Is Cheating Ever Deserved?

Little Lamb
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 09:51 am: [report]

Nope.  Not okay.  Ever.  Relationship not working for you???  Fix it or move on. 

I mean, sometimes it makes me secretly (and sometimes not-so-secretly) smile when a total d-bag or biotch is cheated on, but that’s just not okay for a decent human being to do.

writergirl
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:08 am: [report]

Not okay….but definately justifiable.

In a way though if he’s cheating on Kate—and she is a horrid bitch from the word go—then he’s appearing as if he has no balls.

If things are so bad, he should either put Kate in her place or pack his bags.  Cheating is the easy way—the coward’s way—out.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:08 am: [report]

How about don’t date a guy named John (Sorry DeVore).

magz
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:15 am: [report]

The thing you have to remember is that Jon and Kate Plus 8 is a TV SHOW! As much as it is “Reality” tv, it’s more crafted and edited reality than actual reality.

You have to take into consideration that the only people that see a fully unedited version of their day-to-day is Jon, Kate, their kids, and the crew.

And of course the producers are going to edit Kate’s outbursts, it’s more interesting that way, it shows the stresses of everyday life. Sometimes the happy times aren’t as interesting to watch. We watch the show to see them struggle and go..oooohhhh wow, I can’t do that!

My grandparents had a relationship going for 50+ years that involved my grandmother yelling “TONY!” in the same manner that Kate yells “JON!”. So I’m not sure if we’re getting the full picture of their marriage, and it’s not fair to judge either Jon or Kate based on what we think we know.

Because really, just because we see 30 minutes of their lives every week doesn’t mean we know them. If we had a friend we saw for 30 minutes every week would we consider them a close-personal friend? Probably not.

Alison Wonderland
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:27 am: [report]

Agreed with Lamb. Fix it or leave.

The only way I see cheating as a possibility is as a means of revenge if you have been so utterly wronged by an SO that you’re already out. I had an ex cheat on me (on two seperate occassions) and in the process realized that he had been treating my like crap for too long anyway. So I hooked up with a friend of his for one final FU before I let him have it verbally and went on my merry way without his waste of life ass. I don’t know if you can consider that cheating though, since out apparent ‘relationship’ was as well as over before I even did it.

bittermelon
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:37 am: [report]

I agree with Magz. With only one kid, I’ve had well more than one Kate-worthy moment. Compounded by 8, holy crap. Unless you were heavily medicated or have a ton of help, I don’t know how anyone in that position would keep their sanity.

I don’t know how many wives/mothers would say they’ve never had those moments. I’ve only seen the show a couple of times but I can certainly relate to Kate on several occasions, when you just want your husband to help out without having to ask him specifically to do something, or need to ask several times. There’s only so much “communicating” you can do before it all seems senseless and you lash out. I cringe when I see Kate acting the way she does on TV b/c I see myself in her. It’s not pretty.

And like Magz says, it’s all edited. I know when people see my outbursts, they think I’m a heinous bitch, but they also don’t necessarily see when we do communicate well and are having a good day.

juliePS
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:40 am: [report]

I don’t think you can ever say that someone ‘deserves’ to be cheated on; however, I can definitely say in these situations that I am not surprised. Especially in the John and Kate situation, the guy is so freaking passive that if he did cheat on her it’s probably one of those ‘I want to leave, but I don’t have the nerve, so I’ll just irritate you until you leave ME’ situations. Been there, done that.

Rose
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:46 am: [report]

Not happy with your spouse? Leave.  Wanna sleep with other people? Negotiate an open marriage.  Cheating is cowardly and hurtful.

cattgirl813
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:46 am: [report]

I can’t say it any better than Little Lamb and Magz did.  There is no excuse for cheating.  None.  Sure Kate has behaved badly, but what we’re seeing is a “reality” TV show edited for the most impact and ratings return.  Jon has more than the right to insist he be treated much better.  Both of them and their marriage could probably benefit greatly from fewer cameras (if not no cameras), a nanny or two, and some marital counseling.  But there is no excuse for cheating.  Period.  Either fix the marriage or leave the marriage.  Don’t look for satisfaction outside of it.

Mainer
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 10:59 am: [report]

There is no situation in which the protocol reaction is to cheat. In the book of relationships that is not the advised response (Situationa: Wife is a bitch. Response: Cheat). In most cases cheating is done because the other person does NOT want to leave their significant other. Especially in Jons case where he has 8 kids! What would be worse - Jon cheating on his wife or having him pack his bags and leave his wife to care for 8 kids by herself? He obviously needed refuge from her. I would typically recommend something less vindictive, like golf, but chances are he probably wanted to be with someone who treated him like a human being while at the same time not abandoning his family.

And it is a very good point that we are analyzing their relationship subjectively. It could be that Jon & Kate and John and Elizabeth were in the exact same situation. John and Elizabeth were not part of a reality television show, so we have no way of knowing what their relationship at home was like. Maybe she played the nice girl in front of the camera while the nagging bitch in private, just as Kate could be the nagging bitch on camera while the nice caring wife in private. We just don’t know. But to answer the question of the post, cheating is never justified but it is certainly understandable in certain circumstances.

hellosunrise
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 11:27 am: [report]

i think we’re all pretty much on the same page here. cheating has to be one of the worst things a person could do to another person. and i don’t think there’s ever an excuse or justification for it. ever. despite how disrespectful or vile a person is (or how they’re portrayed), nobody DESERVES to be cheated on. i’ve never quite understood the concept of cheating. if you’re not happy with the relationship and want to be with someone else, why not just leave?

kannf1982
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 01:20 pm: [report]

edwards cheating on his wife: vile

anyone cheating on that Kate woman? merely bad manners. shes horrible.

TotallyRidiculous
wrote on May 8 2009 @ 09:53 pm: [report]

Cheating is never okay an neither is treating someone like crap. I don’t think the majority of people cheat on purpose for revenge.  I think people usually cheat because they have issues they don’t know how to deal with and they are looking for an outlet.  Cheating is usually symptomatic of other problems, rather than being THE problem.  If all that is true about John and Kate, he probably cheated because he doesn’t know how to properly deal with the problems in their relationship, not because he wanted to get back at her for being a bitch.  It’s not an excuse, but it is understandable.

mikeyellenlee
wrote on May 9 2009 @ 02:01 am: [report]

I knew john edwards was a piece of lying sh*t before he started cheating on his wife for tabloid attention.

Ginger
wrote on May 9 2009 @ 09:52 am: [report]

I used to think that there was absolutely no reason at all to cheat on someone.

Then a good friend told me that she had cheated on an ex-boyfriend because she found out he was looking at kiddie porn and, once she found out, he had no problem just getting up after they had sex, going to the computer, and logging on to a site or two.

I’m not saying that cheating is appropriate but…I kind of think he deserved to be cheated on. And broken up with. And possibly reported.

SeaWorthy
wrote on May 9 2009 @ 01:28 pm: [report]

Justified? No. Have I done it? Yes. Abbreviated version of loooong story. Girl (31yo) with one small child, meets boy (40 yo) no children. Do stuff together, go places together (theater, museums, etc), have fabulous sex together all the time, talk often about moving here or there out of the burbs. They marry. 1.5 years go by, Girl has baby. Now limited sex (Girl wants, boy doesn’t want to give it up), no more talk about moving here or there, still do some stuff together. Girl goes to grad school to get back into the work force, earn more money, work toward the future outside the burbs that had been regularly talked about while dating and in first year of marriage. A few more years go by….months upon months of no sex no physical contact, never go anyplace together any more..she goes alone, he has no desire to move out of the burbs (if he ever truly did).

Now girl has two children and a marriage that has no sex, no fun, no common interests, no agreed upon future….Girl thinks she just needs to ‘make it’ through another 8 years until her oldest is off to college…..Girl looks at her life and says, “I do stuff with my friends and my children, I dream my future dreams with my friends and my children…I can get everything I need from a relationship from my friends and my children…but sex. And I need sex, I miss sex and a vibrator just doesn’t provide the same satisfaction….I will have an affair just for the sex to get through the next 8 years.” So I did. In hindsight, I realized that if I was thinking along those lines it wasn’t sex I missed but intimacy….the affair lasted 4 months then I figured that out. I packed up the kids and left.

