Girl Talk: When (Rape) Fantasy Becomes Reality

Frederica Bimble
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:23 am: [report]

You can either report it and watch it “go nowhere” with the legal system or look at what you’ve written and seriously LEARN from it.  EVERYONE has fantasies but to think it a compliment for a man to tell you that you behave like “sexual prey” is a wake-up call and that call says:  “Child, it is time to grow-up.”

Why in the world would setting boundaries - such as having an adult discussion about safe words, etc. be something you’d be ashamed of doing. 
Wow…what in the world are the kids learning nowadays?  Also, what is wrong with calling yourself a feminist?  Do you want to be treated with dignity and respect?  Do you want to believe you will be able to provide for your family by working a job that pays the same as your male colleagues?  Then, honey, you ARE a feminist whether you call yourself that or not.
By the way, “safe words” and boundaries when dealing with anything consider rough and “against one’s will” sexually is indicative of a desire to engage in S&M sex, it has nothing to do with feminism.

I have to say I’m having a hard time extending any sympathy to you.  It is wrong what happened to you but YOU created the situation. No one else.

If you’re not grown up enough to make decisions that will keep you safe in your sexual life, then, should you really be having sex at all?

I wish you happiness and try to learn from your experience and connect with YOUR inner voice.  You are the only one in your head - no one else.

bklyniiite
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:23 am: [report]

I understand the message you are trying to send. Most women want to be the object of a man’s uncontrollable desire. The way you manipulated your boyfriend into your own self destructive behavior and then victimized yourself by his actions says a lot about your character.
I can’t believe you posted that article under your real name.

Frederica Bimble
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:31 am: [report]

Also, the fact that he blames YOU entirely is quite common with quite a few men.  It’s the whole Biblical idea of the female that even though men are the ones with all that testosterone running through their bodies, it is always a woman’s fault when they have sex at all…..They are the innocent victims of a Jezebel who has lead them to fornication….(NOT my words, mind)

I am going to repeat the line “quite a few men” for those who will inevitably end up stepping up to the plate to “argue” the point.  I’m not including mature men who have the ability to perform a self-analysis and take responsibility for THEIR actions. 

From the article, it is doubtful you’d be dating a more mature man anyway so, for that reason alone, the advice holds true for YOU until you learn more self-respect and gain more life experience.

Dmun
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:32 am: [report]

This is going to come off dickheaded but, yes, you really are to blame. No less than he is but you must own up to that—- skip on this “report him” idiocy because you did request and make clear this fetish, with a longtime partner.

You play with fire, you do so responsibly. Edge play must have safewords and very, very good communication. A shame the lesson had to be learned the hard way.

Amelia McDonell-Parry
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:33 am: [report]

I think Anouk is incredibly brave for telling her story, shedding light on how extremely complicated and unsafe the sexual dynamics in a relationship can get without proper communication. Her desire to learn from the experience and share it with others is to be commended.

sharrison
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:34 am: [report]

Wow, the first two comments are pretty harsh. I have to say, I completely empathize with the writer. Rape fantasies are pretty normal, and it’s great that she was able to share this with her boyfriend. It seems like a horrible miscommunication, and a good lesson about being clear with your partner about what’s fantasy and what’s reality. I would never have thought that someone would think it was OK to simulate rape without a safe word or discussing it first, but reading Anouk’s story I totally see how it could happen.

Thanks Anouk, this will make me be more clear with the men in my life. And thanks for being so honest—it’s brave and admirable.

Susannah Breslin
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:37 am: [report]

I just wanted to step in here and concur with Amelia. I’m an editor and contributor here at The Frisky, and I really commend Anouk for writing this thought-provoking, revealing, brave post.

emflow
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:39 am: [report]

Must agree with Amelia.

As for laying all the blame on Anouk: Her boyfriend is also responsible for the lack of communication about boundaries or a safe word. They both screwed up.

Kati-Anne
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:40 am: [report]

Whoa, people are being a bit harsh here. She’s not looking far anyone to tell her it wasn’t her fault, she accepts part of the blame. It takes two people to communicate, so while it was her fantasy to begin with, that doesn’t absolve him of all responsibility when it comes to communication. They both failed to communicate and understand each other. This is a cautionary tale about the dangers of poor communication in relation to s&m, not a call for pity.

whatshesays
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:45 am: [report]

@Kati-Anne- you couldn’t have said it better. Thanks Anouk for sharing your story.

safe word, ladies!

