually think all this stuff should apply to more than a date because I’m the girl who likes a guy who knows to treat all women with respect, not just the hot ones.  Help an old lady with her overhead luggage on the plane, offer your seat (or at least move your damn laptop case off the one next to you) for the pregnant chick on the subway.  Walk your date and your tomboy female friend to their door when it’s dark out because they both have the same risk of being targets of violence.  And for God’s sake don’t let some feminazi ever convince you that it’s somehow impolite to hold open a door for anyone (i think we all know that doors are not generally all that heavy and that this gesture is rooted much more in kindness than machismo).  My favorite first date was with a guy who held the door for me and ended holding it for the 4-5 couples behind us who kept rushing in from the rain and oblivous to how long he had been standing their.  But he noticed them, and I noticed him, and we both had a bit of a giggle when we were finally both inside.  Same guy once gave me 11 roses because the girl at the check out “looked like she was having a bad day.”  Having one less flower was more than made up for by the fact that I had a guy who I knew noticed these things, and made the effort to let people know that he actually gave a damn.

bogart4017
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 11:48 am: [report]

I have done all these things for my wife except ordering her meal(she changes her mind 47 times between the time we get the menus and when the waiter finally comes). I’ll never stop either cause its just good manners to pull a chair or help her with her coat or light her cigarette. Why would that connote that you can’t do it yourself. And yes i see the stares we get when i help her with her coat. Its like—-what planet are you from? Sit down—you’re messing it up for the rest pf us.

BlueVibe
wrote on July 14 2009 @ 12:18 pm: [report]

Unless I have to make a quick dash to the ladies’ and ask you to do so, for crying in the beer—do NOT order for me!  That would seem so weird!

The door-and-coat thing is situational: Sitting in the car and making the guy run around to the other side and let me out strikes me as being rather rude to him.  Unless I’ve got a broken shoulder or something, it’s more practical and expedient to just let myself out.  And I’m ask likely to open the door of a building for him as he is for me: I just think it’s polite to hold the door if somebody else is right behind you, date or not. 

I do appreciate timely-but-not-obsessive calling, though, and being on time.  And I think waiting until the other person is safely inside is *always* a good idea, even if s/he is just a friend.

NHMAN442003
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 05:59 am: [report]

I feel, the sworn members of PWAPO (people who are perpetually offended)should relax a bit.  If they spent less time looking for things to be offended about, they may find life more enjoyable, and the people around them a bit more pleasant, though that would require them leaving their PWAPO support group (in other words finding new friends).

metaldoc
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 01:31 pm: [report]

Want to know something weird? 9 times out of 10, my wife does the ordering for me. Dont know how it happened, just did. I dont recall ever ordering for her unless we were with the kids, in which case one of us orders for everyone.

My wife is also a very “feminist” type, yet we have settled roughly into traditional gender roles. I work, she stays home with the kids. although that is more a product of the economy and sheer cost of day care, and the fact that she didnt want someone else raising our kids (and neither did I), than any specific gender training. I also have been in my job for over 10 years and she has had no less than 7 in the same period.

Anyway, door holding…  I do that for everyone, male or female. If I am in front, I hold the door open. It is just common courtesy, not chivalry. And I do think, aside from #7 that is pretty much the whole list. Show common courtesy. #7 can be a tricky one, best left to your best judgement of the personality of the other party.

dlws8607
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 03:19 pm: [report]

Most females demand to be treated like equals until it comes time for dating.  Suddenly, they are “old fashioned” and like the old ways of doing things.  No wonder a lot of men have reached the accurate conclusion that the average American female is an idiot.  Any female that needs or expects to be pampered as described in this “article” is not worth dating, let alone marrying.

_jsw_
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 03:46 pm: [report]

@dlws8607: Hear hear! Only an idiot - and as you say, your description of the average American woman as an idiot is of course accurate -would expect her date (or husband) to call her, to be on time, to treat her courteously, or to make sure she makes it inside safely… indeed, these are signs of pampering. I think, instead, we should look to the women of ancient Sparta as our examples of perfect womanhood. Any woman who would throw a baby off a cliff for not being perfect could take care of herself and would hardly give a crap - or even notice - if you were rude or insensitive.