Now I am 40, single, sleeping alone, have my great circle of friends, have my children, still not having sex as I am not dating one yet BUT not having sex because I am not in a relationship is MUCH different from not having sex because my partner does not want to have sex and refuses to have sex, or any affection for that matter.

wittybitch
wrote on May 9 2009 @ 05:46 pm: [report]

Great piece Wendy. While others commenting may be quick to jump on the cheating is bad bandwagon, I wonder if any of them could look past that to see that you present an excellent question when it comes to vows and one that I have asked myself. People think that cheating is the worst thing you can do and when people think of breaking vows they often think of infidelity. I like how you brought up the fact that a spouse (husband or wife) who does not honor or respect their significant other has also broken their vows. Husbands cheat. Wives cheat. While I am not going to say that cheating is ok or justifiable, it is usually a side effect of something else and while the person who is cheated on is often thought of as the victim, it is worth looking closer to see the cause behind the action.

grownwoman
wrote on May 10 2009 @ 09:26 am: [report]

Yes, cheating may be a side effect but not necessarily resulting from poor treatment and disrespect that is undeserved or unwarranted.  It is a vicious circle but truly more often than not, it is a husband, being selfish, not doing their share, having to be asked for help.  Both parties signed up for the very difficult task of rearing children and it should not all fall on one.  Also, the s/o may be gambling, may be inappropriately spending significant amounts of time with others.  Likely, this is a ruse to get out of the difficult task of taking care of children, having to make tough decisions, dealing with all of the b.s.  So the relationship erodes and the wife gets snippy but it is in response to so many wrongs that have built up and finally the man cheats and gets sympathy from the nimrods who didn’t see how he passively went about destroying the family and relationship until out of desperation, his wife lashes out - perhaps hoping to shame him into be the man he needs to be.  Children definitely separate the men from the boys.  It’s easy to be lovey dovey when it is just the two of you. It is also easy to dismiss a lack of balls as a man so in love he is submissive to his wifes desires.

SummerLane
wrote on May 10 2009 @ 03:02 pm: [report]

Jon can’t leave Kate, do you know what kind of child support he would be paying?! Homeboy would have to live in a tent to pay for all of those kids!
I think cheating is horrible but I understand it. For instance “Hot married guy” at work has been married for 13 years and his wife never wants sex. And she’s shy about it and after 13 years still does not want to give a blow job! This man is the man dreams are made of, tall, dark, handsome, good with their kids, very supportive, etc. If you have something like that at home, you’d best be using it before someone else does! (And NO, I haven’t had sex with this man because I won’t cross that line but if he was single I’d be beating down the other ladies!)

saysay
wrote on May 10 2009 @ 10:50 pm: [report]

If you have the balls to cheat on someone, you should be more than capable of breaking up with them… and who cares is she’s a bitch.  You think he didn’t know she was an OCD ball-buster when they were dating? Give me a break.  My family was screwed up not once, but twice because of cheating and I can tell you that it’s a cowardly thing to do.  Man up (or woman) and be honest, your children will thank you later.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 11 2009 @ 12:26 am: [report]

I have to say I am appalled at some posters on here that seem to think that Jon cheating on Kate is somewhat ok, or at least less offensive, because she is a “bitch”. We don’t know them. They have 8 children and a ridiculously stressful life I’m sure, and I feel that it is extremely inapropriate to judge her *or him, we don’t know if hes done anything wrong or not* like that. I am so tired of people calling women bitches just because they are aggressive, assertive, or whatever. A woman’s job is not to be sweet and sugary and smile at her husband all day until he wants sex. If she has sh*t to get done, with 8 kids running around, maybe she needs to be a bit of a bitch. bitches get stuff done.

I don’t think cheating is ever excusable, but it can be forgivable in some very special circumstances. Although I have never stayed with anyone who has cheated on me, I do see it as a part of a bigger problem, and its usually two people that ruin a relationship, not just one. but using cheating as revenge is extremely immature in my opinion.  doesn’t solve anything and usually makes matters worse.

iscream4icecream
wrote on May 11 2009 @ 02:54 am: [report]

Wow! great topic. i had this convo just recently with my boyfriend. and i have to say before and after our discussion ended i was still supported in my opinion that YES! some women definitly 100% deserved to get cheated on and/or did not do there best (literally to avoid getting cheated on.

Lets put it like this. Men are men. even though in our generation (im 24) the manly behavior has been slashed for guys who are metro, guys who stay at home, guys who if they could would get pregnant and lets not forget guys who are just way to mellow example: “I trust my girlfriend with her best guy friend. theyve known each other for ages and she loves me so its absolutly no problem if shes friends with him”!!!

i think independant women sometimes forget the natural instincts of a man. its plain simple actually but in reality for some to hard to convert to real life. men are hunters. have been, always will be. period. no matter how mdern they all get they love the chase. and most men dont see cheating as CHEATING. ive spoken to so many on this topic and there all quite different from appearance,heritage,age,income bla bla. 95% said They LOVE their women,girlfriends or wives BUT they have had SEX with strangers. they seperate love &sex;strictly. they dont love these women, they sorry to say it like it is but they just #&@$% them. the old wham,bam, thank you maàm!

i had to ask WHY….....!!! and i swear they all said: im bored with the sex my girl is giving me. she dosent want to experiment, she dosent care about my needs or fantasies, she dosent get dolled up anymore, she dosent surprise me, she dosent swallow just to name a few…
i love my girl and i dont wanna be without her but on the sex level all she does is nag nag nag! and im bored. i mean ladies its not that hard to fufill mens need. there so simple. its like giving candy to a baby. i think if u dont want to get cheated on dont give him a reason. women can sometimes be too independant, too loud,toobold,too cool….. let him feel like a man. my aunt used to tell me this. even if your holding the reigns secretly, make him feel like he is. make him feel like your king. make him dinner every night, rub his feet, his head, surprise him with lingerie, #&@$% him till his head spins if that dosent get it, try something new goddamit! i know not everyone is up for this but to spice things up sex wise wy dont u get a third person to join? if hes jealous whatever! take another woman. you never know till you try. and yes ladies its not always about you. “i dont like the taste of it….that dosent morally fit my valus….that feeld dirty bla bla. get over it. or get ready to accept that your man will definitly at some point cheat on you. a Nagging,low self esteem,scruffy looking,complainig woman with no fantasy and only a to do list in the hand will definitly make him long for some sweet,kind loving TLC and a cookie

So bottom line: Get your ass up, treat him good and if he THEN cheats well hen hes just a fool for losing a perfect woman like you!!

Cèst la vie! Au revoir

if u turn it around, and al you have a

pornqueen
wrote on May 11 2009 @ 06:42 am: [report]

Cheating is never justified but I have done it as revenge for being cheated on and I cannot explain to you the GRATIFICATION/SATISFACTION felt.  Now, this does not mean his cheating hurt any less but causing him the same pain made mine more bearable.  I’m not saying this the the way to go for anyone, but it made me realize that I was still attractive and sexual, great validation! Being married for so long puts all these feelings on the back burner. So, yes, not justified or deserved but sometimes that’s the only way what will get you through, I say.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 11 2009 @ 10:34 am: [report]

@iscream4iscream:A woman should do whatever she wants, and not have to do anything that makes her uncomfortable just so her man will stay with her. Women are worth more than that, and if a guy says he “has” to cheat when his girlfriend or wife won’t do what he asks, then hes a jerk and that girl should find someone else.  I don’t buy that. Guys have self-restraint just like women, people saying that men’s sexual desire is so “uncontrollable” is complete bs. Thats just what a guy would tell you if he cheated because he wants you to feel bad so he doesn’t look like the as*hole he is. Both men and women cheat, so saying that a guy has no choice but to cheat if his significant other isn’t a sex maniac is completely irrelevant, judgemental, and ridiculously sexist.

reanerbean
wrote on May 12 2009 @ 07:38 am: [report]

@ SummerLane: I’m thinking he’s probably doing some stuff that’s also not in the best interest of the relationship if his coworkers know that much about his sex life with his wife. 

I don’t think cheating is ever justified, and I don’t think emasculating the one you love is ever justified either.

retro chic
wrote on May 12 2009 @ 09:18 am: [report]

Since this article addresses marriage: For me, all’s fair in love and war… or at least up for negotiation, BEFORE the Altar. After that, a deal’s a deal. Don’t make ones you aren’t prepared to keep—that’s marriage. Otherwise, don’t get married—cohab, or do a civil union and customize the terms to include a “gigolo/bimbo” cheater clause. There is no excuse for not openly addressing issues or unhappiness in a marriage, and by sneaking around making your own side arrangement.