*sam*
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:49 am: [report]

@sharrison: I agree 100% this is a GREAT article, and I commend Anouk for posting this.

To the other commenters out there calling her immature and irresponsible, lighten up a bit. EVERYONE makes mistakes, and yes, even horrible ones like failing to discuss your personal boundaries with a partner. In case you didn’t notice, she wasn’t writing this to garnish a ton of pity, she wrote this as a way to express how she has learned from the situation, and in turn, grown as a person. Great job Anouk, I hope you keep posting more articles!

emflow
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:54 am: [report]

@ bethlynn00
Most rape fantasies aren’t about actually being raped. It’s about the illusion of loosing control, while actually being in a safe, consensual environment. Bottom line, Anouk’s fantasy it’s sick. Rape fantasies are common, the problem was the lack of communication.

Raugiel
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:56 am: [report]

He wasn’t the only naive one. The ‘safe words are for uptight prudes’ notion is bizzare to say the least. Always sub for a pro first, learn the rules, THEN, MAYBE try to introduce it to someone else.

*sam*
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:58 am: [report]

@bethylnoo: Speaking as rape victim (god, I’ve used that term a lot today) AND as someone who enjoys S&M (a lot) it’s not very fair to say that anyone “who think it’s “sexy” are crazy and after you talk to someone who actually has been raped, been held down and violated, you realize how truly unsexy it is!” That’s not true. I’ve been raped, yes. But I still prefer rough dominating sex with my partner. Like Anouk pointed out, there’s a HUGE difference between a simulated rape, and an actual one. The simulated rape gives you control, which is why being tied up, hit, and “forced” is still sexy. What’s not sexy is having those things done to you when you’re helpless to stop it.

LiciMama
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:00 am: [report]

@bethynnoo- while their situation was based on a lack of communication it has nothing to do with being a “sick” person. Calling this young woman crazy does nothing for your argument.

People are entitled to have their fantasies, as long as they are carried out in a safe manner in which all parties come away satisfied. I enjoy s&m with my husband but we know the other persons limits. It is imperative that when aggressive fantasies are shared between a couple that they talk about what makes the other person uncomfortable along with a safe-word Imidately .

I can’t imagine how distressed and lost Anouk felt at that moment.

@Anouk- very brave of you to share with us your experience. I hope that you are able to move on and find a partner that you are able to communicate with more fully.

*sam*
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:03 am: [report]

@bethynoo: Um, I’ve been raped and I still enjoy BDSM, AND I’m not “sick” or “crazy.” Everyone’s entitled to their own opinions, but, yours aren’t very open-minded are they?

Joey Daytona
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:06 am: [report]

There is an expectation gap between ideas and the reality.
It may seem like a good idea to do X, but afterwards dealing w/ the shame and humimilation? You need a real full partnership love w/ good communication to withstand that…
Turn the tables and violate him?

J.D. Bauchery
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:13 am: [report]

I totally agree that this was a case of extremely unfortunate miscommunication and I think it very brave of Anouk to tell her story in a society that is far from understanding when it comes to kink.  I think her story is way more common than people think and it’s important that people see it can happen to anyone.  Communication is a tricky thing and many people think that it will ruin the moment or the fantasy, but this just shows how a quick conversation may save a ton of miscommunication in the end.

As for this, bethlynn00:

“Maybe I am old-fashioned, but if within 3 months you even need to bring up fantasy and role-playing in your relationship to keep it exciting, then your relationship is doomed to begin with.”

Kink has nothing to do with needing to keep sex exciting.  Some people only have kinky sex and have it from day one.  Don’t assume that it is some fatal flaw of their relationship.  Think about how you would feel if someone said that the way you have sex is wrong.

All that said, instead of playing the blame game or calling Anouk a monster for sharing, why not learn from her experience and be sure to make communication a priority… even in the best/longest of relationships.

- JD
http://www.hotmoviesforher.com

tabby
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:15 am: [report]

Hindsight is 20/20, they say. From this we should all learn that 1) every relationship should have a safe word. This can apply to edgy sex play or stopping an argument when it gets too heated, 2) when discussing fantasies, be certain that you have said whether it is one you want to try someday or not, and that you will let your partner know when you want to talk about trying something new.