I’m sickened by the fact that these crazy bitches today ask for - no, demand - equal pay for equal work, equal opportunities in life, respect, and so on… and then have the absolute gall to expect to be treated as human beings in dating situations. They should be the ones paying, the ones driving, the ones calling, and the ones pursuing us purely for sexual gratification.

That only seems fair to me. Idiots indeed. What are they thinking? I wish they could be as smart as we.

majicksand
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 04:01 pm: [report]

@JSW:  I was going to respond to dlws8607, but after reading your response, I find that I am, momentarily, speechless.  Bravo!

cica
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 05:02 pm: [report]

As anyone can confirm by visiting the Bureau of Justice Statistics Web site, men are far more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women, including a risk of being a homicide victim that is three times higher.  Taking reasonable steps to see that one’s companion gets in the front door safely should have nothing to do with gender.

bumbler
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 05:23 pm: [report]

@dlws Man, bitches must be lucky if you slow down before you shove them out on the curb.

There’s nothing wrong with noticing and being attentive to your partner.  When my husband has a hard day or is sick I pamper him fully.  I hardly think he is an idiot for wanting to be noticed and pampered.  Of course everything I do for him he is perfectly capable of doing for himself but what is so wrong about making a little gesture to make life easier for someone you care about or are interested in?

Worldwalker
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 08:53 pm: [report]

Contacting someone after a date is just ordinary politeness. Whoever did the inviting should do the contacting.

Being on time is also basic (sadly, not common) politeness, whether you’re male, female, or otherwise. Showing up late is flat-out rude, because it’s in effect saying “my time is more important than your time, so you can just sit around waiting until I feel like showing up.” That’s a deal-breaker right there.

3 through 6, on the other hand, are problematic. I dislike someone taking over doing something that I do for myself as a matter of course.

Car doors, if I’m outside the car getting in, yeah, opening it instead of just unlocking it is a nice gesture. But if I’m inside the car getting out, am I supposed to sit there like a lump waiting for someone else to let me out? I think it’s the implication that I’m supposed to act helpless and needy that bothers me.

I’ve never had anyone try to dress me as though I was some sort of animated manikin, so I’m not sure what I’d do. Maybe deliver an “accidental” and “clumsy” elbow to the midriff. I’d call that more creepy than chivalrous or romantic.

Doors ought to be a mutual thing. If it’s showing respect for him to hold the door for her, shouldn’t she reciprocate the respect by holding the next door for him? Since so many buildings have two sets of doors, it’s just natural for one person to hold the outside door, and the other to walk through it and hold the inside door. What annoys the hell out of me is the whole families who proceed to parade through as though my husband or I are their freaking doormen, without so much as a “thanks”.

Pulling out of chairs ... that would also bug me. I’m not sure why. It’s not a deal-breaker by any means, but it would make me uncomfortable.

Anyone who insisted on ordering for me (especially like the tea guy mentioned above) would find himself ordering for himself alone. Appointing yourself someone’s business agent is just plain rude. Yes, there are times when it’s the most practical thing to do ... weirdly-shaped booths and noisy restaurants, for instance, or when one person absolutely has to go to the restroom Right Now, or whatever. But as a matter of course, it’s pushing the person into a subordinate and dependent position, and that’s neither chivalrous nor romantic.

Waiting for someone to get inside, on the other hand, is the right thing to do no matter if it’s your fragile, helpless girlfriend, or your buddy from the football team. Lurking rapists aside, anyone can have something unexpected go wrong, and it doesn’t end an evening on a good note if you realize that your house keys fell out of your pocket in the car that is now disappearing down the street. It’s the civilized thing to do.

In answer to the men who say they were taught to treat women with respect: First, of course, it’s not respectful to push someone out of the way to do something for them that they don’t want done, like the cartoon Boy Scout dragging the little old lady kicking and screaming across the street. More important, though, is the concept of treating women in some special way, rather than simply as fellow human beings. It’s treating me as an anonymous instance of class “female”, rather than as Worldwalker, the individual. I am not “a woman”; I’m me, myself. The respect I want from anyone is the kind I earn, not some formalized (and to my mind, condescending) behavior presented merely because of the category I fall into. Another important factor is that these things are done only in public; men don’t do the whole coat, chair, door, etc., thing at home. That makes them seem less for the benefit of the woman involved (houses are full of doors, after all) and more as a public sign of ownership. “This is my woman, you can tell because I’m doing these things and she acts subordinate to me when I do them, so back off!”