The Jon/Kate UNreality Show example… I disagree with the word “provoke” and “pushing into the arms of another…” or “they had it coming”? Everyone is responsible for their own actions. Seldom is a gun held to anyone’s head. When did things go from on-camera bitching to justified real-life cheating? Like others mentioned here, the cameras are no indication of what is really going on behind closed doors where real life is lived… absurd. If there are problems, ID them and problem-solve. There is no Free Pass to go directly to Cheat. The passive ones always paint a picture of Victim. The bitcher, many times the overt show of hostility is actually an inept cry for help, unfortunately playing into the Victim’s equally inept handling of matters. They both deserve what they have.

valisono
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 07:33 am: [report]

Cheating may not be morally right, but it can be understandable.  Relationships *are* about mutual commitment.  It should therefore not be surprising if a person cheats on an emotionally or physically abusive, sexually unavailable partner.

Women (and I am a woman) have such strong views against cheating, I think, because so much is at stake.  Our husbands might leave us, stranding us with four kids and severely reduced financial resources.  Or our boyfriends / fiancees might leave us, leaving us with a loudly ticking clock. 

The strong mores against cheating, however, should not allow women to believe that they can act with total impunity against their partners and still hold the total and undivided devotion of their partners.

og217
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 01:13 pm: [report]

There are certain things that once done, forever tilt the see-saw.  No matter what a horrid, cruel, manipulative, sex-less, screaming harpie a woman is for years, once she is cheated on, the see-saw hurls her up in the air while the guy plummets down.  She’s now the victim and he’s the evil bad guy.  I think cheating is pretty awful and I agree that if a guy is unhappy he should man up and leave (child support sucks, but he made that bed, I guess).  I just don’t think that it’s fair to immediately bestow “angel-martyr” status on the person who was cheated on.  Sometimes people are awful and nasty to their partners and while those partners should not respond with beatings, cheating or other drastic inflictions of pain, the fact can oftentimes be that he cheated, but she’s still a b*tch from hell.

retro chic
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 01:41 pm: [report]

valisono and og217… Cheaters will cheat no matter what. Period. It’s a propensity. Otherwise, they’d go to their nasty spouse and want to work things out, divorce, or sadly allow for the joint decision to “cheat.” The sneaky unilateral decision to bypass that little convo is at the heart of cheating.

But, people with no propensity to cheat, won’t—no matter how “justified.” The few that do are remorseful or want to be found out.

I would classify John Edwards as a true cheater, the entitled sneak who wants to have his cake and eat it, too. Jon/Kate, otoh, are lost and inept—the surreal UNreality show pushing them both over the edge. They are an anomaly.

Oneguy
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 02:22 pm: [report]

“iscream4icecream” vs. “PinkRanger”:
My feeling is that the former will be much more successful and happy in life. Even tho the latter may be more politically correct. It’s results that count.

As for the people who think cheating is breaking the marriage vows: There are a LOT of other promises made in marriage besides fidelity. When a wife (or husband) ceases to be the loving and supportive partner they pledged to be, they have broken the vows first. Why isn’t bitchiness given as much weight in this equation as infidelity?

PinkRanger
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 02:26 pm: [report]

@Oneguy:  I’m quite content with a partner that respects me and my wishes, and I respect his in return. And I definitely think men deserve more credit. they aren’t all complete fiends that “have” to cheat if their girlfriend isn’t kinky. Not sure why you would think I must be unhappy just because I don’t think men are generally shallow and void of emotion.

aroundtheblock
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 02:42 pm: [report]

“Cheating” is the one thing American women can agree on—its the one unforgivable sin and never the lesser of two evils.  If life were only that black and white.  What if the wife is unable as a result of a long-term illness to have a normal sex life, as might be the case with Elizabeth Edwards? Would it have really been better for John to have deserted and abandoned her (and the kids), rather than try to meet his sexual needs with an affair kept discreet so as not to hurt her feelings? 

People who have abandoned traditional sexual morality and have made “no cheating” the only rule usually ignore, or don’t care, about the overwhelming evidence that divorce is usually bad for kids, even if the marriage is less than perfect.  Sure, the third option is that the man can simply deal with the lack of a normal sex life by becoming monk-like, but the single-criteria “no cheating” advocates claim that is never necessary, the person can simply leave.  However, in many situations it appears obvious that deserting wife and family is the least honorable, and most harmful, of all the options, including that of a discreet affair.

Oneguy
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 03:09 pm: [report]

@PinkRanger: I’m sorry—I shouldn’t have made it personal. As I scanned these posts, I was getting irritated with many of them because of the way they minimized the damage caused by nasty wives—as tho a wife could act like a monster for years, yet that behavior is immediately forgiven after a husband’s (eventual) infidelity.
I impulsively latched onto your comment “Bitches get stuff done” as symbolic of this whole attitude. 
Iscream4icecream presented a refreshing counterpoint, and I simply wanted to point out that her approach probably leads to better overall results.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 03:27 pm: [report]

@Oneguy:I would have to disagree. I think trust is a key issue, their point of view seemed to believe that we can’t trust men, and have to compete with all others for their affection, and doing anything he wants in bed. I don’t feel like that is a healthy point of view. You should have an understanding in a relationship, you should know what you both want, and be able to build trust on top of that. No, a woman shouldn’t act like a “bitch” *I cringe at that word when used in a lot of contexts* but that is not necessarily a break in trust, and if it is, then a partner has the right to say something to her, and try and work out issues, or even end it if it is severe enough. it does not give him permission to cheat. and yes, I think cheating is worse than bitchiness, there are so many other ways to work out problems then betraying your partner’s trust.

In my experience, you get overall better results when you have complete trust in a relationship and aren’t terrified that if you don’t comply with your guys wants he’ll sleep with the gal next door. Much better results. Shows mutual respect.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 03:35 pm: [report]

@Oneguy: also, my comment that “bitches get stuff done” was just referring to Jon and Kate in an attempt to point out that we don’t know them and only see a very small glimpse into their lives so its unfair to call her a bitch, plus the fact that shes chasing 8 kids around! I still stand by my statement that I’m tired of women getting called bitches for doing things that are considered acceptable for men to do. Like be assertive, controlling and aggressive. Although those aren’t always positive attributes, I don’t feel like gender makes any difference in their worth.

KathyMD
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 07:40 pm: [report]

Is cheating ever deserved? No.  Cheating, however, can be used as a weapon or a way to gain some control in a relationship, which is the point of this column.  Look, no one wants to be cheated on.  I can’t think of a single more hurtful thing a person can do.  But there are various forms of abuse that also cause pain.  Physical abuse is obviously one of them, but so is verbal abuse. And respect—mutual respect—is THE basis of a successful marriage.  Opportunities to be unfaithful do not come around very often, but every moment of the day represents an opportunity to be respectful to your spouse… or not.

I find it interesting that a few people have said that they either need to fix the marriage or end it.  Well, “fixing” a marriage takes an effort on both people’s part, and Kate is NOT the type of person to admit she’s doing anything wrong.  She constantly inflicts emotional pain on Jon.  He’s not the type to become abusive back a her.  He’s passive aggressive, so he’s going to get back to her by cheating.  Cheating isn’t deserved, but in Jon’s case he did it to get back at her and maybe take control of the situation.  Who knows?  Maybe now they’ll address their issues or move on.

Pinkranger, you need some sex, and then once your mind clears you need to look at the bigger picture.  Kate is not being “manlike.”  If a man said half the things she says people would think he was the biggest a=hole that ever lived.  Kate IS the very definition of a bitch!  She did NOT deserve to be cheated on, but it was Jon’s way of gaining control.  Again, maybe now they will work it out and fix their marriage?

bloomoon
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 08:01 pm: [report]

Would just like to say… let’s not just blame the men, those drooling, skirt-chasing horndogs. Women are bitches, vows are vows and can be broken in MANY ways. I’ve been on both sides of this fence. It’s very rarely black and white….