To Anouk, I am sorry that he violated your trust in that way. But please don’t let him convince you that you are to blame. You are allowed to discuss fantasies without expecting that someone will take action on them without your consent. Could you have done more to stop him? Who knows. Could any rape victim have done something to stop the rapist? Perhaps and perhaps not. You told him “No” and he chose to read your words as something they were not. That choice was on him. He could have and should have at least discussed his intentions before acting on them. He raped you because he wanted to. You did not force, coerce or in any way “make” him do it. Stop blaming yourself and stop letting others blame you.

*sam*
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:20 am: [report]

@bethynoo: I guess I should mention that I have rape fantasies too. To me, they just blend in to our general rough/dominating sex. I suppose that you would probably think we both need therapy if you knew about all of the stuff we’re into, but, that’s OK. you’re entitled to your own opinions. Just please remember, that that’s what they are, opinions.

bklyniiite
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:21 am: [report]

She paid for an expensive hotel room, let him penetrate her on every surface and then writes “I flounced onto the overstuffed bed in my underwear, pouting petulantly.”

“Brave” isn’t exactly the word I would use for writing this piece…rape is a powerplay. when she lost control, she was upset that she couldn’t make her boyfriend feel guilty.

Encouraging her to post this is a way for her to regain her power over him…and if I was Jacob, I’d slap a libel suit on her for defamation of character.
This article doesn’t “shed light on unsafe sexual dynamics”...it sheds light on how dangerous it is not to give Anouk exactly what she wants, even when she doesn’t communicate it.

effing hickster
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:23 am: [report]

I was impressed by Anouk’s decision to post.

Again, “as a guy”, I’d like to stress that I wouldn’t be taken aback in any way whatsoever if a woman wanted to come up with a safe word even before we had sex for the first time.

I’ve never been the truly S&M type, and kinda felt foolish during spanking. Like Anouk describes, there have been some times where I wasn’t really sure if what I was doing was okay, even after she said yes (thankfully, she assured me that yes, it was okay).

I think a safe word from the start would make me feel safer, as well as her.

MarieMacCee
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:24 am: [report]

@bethlynn00
  Just because you don’t share someone’s sexual proclivities doesn’t make them invalid. Also, calling yourself old fashioned and passing judgement on Anouk’s relationship timeline is exactly like calling a girl a slut because she’s had more sexual experience than you-it’s destructive for everyone. Relationships/sexual encounters are all relative and we should encourage other women to express themselves sexually in whatever ways make us comfortable and happy. That’s how you empower women.

  I think that this was an empowering article. Anouk expressed that she made a mistake and learned from it, and that she wasn’t so embarrassed and upset by the resulting sex that she forgot to hold her partner accountable for the emotional aftermath. She recognized that she was part of the cause, and took responsibility for it. And rather than blame the man for something he didn’t intentionally mishandle (the rape fantasy), she judged him based on how he reacted when he had all the information and could behave accordingly. 

  We’re all always learning about ourselves, and how to be ourselves with the men we care about. It’s not going to be a perfect process. But as women, we should encourage each other to explore our desires and interests, and not vilify one of our own when it goes wrong. Instead, we should be proud that we’re all strong enough to not only survive our own mistakes, but hold them up as examples for our fellow women.

LunaLena
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:27 am: [report]

bethlynnoo said: “And it irks me that people are calling this writer brave? What is brave about not knowing how to communicate boundaries with a partner?”

That’s not why they’re calling her brave.  They’re saying she’s brave because she was willing to share her story to warn others not to make the same mistakes she did. It’s like calling a rape victim (or survivor, whatever) brave for speaking out against the rapist: they don’t do it to garner sympathy, they do it to help other people and try to prevent the trauma that happened to them from happening to others.

You say that a rape fantasy is contradictory, but isn’t that the whole point of fantasy?  Making something that isn’t real into reality?  The difference between rape fantasy and real rape is very simple: one is safe, the other isn’t.  The fantasy is safe because you know your partner knows what you want and don’t want, and is willing to respect that.  It’s the difference between watching a movie about giant robots and explosions and actually being in a situation with giant robots and explosions.  In the former, if you don’t like what’s going on, you can just turn it off.  Or, if you’re the director or writer of the movie, you can make things happen another way.  In the latter, you have no power to do that, all you can do is hope like heck that you’ll survive.  That’s why watching a movie is enjoyable, but living in a war zone is not.  Does that make sense?

I Go To 11
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:28 am: [report]

I’ve never understood the appeal of a rape fantasy. Isn’t the real thing horrific enough? S&M is one thing; this just goes too far for my tastes.