The bottom line, though, is really simple: treats people, male or female, as they want to be treated, whether it involves doors or coats or phone calls. Don’t try to figure out what “women” as a group want or, for that matter, what “men” as a group want; figure out what the specific individual human being you’re dealing with wants (asking is usually a good start). And if what they want is unreasonable, or impractical, or makes you uncomfortable, that’s usually a pretty good sign that you haven’t found Mr. or Ms. Right.

wonderfultonight
wrote on July 17 2009 @ 10:15 pm: [report]

I think its nice to have a man do most of these things on a date, except maybe order for me unless he asks first or it’s just more convenient for reasons others have stated. My sweetie and I did have a little trouble with the car door opening part at first. He insisted on doing it and I felt like a dunce sitting there waiting. He eventually tried a “compromise” - he would reach across me and open the door, but let me get out by myself. I would look at him a bit cross-eyed and he would just give a devilish smile and a little kiss, but eventually I managed to convince him I would just as soon open the door myself. You’d be surprised how quickly he can get around the car in time to close the door, though. (It’s just as well since he has locked his keys in the car several times and we still have time to retrieve them. (I do carry an extra set now just in case.)

AS for holding doors for others, we should all do it regardless of gender. I have had to struggle with doors while my hands were full of packages and have others walk right thriugh them without bothering to offer to hold it open. I could never do that to anyone. And making sure a person is inside before you drive away is just common sense today. Even without the fear of assault or worse, a person could fall, have trouble with the door, discover they forgot their keys,etc., and have no one to help them. It’s really about safety as well as courtesy.

angelwing1506
wrote on July 27 2009 @ 06:21 pm: [report]

Maybe it is because I was raised in the South, but I EXPECT a man to do these things for me(with the exception of ordering for me).  It doesn’t matter if I’m just hanging out with a guy friend or out on a date, I was raised to believe that if a man didn’t open the door for you or help you with your coat, then he wasn’t a man you needed to be involved with.  I have spoken with my friends and they all agree.  As for someone thinking it’s ridiculous for a man to wait until you are safely inside to leave, these women must be crazy!  I wouldn’t feel safe walking to my door, presumably late at night, if I didn’t know that someone was there to make sure I made it inside safely.  I just don’t understand how women can be offended by such behavior.  To a Southerner, such as myself, it is baffling.

RogueBelle
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:21 am: [report]

I’m another Southerner, and yeah, we see things differently down here. Chivalric courtesies bring a little softness and gentility into a world that’s increasingly harsh, fast-paced, and careless. A little more beauty in the world can’t be a bad thing, from where I’m standing. Do I expect men to open doors for me and pull out chairs? No. But I think better of the ones who do than the ones who don’t. Just because I’m perfectly capable of doing those things for myself doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the gestures.

My boyfriend is of a dying breed: the gentleman. I appreciate every small gesture of respect and admiration that he does for me, and he appreciates that I don’t bust his balls for doing them. I don’t feel demeaned; I feel valued. I feel special, and adored, and protected. I’m sure a lot of feminists would say that makes me a vain little goose, and, well, maybe I am. But I’m kind of okay with that.

righteousjohnson
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:10 am: [report]

Hint to guys—the more of these you do, the less sex you will get.  Women tend to have low self esteem, so if you are nice to them, they won’t respect you.  So be rude.  The women I’m completely rude to can’t wait to get in bed.  Just try it!