JoeBlow
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 08:17 pm: [report]

Not Okay, ever. And never justifiable for ANY reason. If you don’t love or like the person your with, have the self respect to leave them. If they are bad to you, leave them. Cheating only makes you the bad guy/gal and proves that you are neither trustworthy nor to be respected for any reason. If I so much as go on a date with a woman and she mentions that she has cheated in the past, it’s over that instant. I have literally walked away from a date in the middle of the date. In my own opinion, anyone who has cheated on a partner is not someone that would ever be worth my time or effort. As the saying goes…once a cheater, always a cheater. Nothing will make me lose all respect and regard for a person (man or woman) than to learn that they have cheated on an ex; I don’t even care if the ex was abusive. Have enough self respect to walk away. As a man with principles, cheating is one thing I can say with 100% certainty that I will never, ever do to someone, even if I don’t like them. A cheater is the very definition of a scum bag in my book.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 08:47 pm: [report]

@KathyMD: whoa, not sure why people get off on being so disrespectful on here. I pretty much agreed with everything you said, I just don’t think we know Kate so how can we judge her? You definitely don’t know her so you’re not being fair making such judgements about her marriage, its a waste of time, and quite frankly, immature.

Who says I’m not getting any? And why would you imply that it makes me less deserving of respect if I wasn’t? I have talked in this very thread about my boyfriend. you have a really effed up attitude to be throwing daggers for no reason on the internet. And I didn’t say kate was “manlike” I"m saying the reason people call her a bitch are the same reasons people praise men for “taking control” and things like that.

not sure why so many people are throwing personal attacks at me on this thread. I’m not allowed to have a different opinion than you? sounds like some people are threatened. I might be right after all.

Alison Wonderland
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 09:39 pm: [report]

PinkRanger I agree with you. Bitches get sh** done! It’s a saying I’ve heard a number of times. Obviously there’s difference between a truly vindictive b* and an assertive woman with a goal. We only see what is editted and aired so how can we know for sure what Jon and Kate’s relationship is like. It’s no body’s business to be discussing their personal affairs like this.

I can agree somewhat with icecream’s ‘keep it fresh’ approach. But both parties should be interested in keeping it fresh. New experiences are a great way to get/stay close. It’s a team effort. A woman should not have to feel like she is in competition with the rest of the women in society for her mans affections.

theattack
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 09:44 pm: [report]

PinkRanger:
I completely agree with you, and I’m so sorry that it seems no one is respecting you just because you disagree. How immature.

If anyone is going to pass judgment on this situation, the only fair way to do it is to completely remove their genders from the situation. Men do not have to be catered to sexually any differently than women do. Those of you that think his cheating was justified need to think about what it would be like if their genders were reversed.

iscream: Women are NOT designed to serve men sexually or otherwise. I don’t even know how you can say this since, I assume, you are a woman. How about if the man wasn’t satisfying the woman, or was being mean to her? Would it be any different? Would her cheating on him be justified? Or would you think that she should end things before she stooped to that level?

A relationship is about equality and trust. They signed up for it. They knew what they were getting into. If they didn’t want to be faithful and work out their problems without cheating, they shouldn’t have done it. If they can, they should leave. If their situation doesn’t allow them to with all of their children, then they both need to suck it up and do what they promised to do.
The cheating and the bitchiness are not related. Cheating isn’t justified by her bitchiness, but her bitchiness is also not excusable. Those situations need to be handled separately, and revenge is only going to complicate the situation to a point that it is no longer fixable.

retro chic
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 09:56 pm: [report]

JoeBlow, Thank you!
Oneguy, KathyMD, aroundtheblock, et al, I find the ones who excuse or rationalize generally have some “experience” with this, and shouldn’t get married. We all know the reasons people cheat. The problem is one has decided for both, behind the other’s back. And “bitchiness” equal to infidelity… seriously?
In the case of Jon/Kate—we don’t know these people. Their real and private personalities/problems were there before the UNREALshow.
As for John/Elizabeth—She point-blank said (in her book and many interviews) the only thing she requested of him as a gift or promise to keep—was his faithfulness. Then he has a baby with a mistress while Elizabeth’s puking from chemo?! Total betrayal. It is not about sparing her feelings, but narcissistically keeping his options open and sinking career afloat. You want to show someone you really care? Be honest with them.

retro chic
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 10:19 pm: [report]

@Pinkranger, I was intermittently writing my treatise and cooling off when you were catching heat, so, got your back too!
Flamers: Hurry, hide your husbands and small children… the bitches (who get things done) are back!

PinkRanger
wrote on May 14 2009 @ 11:49 pm: [report]

@Retro Chic, theattack, & alison wonderland: Aw thanks guys! for a minute I was wondering if I was missing something, glad to see I’m not the only one who feels this way!

ThRive
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 12:11 am: [report]

I offer no defense for cheating, but any of you who are defending bitchiness ( and I do not mean assertiveness ), are either ignorant from not having experienced enough real life yet, or in denial.  A bitchy wife can destroy the inside of a marriage just as completely as a cheat can.  Love and respect go out the window just as quick either way.

Oneguy
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 12:26 am: [report]

It’s disappointing that there can be such a knee-jerk, circle-the-wagons reaction to the intelligent posts of people like aroundtheblock and KathyMD (not counting the unnecessary personal attacks).

You hardliners are not consistent: You say that treating a partner badly is not good, yet you claim some perverse right to be bitchy.

All I’m trying to make clear is that yes partners need to respect each other and work out their disagreements. But being a decent partner involves more than simply being faithful. A wife has no right to make her husband miserable. In that way, it’s no less a violation of marriage vows than infidelity.

In fact I googled some marriage vows, both traditional and non, and was surprised that less than half of them even mention the idea of faithfulness! But virtually all stress loving the partner UNCONDITIONALLY. Seems like wives who nag can be more easily accused of violating the sacred vows than husbands who cheat! But I’m not a lawyer… 

And IScream doesn’t advocate women “serving” men. I’d argue that it’s really the other way around. As she stated: “even if your holding the reigns secretly, make him feel like he is.” This is something that I’m afraid feminism just doesn’t understand. In the effort to be “equal” and “fair”, women are losing the real feminine power they’ve had throughout all time.

I wouldn’t want to live in a society without gender differences. I think women are great, and shouldn’t be trying to emulate men’s “aggression and controlling”—that’s a giant step downward for them. Two wrongs don’t make a right.

theattack
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 12:40 am: [report]

Oneguy,
Hell no I’m not going to lie and pretend to make a man feel better. How is that fair at all? Relationships shouldn’t be about lying to make each other feel like they better fit into their masculine standards set by society. Women are perfectly capable also, and we want the credit for being capable. Yes, we’ve done behind the scenes work for years, but that’s not equality at all. Men shouldn’t have to feel like they’re “holding the reigns,” and women definitely should NOT lie and pretend to them to make them feel like they are. And yes, letting them think they’re in control is also serving men. Women do not exist solely to satisfy their men and then make them feel manly by societal standards. Why can’t we all just be who we are and not try to conform to these societal standards that obviously don’t work out well anyway?

theattack
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 12:42 am: [report]

And women can naturally be aggressive too. We’re not trying to emulate man’s aggression. We have our own aggression, and we shouldn’t have to hide it. Much in the same way that guys have their own sensitive sides and hide them. You shouldn’t have to. We’re all just people with a wide range of moods and personalities, and we need to stop trying to box our identities into only one mood because it “fits our gender.” No. Just no.

Oneguy
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 01:24 am: [report]

@theattack: To steer this back on topic and relate back to my first post: All I’m saying is, as a guy, if I had the choice of coming home to a shrew like Kate, or a more “traditional” woman like Iscream, I’d be an idiot to choose Kate. And 99% of males would agree. And I’m not likely to cheat on Iscream. Just being honest.

Granted, these are two wild extremes. But it doesn’t take a genius to see that a more positive, loving environment is going to trump a bitchy one. And the key is that someone like iscream KNOWS what she is doing, is not being coerced, is not a victim, and ENJOYS it. She’s using her intelligence to create a happy life for herself and her partner.

How is that unfair? And equality—that’s just another word for “lack of diversity”. I thought diversity was a good thing nowadays?

Oneguy
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 04:15 am: [report]

JoeBlow, your post was back a ways, and it crossed my mind that it might be a phony post just to stimulate more activity on this site. But I’ll take the bait anyway, kind of as a warning to those who feel as you do.