That said, if this sort of thing is your bag, communication is absolutely vital. “Safe words are for schoolmarms and humorless girls?” Are you KIDDING me? There’s a reason they’re called “safe” words. Not using one, or at the very least not communicating effectively beforehand, sets you up for disaster, which unfortunately is what’s happened in this case.

LunaLena
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:29 am: [report]

I forgot to add that the reason the writer is brave for speaking out is because, in doing so, she invites condemnation and censure from others (and as you can see from this thread alone, she’s getting plenty of it), but she’s still willing to speak out about it.

LiciMama
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:30 am: [report]

@bethlynn00- The bravery comes from putting her story out there for everyone that has access to the internet to read.

I never doubted the fact that both could benefit from counseling. I merely thought that your words were more of an attack on people enjoying a particular set of fantasies. To each their own in a way.

If the thought that the person had was “crazy” then what does that make the person that has them?

lehcar
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:34 am: [report]

the fact that he was able to continue when you were resisting is a red flag in my opinion. and even the guys i consider to be jerks i doubt would be able to carry that out, even if the girl wanted it.

effing hickster
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:35 am: [report]

I don’t know how big Jacob is, but a good slap would’ve made me think twice. Absolutely no offense intended towards Anouk.

bklyniiite
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 10:38 am: [report]

I wonder if Jacob feels like his privacy was raped so she could get even (and get paid) for posting this.

mollypeck
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:13 am: [report]

I can only commend Anouk for sharing her complicated experience. Eighteen years have passed since I was raped, and I still struggle with when (and if) to share the story with people in my life. Bring it up too early, and it becomes too big a defining feature in how they percieve me; put it off too long, and it becomes the thing I have dreaded bringing up, the thing that, perhaps, half a lifetime later I am still learning to understand. I don’t want to exclude the story from my story, because it did shape who I am; however, I am more often than not alarmed and saddened by how people (especially women) react to it. “What were you wearing?” “Were you drunk?” “Well, you are a very overtly sexual person…” Truth be told, I was riding a bicycle home from the grocery store and stopped to give a stranger directions. When he realized I was a girl, his plan to mug me escalated. I actually consider myself lucky to have been spared the gray area and blame-placin that accompanies acquaintance rape; many friends my age had much worse, much more confusing incidents shape them, without the luxury of law enforcement and rape counselors automatically taking their side. Every person who has been affected by rape is affected differently, and no one can predict how they would react if they were to find themselves in the same situation (although they love to volunteer: “I would have bitten his dick off”... “I would have gouged his eyes out”...), and if you had asked me, who knows what I may have said before it happened. When it did, I decided to keep quiet and not die. It worked for me, and I am a better person for the (admittedly devastating) experience. I still enjoy some role play and some roughness, not because I’m re-living my rape or because I need therapy, but rather because I can separate a criminal act of violence from my consensual sex life. They are not interchangeable, and I admire the author for sharing the confusion and pain that can result when one becomes the other.

mollypeck
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:18 am: [report]

Ugh. There’s a “g” missing in “blame-placing”. Some commenter will surely point out my inabilty to spell as a reason to ridicule my entire post.

LunaLena
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:20 am: [report]

@ bethlynnoo - I’m going to contest two of your points here, starting with the second one, because it’s a shorter answer: this article may be TMI, but there’s actually a lesson here, which is why it’s not merely TMI.  The article is warning people to make sure you discuss boundaries and personal issues before carrying out the fantasy.  It doesn’t have to be a rape fantasy - maybe it’s a fantasy about having a threesome, or pegging your significant other.  Whatever it is, the point of the article is that communication is key so that both partners are safe, satisfied, and healthy, not mortified, upset, and angry, like Anouk and Jacob were.  Anouk probably knew she would get a lot of angry responses, but she still chose to publicize what happened to her.  It’s never easy to open up your personal life to the scrutiny, hostility, and judgment of strangers.  Would you agree that Holocaust or rape survivors are brave for speaking out?  It’s basically the same thing here, albeit on a lesser degree.