AmericanPie
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:16 am: [report]

Ok, as a man I dad to write this comment. I was reading an article on cnn that said “18 things to teach your sons about women.” I was blown away by what I was reading. Open the car door for her, make sure you know what her favorite flower is, Women like compliments and gifts, It’s OK to cry in front of her, but keep the blubbering to a minimum, etc… Come on!! Women have rights, like a man, they expect the same pay scale as a man, and they constantly say housework is mans work also. AND I COULDNT AGREE MORE!! For the record. But should we be instructed or taught to toptoe around a woman and her feelings, and treat her more special than the man? Whats wrong with buy ing the man flowers? OR the woman keeping her tears to a minimum. I know alot of women dont like their men to cry, because some believe that emascualtes them? Come on. We are human like you. Do you not know that when a woman cries alot, its annoying… But we are taught women are emotional and its ok for them to cry at the drop of a hat. And its crap. We need to get out the 1950’s thinking when it comes to how to treat a woman or a man. It is 2009, and woman are just as equal as men. And it should be that way. How about buying a man his favorite sports mag,....just for the hell of it? Or opening his car door? You have hands also…. but my favorite is be on time even if she isnt…why?? Why should it be ok for women to be late, but we have to be on time? If women want these extra perks, and think men are just monkeys that dont appreciate little things like you do, then we need to completely recess back to the 50’s, including pay, and other rights that are equal today. Women are not children, women AND MEN like to be pampered and given gifts. And we like to be treated like a king as much as you like being treated like a queen. What I am trying to say is…it is very annoying when women think they are more special than men, and think we have to be taught to pamper women with no regard to doing these extra things for men also.

_jsw_
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 12:02 pm: [report]

@righteousjohnson: I expect that your comment has most of the women who read this blog wet with anticipation. It’s truly unfortunate that they’re not able to meet you in real life.

@AmericanPie: I generally agree. I think the general gist of all of it is: “Treat the person you’re with with respect, surprise them with pleasant things or gestures on occasion, and try to be giving at least as often as you’re selfish.” The rest follows.

mathmania
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 02:55 pm: [report]

I personally feel this is a “to live by” list.  It is strange to me, though, how many women I’ve dated take offense by things on this list (except #7).  I hate to admit it, but righteousjohnson is correct, WITH SOME WOMEN.  The last women I dated accused me of not respecting her.  She dumped me for some muscle bound, low IQ guy who ended up posting pictures of her on the internet.  I think she was brought up that women should be independent (thus dismissing the things on this list as being condescending), but that men need women to function.  I need to find a woman who appreciates this list!!

As for #7, I don’t normally order for her, but I do let her order first (unless she tells me otherwise)!

Queen Frostine
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 03:07 pm: [report]

@AmericanPie

Things I do for my husband without being asked:

- Take his coat when he comes home.
- Hand him his keys when he’s walking out the door.
- Hold out a towel when he steps out of the shower.
- Massage his neck/feet/etc. when he comes home tired.
- Buy him his favorite candy when I go to the store.
- Iron his clothes if he’s getting ready for a meeting.
- Fix him a drink if he’s had a long day.

Chivalry isn’t sexist if it goes both ways.

ocratic
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 08:02 pm: [report]

I have to admit that half of the fun reading this column is in the comments.

I am a married middle age man that studied matters of etiquette for fun ever since I can remember - you can say it is a hobby.

One of the fascinating aspects of etiquette is how it transcends spatial and temporal boundaries, how some gestured are considered a must by some while they can be construed as rude by others. Good manners depend largely on the people that are interacting, the cultural aspects of the ambient space and the relationship between them.

While 30-40 years ago when my Father was dating my Mother I am sure that he would always bring flowers, open the car doors, hold an umbrella if it rained, interact with the waiter (this is a MUST if for instance the lady would like to be incognito), repeatedly asking is she is comfortable, etc. many of these gestured are outdated and an increasingly number of women even find many of them offensive, and I can totally understand why (there are very good reasons which unfortunately I will not have time to develop here)

If you know your date likes this type of pampering, you should by all means do it. But if she finds it pressuring, like you expect something in return of these gestures, or simply feels objectified or plainly annoyed than don’t.

The key to good manners is to know your respective partner as well as his/her etiquette space. Opening doors belongs to the class of antiquated gestures that many women no longer like or even tolerate.
There are many reasons for this, an important one is its inherent interpretation as an assertion of power and control.

In conclusion, if you have no a priori knowledge of your date (i.e. a blind date) than I would have to admit that many items on Mr. Rojas list are way over the top as far as etiquette goes in contemporary America, and many women have good reasons to be very annoyed.

More specifically I would say that 3-6 is a big no no unless you know her and that she likes or at least does not mind them.