Your bio puts you at 33 years old. When I was that age, almost 20 years ago, I probably felt the same way. I was happily married, with a lovely wife, a terrific young son, a great career, a windfall in the bank from the sale of a home right at the peak of the last real estate boom in the late 1980s. I was more responsible than a Wall Street banker. (ha)

I felt I was a man of principles all my life: Never cheated at school or got into trouble as a kid. Had great grades, graduated fifth in my high school class. Was highly valued at all my jobs, mainly because I was something of a perfectionist. When your whole life is about trying to do good, it can go to your head like that.

And it can make you expect the same from others—like your wife. It starts slowly, with little differences in the way you want to raise your kids. Usually, it’s the mother who gets picky about child-rearing, but in our case, I was the one who wanted to do everything right. She was much more relaxed.

Anyway, you try to compromise, but these things start to chip away at a relationship. I’ve heard that women gain their power through motherhood, and I believe it. Suddenly everything switches from spouse-centered “dating mode” to child-centered “parent-mode.” Which would not have been a problem, since I too switched to parent-mode. But we just weren’t on the same page as parents.

This escalated over time and the conflicts started moving into other areas. Hurtful things were said. Your perfect life starts to veer, because you don’t understand how your wife can be so unsupportive and unhappy.

You go to work and meet The Other Woman. She was a new mother herself, and appreciated my attitudes about children. She admired my competence on the job. I liked that she was a great conversationalist. Her husband was a lot like my wife; neither of us felt appreciated by our mates. We worked together; we became friends.

I swear to God, I never expected to be a cheater. The idea was ridiculous—I was never “popular” with women. And how could a perfectionist possibly stoop to that scum bag level? How could a father who strives for a great life with his family risk it all?

I was dumbfounded when she made the first sexual advance. And I am proud of the fact that I turned her down that first time.

But that’s all I can be proud of. Until you are literally presented with a willing, younger, attractive partner who thinks you’re a hero, I don’t think you can know what you’ll do.

Although it was the biggest mistake of my life, I gave in to her a few days later. Even today I’m shocked that my first gut instinct was to say no, and that only after thinking about it did I decide “yes I deserve this because my wife does not appreciate me.”

The affair ended 10 years ago. But here’s the big problem, and the whole reason for this response to JoeBlow: Even tho my wife has tried to forgive me, I can’t forgive MYSELF. How could I, Mr. Perfect, have made the H-bomb of mistakes? I know what I did was extremely hurtful. Since that time I’ve been chronically underemployed, I keep letting my clients down, all our savings is gone and instead I have huge debt, and the marriage is in bad shape. It’s as though I don’t feel worthy to succeed anymore.

So JoeBlow, be careful. Imagine how badly you too would feel if someday you slip up and make a mistake. Nothing in life is 100 percent.

I can’t justify what I did. But it seems that if I weren’t so serious and self-righteous, I might have been able to get over my transgression and move on.

So now maybe the rest of you can understand what’s behind my other posts, which are all about how important it is for wives to be “nice” rather than “bitchy”. Because even though it’s my fault that I cheated, and I can’t blame my wife for this disaster, I’m quite sure that if I had a pleasant homelife, if I felt appreciated, there would have been no need for the other woman, who gave me unconditional love and acceptance. That’s what I needed, more than sex.

This is the first time I’ve come clean about this in “public.” I’m already at rock bottom, so take your shots.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 09:30 am: [report]

@Oneguy: I appreciate your honesty, and I agree that cheating is a result of bigger relationship problems 99% of the time, but in this last post it really seems like you’re agreeing with us. Sounds like you think cheating is terrible too. not sure how this was supposed to change our minds at all. My defense of “bitchiness” was because that is a term that gets thrown around a lot. As a feminist and a former women’s studies major that term gets flung at me constantly just because I don’t fit into social norms. I think it is an overused term. For example, people do not want to stop calling hilary clinton a bitch. She acts just like any politician does, and yes shes a bit cold, but thats politics. But because she is a woman and the social norms are for women to be “warm” and “nice” she gets labeled as a bitch. Now, don’t get me wrong, I didn’t even vote for her lol, but thats just an example of what I was talking about. I don’t think a woman should treat her husband badly, but not every woman who isn’t gtting along with her husband is a “bitch”.

oh and yeah, I don’t care if traditional “marriage vows” don’t mention faithfulness, thats ridiculous, you still can’t cheat.

and I really do appreciate your honesty from the bottom of my heart!!

iscream4icecream
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 12:27 pm: [report]

wow! i guess this topic and me posting my opinion has got som`thin started ok ok so to “PINKRANGER” im not wanting to judge you but by the looks of your profile pic u look young and soforth maybe you havent ecperienced much about real relationships. when i say real i mean REAL. Ever been in a relationship for a couple of years? maintining the bond you both had, to keep things rollin as the blows get harder, the pressure keeps rising… not those childish “yes were togehter but as soon as the next pretty guy/girl passes my way”. i mean giving up certain things and truly compromising for the sake of the relationship, jobs, family, dreams that havent been fufilled, stuff like that.

And yes i am a Woman. i just turned 24 and i have been in a 5 year relationship, a 2-1/2 year relationship and in between ive had a blast being the pretty single girl. I never said cheatig is okay, the question here was “is cheating ever deserved”? and i said YES! i thibk (and know) that alot of women my age or older who have gotten cheaten on or who themselves cheat. yes its egotistical because the actual problem is that people who cheat most of the time love their spouse and under no circumstances want to lose him/her. but YES they go after their own needs that are neglected instead of fufilling their spouses. whatvere that may be. i just happened to talk about SEX. but i might as well to break it down for you say that neglection can be on many other topics. as soon as u start giving up your own needs, you start fufilling someone elses. example? ok lets say you hate dogs, your guy loves them. he even loved you so much that he got rid of his dog for you. at first it seems so sweet, and we women get overlyexcited and feel empowered because someone is doing this for us. but if youn look behind all the mushy stuff its plain and clear. He gave up his love that he might of had his whole life for you. bottom line. so instead of getting a dog, or for that matter keeping his he dosent. does that mean because he did it for you his longing for a pet dosent dissapear. it just gets shoved in the back and surpressed. to keep it on this example lets say the guy secretly goes to the shelter or the park to play with dogs… just for the simple plain fact that he loves them.

all im trying to say is that cheating or any other form of secrecy igies back to communication. if your such a Bitch and only care about what someone can do for you but not what you can do for someone else, even if its way out of your comfort zone. and yes i think that women can and have acted this way. ive never cheated to be honest but i cant say that i wouldnt if i feel that i cant talk openly to my partner about what makes me happy. and if its a goddamn dog

ONEGUY said i just have a different approach to this. of xourse i wouldnt want to be cheated on, but if so i would ask myself if i did everything possible for my relationship to last and overcome temptation. and SEX sorry pinkpowerranger is a b.i.g factor. its not about doing everything for your guy. your approach is just what i mean, this whole “feminine womens independant i wont do #&@$% for nobody but myself” view just sucks. trust me im very independant and strong. but i know when to be weak and i know when to put my foot down and when just no to. not because im empowering my guy, but because i know that just as much as i want to feel like a woman in alot of situations my man wants the same. this whole “we are equal” BS is just an illusion and the bottom line is that WE are the ones who at the end suffer because of it. go ahead be strong, be cool, act like u dont need anybody, sing “i will survive” and “R.E.S.P.E.C.T” as much as you want to but when your 35 with 2 kids and bills to pay while your guy is actually the independant one who only has to take care of himself youll quickly realize that the roll youve been fighting against all this time has bitten you in the ass. im realistic and i want to be a good wife one day, i will stand tall bet that, but yes i will do everything for him and expect nothing less in return.

IF..yes IF he still cheats then hes just a DOG. lifes a bitch

PinkRanger
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 12:46 pm: [report]

@iscream: I"m older than you! I’m 25, and have been in several long term relationships.

People seem to assume sometimes that since I’m a self-proclaimed feminist that must mean I don’t know about “real” relationships. I definitely do. And I agree with a lot of the points you’ve made, but I think you’re making a lot of broad assumptions *I’m guilty of that on this site too sometimes lol* I don’t think feminism is about “doing everything for yourself” as you seem to interpret it, and let me clarify that there is a difference between equality and sameness. Equality means equal oppurtunities for respect, while still embracing differences. Sameness is creepy ayn rand s*it lol.l

Feminism is often about having these equal oppurtunites, and even today sexuality is another obstacle that women face. Some men and women still have old-fashioned views in which it is more acceptable and expected for women to pleasure men and not the other way around for example. So it irked me when I thought you meant that women need to dive into men’s fantasies and not the other way around. The main thing that bothered me was the way you talked about the sexual differences between men and women that I personally don’t believe exist. Half the time I’m hornier than my boyfriend!

Anyway, I interpreted your first post as saying that men have a more intense sexual desire than women, and that is definitely not true. I felt like you were saying men have a reason to cheat, but women do not. I apologize if I misinterpreted that *which I’m starting to think I did* but more and more research is coming out that men and women have equal sexual desire, that the differences that seem so obvious are socially constructed, not to say that doesn’t mean they aren’t significant, socially ingrained attitudes and behaviors can be as difficult to shake as biological ones.

But what I’m saying is you should both know what you want in a relationship, and if someone is dissatisfied, I don’t think that means cheating is deserved. There are other ways to work things out. And hell, sometimes you can’t work things out, and thats life. Chalks up to a difference in opinion no hating here.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 12:57 pm: [report]

another thing. why the hell do people keep making assumptions about me bcause I’m a feminist? on this thread alone I’ve been accused of being unsuccessful, unhappy, “inexperienced”, and someone even said I need to get “laid”. seriously commenters? seriously?  when I hear things like that I automatically assume that that person must feel threatened by my feminist ideals, and if thats not the case then you need to learn another way to communicate. personal attacks on the internet are useless people. and saying that I need to get “laid” just perpetuates the idea that a woman is worthless if she isn’t pleasing a dude. real nice.

I’m worth a whole hell of a lot more than that.

Chico B
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 01:13 pm: [report]

I would love to live in a world as black & white as some of you seem to inhabit.

It’s called cheating for a reason, but for something that’s apparently so stick-your-fingers-in-your-ears unthinkable, it sure happens a lot in this world. It might be good for the absolutists among you to consider why that is.

People aren’t monsters if they cheat. Wrong, sure. Evil, no.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 01:20 pm: [report]

@Chico B: Cheating is definitely a result a bigger issue, another reason I got upset at the idea that its about a woman not fulfilling her man sexually. Sex is important, but cheating is usually not about sex. Its usually indicative of a bigger problem. Still inexcusable. but forgiveable depending on the circumstances and the people involved of course.

Chico B
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 01:29 pm: [report]

Absolutely, PinkRanger. I just find the moral absolutism of otherwise reasonable people on this one particular subject kind of irrational and curious.

aroundtheblock
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 01:47 pm: [report]

The problem with the position of most women on this post is that they make “cheating” the only unforgivable sin in a marriage, even when its giving in to the weakness of sex starvation.  How about a wife that gives in to her weakness for food and sloth and becomes so obese that she is sexually repulsive to her husband/wife?  How about a wife/husband who constantly verbally and emotionally abuses their spouse for years?  Why aren’t those violations of the marriage vows just as inexcusable as cheating? I for one would much prefer to find out my otherwise sweet and wonderful spouse had a one-night stand than suffer verbal abuae for years from a hag who never cheated.

The main problem with people who view chaatng as the only unforgivable sin rather than one of many possible failures or shortcomings in a marriage is that they have no appreciation for the importance of marriage AND its permanence to society and children. Study after atudy has demonstrated that the number one problem in society stems from the lack of the biological father in the home, whether through illegitimacy or divorce, and that divorce is almost always worse for children than staying in an unhappy marriage.
By encouraging people to desert their spouses and families when they become dissatified and unhappy simply to avoid the increased temptation to commit the unforgivable sin of cheating, the “no cheating” Johnny one-notes do a disservice to those families and children.  It’s easy to say “I could never cheat” when you reserve the option to desert your spouse whenever “your needs aren’t being met”—- its still cheating even if you don’t start till after you leave since you took a vow to be faithful till death, but its made worse by your desertion—- you are a deserting cheater!

PinkRanger
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 01:58 pm: [report]

@aroundtheblock: the reason we are focusing on cheating is because this thread is about cheating. I don’t think anyone could honestly say cheating is the biggest problem with relationships and marriage unless they are just reeling from anger.

And c’mon, a woman getting bigger *metabolism goes down as we get old, k?* is not just as bad as infidelity.

Plus, I know children whose lives were incredibly screwed up because their parents didn’t believe in divorce *I was raised extremely fundamental catholic* the constant presence of tension and anger and verbal abuse was emotionally damaging in ways that now as adults they still suffer. Every family is different, there are no clean-cut rules of marriage or relationships.

aroundtheblock
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 02:21 pm: [report]

PinkRanger, I was responding to the “fix it or move on” argument.  That’s well and good for a temporary hook-up or shack-up with no kids, but children have paid a huge price as a result of people adopting it with respect to their marriages.  And for many wives with kids, desertion is the ultimate betrayal of trust—- and tens of millions have been deserted!  Many women have preferred the “don’t ask, don’ tell” with respect to their husband’s frequent business travel out of town, the Ray Charles movie was an illustration of this, over abandonment and divorce.  For intance, in Hong Kong, most of the businessmen have their HK wife (“big wife”) and family and a secret mainline China wife (“little wife”) and family.  The HK wife usually suspects this, but does not raise the issue with her husband—she dosen’t want to risk losing him.  All through history, men have had as many wifes/cuncubines as they could afford.  Men can truly love more than one woman at a time.  However, that has never been true for women—- a parallel relationship by a woman is always, in her heart, a true emotional betrayal of the first.  That’s why many women are such fanatics about this—they assume its the same for men.

Oneguy
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 02:26 pm: [report]

@PinkRanger: I don’t think I or anyone on this thread ever implied that cheating was a good thing. Yes I think it’s terrible. The minds I’m trying to change are the ones that try to minimize the importance of being a loving partner.

Some people who rely on a “marriage vow guarantee” of fidelity may drift into the mode of taking their partner for granted. That’s why I disagree with the absolutist opinions here (not necessarily yours) that seem to say that one partner can do just about anything to the other, short of infidelity, yet somehow be absolved if their partner strays.

Like the stereotypical nagging/bitch wife. Does she deserve to be cheated on? No. Could she have prevented it? Sure!

Of course it applies to men too. An abusive husband shouldn’t be surprised if his wife strays: HE’S THE ONE WHO BROKE THE MARRIAGE VOWS.

That’s the social change I’d like to see: The sanctity of marriage shouldn’t be defined by what people do with their genitals. (Doesn’t that seem pretty primitive, actually?) It should encompass the entirety of the relationship. If nagging and abuse became as socially taboo as infidelity… wow. I think we could save the institution of marriage!

sam04
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 02:32 pm: [report]

This is certainly a heated topic!

I think there are lots of “bad” things people can do in relationships to cause them to end or be irreparably damaged.  Cheating or being verbally abusive are two of them.  I don’t think there’s really a rating system in place to list the awful ways we can treat our partners in order of most to least.  What sets cheating apart, though, is that it’s so CLEARLY a terrible thing to do.  By even a single act of cheating, you are most likely going to ruin your relationship.  Everyone knows that.  Verbally abusing your partner chips away at the relationship over time and it’s not as easy for the person who’s doing it to realize the effects of their actions.  Ripping your partner apart one day because you’re in a nasty mood isn’t going to be such a big deal.  Doing it every day for years is.

To me, if a relationship is so damaged that you’d be willing to cheat on your partner or find yourself treating them like #&@$%, then you need to have the guts to say “this isn’t working” and either fix it or end it.  Turning a blind eye to your problems and seeking solace elsewhere will never make the problem go away.

As for the concept of how all this affects children, well… it’s even more complicated.  My father’s been married three times, my mother has been married (and divorced) four times.  While it was certainly traumatic for my sisters and I to be constantly adjusting to a new step-parent at every turn and having such complicated home lives, we were never a witness to any of the bitterness that was involved in a divorce.  I think I turned out to be a fairly well-adjusted young adult despite my parents’ marital unrest.  As it is, I have very little faith in the idea of two people spending their lives together and find it difficult to completely trust people.  I can’t imagine what I’d be like if my parents had stayed married and just hated one another for all those years!