8 is also a no, no. If you did not drop her in front of her apt building or house where it would take seconds to get to safety inside, it is probably because she did not want to and maybe she has her reasons: discretion is far more important “good manner” than opening a car door, and giving your date space, although not in itself a matter of etiquette will certainly help you get a second date. 

7 - it is a no no unless you have a good reason. A very good example for this if you are French (or speak French well) and you take her to a fancy French restaurant where pronouncing the items on the menu is not trivial. In this case, once she made up her mind WITH your help (you have to beat least as good as the waiter in handling her questions! and not let her get something that she will regret   you can order for her with your perfect French accent. If it is a regular restaurant, and she is not incognito or married to someone else   there is almost no reason to order for her.

2 - dah, one should always be on time at any appointment. Although an interesting note, if she can see that you have arrived (you parked in front of her house, it is good manners to wait a couple of minutes before knocking at the door. 

1 - I have no opinion other that it is a really irrelevant issue.

JessicaH319
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 02:40 pm: [report]

My husband does all of these things - especially 3,4,5 & 6 when we’re on a date. I don’t think or feel like he is belittling me or anything like that. I think its polite and sweet. Like the article said - I do things for him as well. It finds a way to balance itself.

As for #8 - I do this for my friends when we’ve gone out or if they’re leaving my house late. I ask them to text me once they’ve gotten home. Especially as a military wife, who’s husband is gone sometimes. You can never be too safe.

sofiasleeping
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 04:46 pm: [report]

Alright, I had to register just to respond to #8.

Placeholdertext, where do you live? And why do I get the feeling it isn’t in a large city?

I’m in Houston, and no one’s even safe in River Oaks. I don’t drive off before anyone, *anyone* I’ve given a ride to makes it in safely, whether it be home, school, an event, whatever, so you’d better believe I’m going to make sure a date gets inside safely, male or female. I don’t know how I’d deal otherwise knowing something bad happened to the person I had dropped off because I just drove off, even if it was a stranger, much less someone I probably just had dinner with or whatever and might actually want for a mate.

In fact, now that I think about it, this is pretty common practice around here, waiting until the person you’ve dropped off “makes it to safety”. My friends do it, I was raised to do it, and I’m a chick. We even walk in pairs to walk people out to their cars. In fact I’m not sure most of us even think about it, it’s routine. The absence of this practice is much more noticeable.

I did date someone once who would drop me off and then just drive off before I got inside, and it made me think, wow, he doesn’t even care enough about me to make sure I make it inside safely, wow. And let me tell you that was a pretty powerful indicator for the rest of the relationship, although I feel silly typing that.

It’s just, I’d go so far as to call it common courtesy, and rude not to for a date. Also, I’ve never encountered someone just wanting to be dropped off on some block away from their home or wherever, that’s just… weird sounding to me, for some reason… but I’m not much of a blind date kind of person or whatever.

Being on time is another common courtesy for either party, hello? Barring some genuine delay, purposely showing up late is just immature and disrespectful.

As for the rest, whatever floats your boat, pick the level of chivalry in your dating style that reflects you and find the person who appreciates it, you’ll be able to tell if they don’t. You can probably tell I’m a little more ‘alternative’ or whatever, but even I can see the value in having more gentlemen around. Is chivalry sexist? By definition it would seem so, yes. But so what? As long as you treat each other with respect and feel respected in return, by your own definition, and you’re comfortable, so what?

Overall, having been a public high school teacher, I think that more role modeling of chivalry in front of these coming-of-age men wouldn’t exactly be doing us a disservice, let me tell you….

SouthOC
wrote on October 16 2009 @ 05:07 pm: [report]

Actions speak louder than words… When little boys see their Dad treating their Mom with chivalry, it’s golden.

Tristan
wrote on October 18 2009 @ 01:07 pm: [report]

Because I was taught by my Southern parents’ example that the above “rules” and more were gestures of respect for a girl or woman who has graced me with her company, I practice them almost without fail. 

An exception with my long-time girlfriend is in always ordering for her at a restaurant.  That exception is based on the fact that she is a prefessional chef and sometimes has specific questions about items on the menue before making her choices. 