PinkRanger
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 02:58 pm: [report]

@aroundtheblock: sorry but I don’t think the “little wife” example changes my mind at all. The wife is still unhappy and disapointed by her husband’s relationship with other women. that is a big problem. and biologically women and men are not that different in terms of sexual desire, contrary to popular belief. so I don’t find someone’s gender as an excuse to take a mistress. You kind of made my point in your argument. Its not the same for men. And men should remember that, and attempt to make their partner’s happy. Women should do the same, but allowing your husband to sleep with other women is not going to work for a vast majority of couples. “don’t ask don’t tell” is ridiculous.

Keesh Mia
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 03:00 pm: [report]

@Cheeeeeeese Why not date a guy name John Devore?  He is sooooo cute.  Did you see his baby picture?  He is adorable.  I want to put him on my piano as I play “New York, New York”

theattack
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 03:16 pm: [report]

If it comes to not wanting to leave the relationship because of the kids, but both partners are still unhappy, there are other less conventional ways to solve it. You can talk it out and maybe agree to openness. Agree that it’s okay for both partners to seek out someone else, for example. I think someone already said that on here. Not everything can be black and white.
But when it comes to the first question of whether or not cheating is justified by bitchiness, those are two entirely different situations. Neither are acceptable, and I don’t think anyone is saying that being a bitch is excusable but cheating isn’t. But if you fight fire with fire, you’re both only going to get burned. The two situations need to be addressed separately.

aroundtheblock
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 03:54 pm: [report]

I understand why women (and men) view cheating in marriage as a serious infraction. I’m married, but for those in the dating world, to play devil’s advocate, why is it such a huge deal in “relationships” with no real commitment?  Neither one has really committed to the other, otherwise they would be engaged or married! So both are keeping their options open for something better that comes along. Both have usually had prior sex partners and will likely have more in the future.  If one starts a new sexual relationship “on the way out” of the current one in that situation, even if it was dishonestly hidden, why is that considered so much more inportant than the other typical dishonesties and selfishness that go with the process of breaking up?

Most people deceptively hide a job search from their current employer, and sometimes even start a new job, before they give notice.  Are all those people unforgivable cheaters?  Should they always quit first (or tell their current employer) befoe interviewing with new employers? Most people would say no, when they see the current job relationship is not working, they need to make sure there is no gap in income to ensure their financial needs are met.  See the analogy to sex relationships?

PinkRanger
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 04:01 pm: [report]

@aroundtheblock: I respect your opinion, but your example of finding a new job doesn’t make sense. Jobs are not the same type of emotional investments and commitments that romantic relationships are. They are not on the same personal level. being unemployed is much different than being single.

aroundtheblock
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 04:28 pm: [report]

So PinkRanger it’s just a matter of degree?  Because jobs are not as big a commitment as a sex relationship, then its OK to “cheat” by hiding your exploration of potential new employers (partners)from your current one?  As far as seriousness, I think many people, especially in NYC, treat their jobs as a far more serious commitment than their current sex relationship. I have felt real betrayal, justified or not, when one of my employees left unexpectedly with another job already lined up and no chance for me to try to patch things up and make the relationship better.  And my example was where the sex relationship had no real commitment equivalent to marriage, both are treating it as tenative.  I agree that marriage is a whole different ball game. 

And can’t the need for intimacy (and sex) be just as compelling, or more so, than the need for money? And thus justifying the need to ensure no long break in it when coming out of a failed relationship? I’m just playing devil’s advocate here to point out what I think is an inconsistency in the “holier than thou” “cheaters are not real humans” advocates.  Most people can justify or at least excuse “cheating,” i.e., deception in relationships, if it is seen to be in their best interest.

Alison Wonderland
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 07:21 pm: [report]

aroundtheblock: ‘Overlapping’ was discussed last week.
http://www.thefrisky.com/post/246-dating-donts-the-overlapper/

Little Lamb
wrote on May 16 2009 @ 08:39 am: [report]

@aroundtheblock-
Do you really believe that it is not possible for a woman to love two men at the same time???  Either someone has been filling you full of #&@$% to boost your ego/calm your fears, or you’ve been lying to yourself for emotional protection. 

Also, I wholeheartedly disagree that the boyfriend/girlfriend relationship has no real commitment.  Many people choose to not get married for reasons other than wanting to keep their options open.  My boyfriend told me after three months of dating that he was going to marry me.  One year later, I still don’t have a ring on my finger (but he has it somewhere in his house!!!), but we didn’t get engaged right away because we needed to make sure we could make it through anything…fights, family stuff, jobs…not because we were going to see if anything better moved to town in the next year.

One of the big problems that I have with cheating verses the name-calling, ass-chewing behaviors is that when someone is being cheated on, they usually don’t know that it is going on.  When the behaviors are upfront, you truly have the power to make an informed decision whether to stay or leave that person.  When one party is sneaking around, the other person is unable to make an informed choice.

Oneguy
wrote on May 16 2009 @ 07:48 pm: [report]

Only indirectly related to cheating, but triggered by Little Lamb’s last post and a few others:

My future wife and I dated for 4 YEARS before marriage. Then waited ANOTHER 4 YEARS before having a child, just to be sure we were gonna work out.

But as I said earlier, a kid changes it all. No more “dating mode.” Suddenly the sacrifices and compromises you were willing to make for each other are much tougher when each starts dealing with his-and-her own flesh-and-blood offspring.

If I could do it over again, I’d put a lot more effort into studying a potential mate’s family dynamics and dysfunctions. And somehow try to simulate parental roles, maybe by getting babysitting jobs together, or volunteering to work with children. Yeah, if you plan to have kids, it’s that important.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 16 2009 @ 09:42 pm: [report]

I just meant that being unemployed is more detrimental to life than being single….......I mean…..c’mon, is being single that terrible?

cheating isn’t something that only happens in marriage. Many people in commited relationships don’t believe in marriage, so acting like if you aren’t married you don’t understand that commitment is a little off the wall.

And I never said cheaters aren’t humans. Those are some crazy words to be putting in my mouth. Glad you know more about my opinions than I do. I actually stated several times that I think cheating can be forgivable, just never deserved, which is what this post is really about.

ThRive
wrote on May 17 2009 @ 12:25 am: [report]

Jumping back a few posts to the issue of whether some couples practice “don’t ask don’t tell”—PinkRanger, you might believe it’s ridiculous, but I don’t think it’s rare.  I think this is where the age of the couple comes into play.  Whereas when you’re 25, if the relationship isn’t working, people simply move on.  If you’re 45, now you’ve got kids in school, investments, real estate, worries about disrupting established successful careers, and so on.  If there’s a cold war at home and the cheater finds a warm heart on the road, the person staying home will likely, develop a good sense that something is going on, but still may not want to know.  Both parties may value the *stability* of the marriage, even if they no longer value their relationship in the marriage as much as they should, and once did.  Let’s also not forget that often the person staying home does feel guilty about what they know is their own contribution to the problems in the relationship, and therefore they may not put up as much fuss as outsiders would expect them to.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 17 2009 @ 12:33 am: [report]

@thrive: all couples are different and I don’t doubt that it works for some people, but it seems farfetched that most couples would be ok with it. but you are right, I’m not in that stage of life and can’t be certain how I would feel in that situation, although I doubt I would be able to ignore it. I just felt like that original post sounded a bit sexist as though men can have reason to have a mistress, but women don’t. I just feel like cheating is still never “deserved”. I feel the word “deserved” has undertones of revenge to it.

thanks for actually making a constructive comment and a decent argument! *not that he/she is the only one on this thread, there are obviously a lot of intelligent people discussing this, but the personal attacks being flung are just stupid and pointless*

ThRive
wrote on May 17 2009 @ 12:01 pm: [report]

@PinkRanger:  Yeah, I agree.  “Deserved” does imply exactly that—revenge.  Regarding the possible sexist view of the original post, I would point out that the stereotypical presumption is that men are more likely to be the cheaters.  While you can never get a final answer about it because people don’t want to admit the truth,  studies in recent years have tended to suggest that the percentage of married cheaters are nearly the same between men and women.  Probably the reason for the stereotype failing to square with reality is that women are less likely to tell their friends if they are the ones doing the cheating, while men are less likely to tell their friends if they have been cheated on.  Gotta love the male ego.
Some people think that there is more cheating going on now than ever, but I doubt that.  I think people are just more willing to talk about it than they once were.  Evidence for that comes from the fact that elderly people answering study questions now give different answers about what they did in their own youth than people in their generation gave years ago.  The older generations now tend to say they messed around in similar numbers to what younger people admit to these days.  Translation, there used to be a lot more fibbing.

aroundtheblock
wrote on May 17 2009 @ 03:29 pm: [report]

PinkRanger, I agree to some extent about your point that “cheating,” i.e., deception, is possible in nonmarital “committed relationships”  However, the problem is that it isn’t really clear what the “commitment” is in most of those relationships.  To stick around till somethin better comes along or you get tired of the person? Like Oneguy said, the eight year delay in getting married is because he wasn’t sure he could make a commitment, i.e., there was no real commitment. It’s a let’s see how it goes day-by-day. I think most “committed relationships” are inherently deceptive, in the nature of a phony or counterfeit marriage—- marital-like sexual relationships but with no real commitment. In the old days, they were called “shack-ups” and were illegal.

Little Lamb
wrote on May 17 2009 @ 05:09 pm: [report]

@aroundtheblock-
A common talk to define the relationship is “Are you sleeping with anyone else?  Me either. Wanna keep it that way?”  That in itself should be reason enough to believe that one defining boundary in even a bf/gf commitment-style relationship is no extracurricular sexual activities.

And while there are more than a handful relationships out there where it’s basis is convenience, I think the majority of people are with someone because they are hoping to find a “life partner” in that person. 

My boyfriend and I actually just got engaged yesterday (WOO
-HOO ME!!!), and it seems silly to say that before yesterday there wasn’t a commitment, or that before we sign our names to legal documents next year that there isn’t a commitment.  Once the intention of “I want to make this work with you” was stated, we were solidly comitted.

PinkRanger
wrote on May 17 2009 @ 08:58 pm: [report]

@Littlelamb: Congrats!!!! Thats so exciting!

safeontheside
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 02:03 pm: [report]

Is cheating ever ok? This question literally asks “is cheating ever permissible?” or “is cheating ever morally justifiable?” If the answer is no, that cheating is not ok, is not permissible, and is not morally justifiable, then the question becomes, “why?” Why is infidelity so “bad?” Is it because we took vows when we got married to not cheat? Is it the mere breaking of the vow that’s so wrong? I would posit that most people’s problems with cheaters is that the act of cheating is harmful, emotionally, spiritually, and perhaps even physiologically, to the spouse that’s cheated on (that is, of course, if they find out). But then, what if the spouse never finds out? It must be then that the “potential” for such harm is what makes the mere act of cheating wrong, immoral, or unjustifiable.

Or perhaps cheating is possibly ok, is sometimes permissible, and is sometimes morally justified. If this is the case, there would be extenuating circumstances making the act justified. Is your spouse beating you and you take solace in the arms of another? Sounds good to me. Your spouse berates you and makes you feel horrible about yourself, but a new lover makes you have a healthy self image? Also sounds good to me. What if your spouse is nice to you, shows appreciation, but is not interested in sex – AT ALL. Is the lack of physical intimacy a good reason to cheat? I think so. This blog entry/article raises the point that the vow of marriage is not only to be faithful by not having sex with others, but to be faithful in other ways, such as “being there” for your spouse emotionally. Don’t spouses have a duty to show affection for one another? And is the lack of such an affection a form of cheating, or at the minimum, a form of marital negligence?

Now, consider this, though: eating, like sex, is an appetite. These are needs that people need to have met if they’re to remain optimally healthy in mind and body. People need to have sex and people need to eat. But somehow, the appetite for sex became monopolized, such that the only outlet of permitted sexual activity is one’s spouse .Yikes. Imagine if the only source of food were one’s spouse. If my wife stopped cooking and hid the food, I’m starve to death. You keep food from someone and they actually die. You wouldn’t blame me then for going to my neighbor and asking for a loaf of bread. But why not? Is it because I never vowed to take bread from my neighbor? Imagine a world where people made such vows though – it’s not too absurd. “I, Mr. Smith, do hereby take my wife’s hand in hunger, and solemnly swear to only eat the food she cooks, to love and cherish her food, and to not covet thy neighbor’s baked goods.” So I go next door after this vow and it’s a crime against humanity? Ridiculous.

People won’t die from being sex starved, but it doesn’t mean they’re not living unhealthy lives. Go a year or two without having sex with your partner, and you’ll see what I mean. To me, asking for sex is akin to asking God for evidence of his existence – it’s worthless unless it’s freely given. It’s that faith component of religion. Same with sex – if I have to ask for it, who cares. I can masturbate if that’s what it comes down to. Partners should want to please one another. Yet somehow, this monopoly on sex has ravaged people’s minds and ideas. “If you cheat, your hearts will be torn asunder! Let man not destroy what God has made as one!” Please. My best guess is that sex is so sacred because of religion. And cheating is so bad because “God commanded against it.” But if there is no God (thank you fellow atheists), what then? Why is cheating bad? Where’s the rule against it now?

I don’t mean that people should just have as much sex with as many people as possible. In a perfect world, husbands and wives would ravish one another the same way that I ravish my lovers; husbands and wives would share honesty with one another to the extend I share with my lovers; but they don’t, because spouses fear losing one another. You can be brutally honest with a stranger because there’s no risk of losing anything of value; but you lie to your spouse to keep what’s most important to you; you lie to control the situation because you don’t trust that they’ll continue loving you the way they always have if they knew that you had unmet sexual needs, or unmet sexual fantasies, or yes, you like to masturbate a lot, or watch porn, or do any number of things that society considers “in poor taste.” Strangers don’t judge; spouses do.

So, I cheat. Yes. But I’ll keep that from my wife, and continue being a good husband and father. I’ll make sure my mind is healthy and strong so that when we come to real adversity, I can be there for my family.

So people, get off your high moral horses. No one’s perfect, and sometimes, under the right circumstances, even an immoral act is entirely justified.

Black Iris
wrote on July 28 2009 @ 07:16 pm: [report]

No, I think Jon Gosselin is a big boy.  He should have stood up to his wife when she insulted him in public.  Kate didn’t deserve to be cheated on, she deserved a guy who cared enough to face conflicts and argue with her.

gloria
wrote on July 30 2009 @ 03:51 pm: [report]

safeontheside,
     
Recently I came across a book that talked about the role of marriage.  In a nutshell, it said that the role of marriage is not to make eachother happy; it’s to make eachother grow.  It stuck with me.

In some twisted way, I believe that you really do want to make your wife happy.  I also believe that you want more than anything to know that she loves you - really loves you - but don’t believe that’s possible. 

I don’t think that the immoral aspect of cheating is solely about the harm (potential or actual) to the spouse.  I think it’s also about the harm (actual) it does to the person who is cheating.  I think that the true trouble with cheating - especally when it is secret - is that it robs two people of the intimacy that is possible in a commited relationship.  Finding out about the infidelity is what kills the trust.  And without trust… not much of a foundation for intimacy.

When someone cheats, I think that’s what they’re looking for.  Intimacy.  Women and men both.  I think the sexual appetite is secondary, or the means to an ends.  You talk about the brutal honesty that’s possible with a lover, but I don’t think it’s brutal honesty.  It’s an attempt to connect with someone, but it’s a connection without substance because you’re giving yourself that out.  You’ve created a world in which you can’t be judged.  You’ve created a world in which you call the shots, and
by doing so, will never actually find the intimacy that you’re looking for.  I imagine it’s like an addiction.  And sooner or later, the pleasant world that you’ve created will end because your wife, on some level, will know.

You say that people lie to a spouse in order to keep what’s most valuable to them.  So what is it that’s most valuable to you?  If you truly believe that her love is conditional and based on what you know to be a lie, what are you afraid to lose?  The ability to control someone else?  The illusion that you’re a good husband?  The pretense that you love your wife?  You have an opportunity to love your wife if you stop trying so damn hard to justify your own existence.  You’re cheating your wife of the chance to truly love you, and you’re cheating yourself of the chance to be loved.  Standing in front of someone, warts and all, asking to be loved - and caring what they say - is probably the hardest thing any of us will ever do.  I think that’s why, on some level, people in general feel so strongly that cheating is wrong.  Even if they’ve done it.  I don’t think it’s just a ‘moral’ thing.  It goes so much deeper than that. 

I appreciate your honesty.  It’s given me a chance to think about the very question that you ask - the why question.  But being honest in front of strangers is easy.  You’re asking the wrong people to tell you what you’re doing is ok.  You already know it’s not.  Can you rationalize what you’re doing.  Sure.  Does that make it right?