My girlfriend, who grew up in a Northern metropolitan area, where male rudeness seems to have gone over the top, tells me that my chivalry is one of my most endearing qualities.  When I help her on with her coat and fluff her hair from under her collar before leaving a restaurant, she says she sees envy in the eyes of most women around us. 

As for the women who assert that this kind of behavior is demeaning to women, I can only ask if they are happier seeing a woman trying to keep up with an obviously self-absorbed boy/man/slob who leads her, paces behind, into a restaurant, where he orders for himself, talks about himself, eats quickly, expects her to pay either the whole bill or at least half, and has her follow him out to the car to be taken home and dumped on the curb.

For the really rabid “feminists” I’ll throw more fuel on their fire by saying that I always carry a fresh handkerchief to offer any “lady in distress” as my mother called it.  I do so whether I’m dressed up or down to jeans and Tee-shirt.  I have given away dozens of these for all kinds of unexpected reasons to women who have needed them, and without exception recieved a thank you.  A quaint custom? Or maybe just plain nice.

scathach_knight
wrote on October 19 2009 @ 01:36 pm: [report]

Ya know I as a man don’t fin it being sexist, but then I was raised by men and women to treat them with respect, yes i can see where 1 could get annoying if you were doing more as a ” hey its 5:30 what are you doing ?  I mean i can see you’re not home” or a “oh I need to squeeze this one in at 5 minutes to midnight.”  but basically i would presume the author is referring to the idea of “Hey I was just thinking of what we might wanna do for a date or hey i heard that such and such a place wasn’t that great would you like to try maybe this and that ?”  or even”  ya know sally I just had a wonderful evening with you the other night   and i was wondering if maybe we could go out again.”

  as for number 2   be on time ... what that means   fellow men is if you know that it takes x minutes to get to her house apartment or whatever and you know you’ll be driving in possibly bad traffic like say rush hour, you should leave time to get the flowers or what have you and still be there when you told her you planned to pick her up.  and hey don’t be mad if your on time and she isn’t she likely just wants to look her best for the date.

as for 3,4,5,6   It’s not like he’s saying women are weak inferior subject who need to have the door held open for them…. it’s saying I want to show you that my momma didn’t raise a nose picking moron who has no class in even his pinky finger…. now i can see where another guy might be dismayed by these acts of mannerism…after all when I was younger till about half way through high school I tired being gentlemanly and holding the door for women..then i realized it wasn’t getting me dates hell most girls wouldn’t even look twice at me….one actually told me i was too nice and she felt that i was merely hiding something, what i was hiding was that i had manners and felt that occasionally it was a nice gesture to get a door for a young girl but the point was I fell too the dark side of my male ego after that I was crushed so i dug deep and channeled forth my inner @$$0…. I still didn’t get dates but hell I didn’t feel like i was being walked all over either it took many long years for me to pull out my this phase i was forced into and back into trying to be a gentleman…. but even today it seems dong the nice gentlemanly thing gets frowned upon and i still don’t get why i’m not saying woman weak, man stronger I’m saying i appreciate your company and I want you to enjoy mine and feel like queen so maybe i can have another date if this all goes well so that when your home after the date you don’t think” sheesh what a prick he didn’t even have enough manners to say he liked the way my dress looked”

as for number 7   ahhh tricky number seven the point here isn’t so much ” I only have 45 dollars in my wallet so I’ll have the steak and a glass of wine and you my dear will have a potato and a cup of water”

it’s ” well I think I might have the porter house steak , what do you think you’d like ?”

  Sally:  “well I like the way the lobster looks hmm though i like how this chicken sounds too, I want to have the chicken and hmm a potato”

Dude: ” sounds great would you mind if i placed the order then or will that make me come off like a controlling prick who just wants to usurp your feminism and crush you under my thumb?”

Sally:  “oh my god that’s so creepy that you’d want to place my order” or ” Sure you can place my order”

8 hmm what to say about this one “i had a great time sally on this date where i didn’t show you any degree of manners”* sound of screeching tires as I drive off leaving you standing there to walk to your apartment alone.*

ya know i mean hell it’s not like I’m trying to figure out where you live either I know the jist of where you live already or you’ve had me drop you off at a friends house or something, the point is if you felt i was a fishy stalker guy why are you even dating me to begin with ?