Now, for your first point, you’re taking my example way too literally.  Perhaps I should have used a romantic comedy as an example instead of Transformers.  In any case, you’re treating all fantasies as if they’re the same, but they’re not.  Some fantasies are realistically attainable.  Some are not.  If I told you my ultimate fantasy is to go swimming in a giant inflatable pool filled with chocolate syrup, whipped cream, and marshmallows, would you say that I can’t carry it out because it’s “a contradiction to reality”?  If so, why?  If I can dream about it, how is it not a fantasy?  And I’m certainly capable of carrying it out: if I wanted to, I could go out and buy all those things tomorrow.  Does that somehow make it less of a fantasy than your fantasy to eat all you want and not gain weight?

You said that Anouk’s fantasy turned out to be different in reality.  That’s kind of the point of this article: it wasn’t what she expected, but it didn’t have to be that way. With proper communication about safe words, boundaries, and set-up, both Anouk and Jacob could have gotten what they wanted out of the fantasy. 

Lastly, I honestly have no clue what you mean by “the whole point of fantasy is that it is a contradiction to reality, because it has to something that can happen in real life.”  Can you please clarify this, because it makes no sense to me at all.

effing hickster
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:25 am: [report]

@mollypoo: Eh, I’ll let it slide. It’s too hard to be a dick ALL the time.

unbounded
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:35 am: [report]

@bethlynnoo: Actually, nowhere does she say she is questioning whether or not to report him.  She just says that the relationship couldn’t handle the aftermath - and I actually think that is the real point of her article - that no matter what you’re doing, open and honest communication, empathy, and compassion for each other is an absolute must in order for the relationship to flourish.

As for it being confusing, yes, it is confusing to be in a relationship with someone and to be exploring boundaries and kinky sex and then to deal with misunderstandings and mis-communications as they inevitably come up.  She’s not letting herself off the hook here, and I see both of their behavior as being potential deal-breakers in the relationship: her for not stepping up to the plate to establish the boundaries and safe-words that she should have (especially as the one seemingly more experienced in this type of play), and him for not taking responsibility for his own actions after the fact and working with her to try and get past the incident and heal their relationship.

That said, I want to voice my support for her in airing this type of issue - sometimes it can be very difficult to explain to others who haven’t participated in rough or S&M sex exactly how the dynamics work and how muddled things can get when you’re in the middle of it.  I’ve been in her position (although I must say, we’d never even had the type of explicit convo regarding fantasies and that sort of thing) and while I was the one trying to initiate conversations regarding boundaries and safe-words, the fact is that when my partner was not responding to my communication overtures, I should have stopped having sex with him altogether.  But I didn’t, and the dynamic that developed between us was as much my doing as his.  When he inevitably violated my boundaries in several painful and terrible ways, I could blame him and be angry at him, but I had to face the fact that I had failed myself as well - not just in allowing myself to participate in activities when I was uncomfortable with the lack of boundaries and communication but also for staying with someone who clearly lacked the qualities I consider important in a partner.  That, to me, is the true lesson from this article and I applaud the author’s decision to try and communicate this to other people.

We are, ultimately, responsible for ourselves and that is what I take away from the article.

bklyniiite
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:41 am: [report]

Molly…having to perform a sex act under life threatening circumstances is a horribly traumatic experience and I thank you for sharing your story.
The violation you experienced should not be compared to Anouk’s sex game…
Using the word “rape” in any way towards Anouk’s luxury hotel adventure devalues the actual crime.

Only certain types of men can have sex with a crying woman. Anouk has unjustly painted Jacob as one of those guys.

emilybemily
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:52 am: [report]

I fail to see how this failure to communicate came to pass. Not establishing a safe word or boundaries was mistake #1, but doesn’t it boil down to, essentially, a failure to communicate during the act? How on earth, if she was really trying, was this girl unable to get across to this guy that she was not a willing participant in this sex act? I suspect that either she felt guilty and obligated to comply, or he was stubbornly refusing to see that she truly did not want to have sex with him at that moment. Either way she may be guilty of sending mixed signals, but then again, not so long ago, wearing a short skirt was considered “asking” for rape. I have to place more blame on the boyfriend here. No decent man would ever engage in this sort of thing without making sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that his partner was willing.

unbounded
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:54 am: [report]

@bklyniiite: while I agree that what happened to Molly is horrific, I don’t think it’s appropriate to make value judgments on incidents to which you were not a party and people whom you do not know.

MarieMacCee
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 12:54 pm: [report]

@unbounded
hear, hear! I think you expressed wonderfully something that’s very difficult to articulate

@bethlynn00
  I think that if you go back and re-read the posts people have written to you, they haven’t questioned your right to have an opinion, but rather taken offense at the way you expressed it. You have suggested that Anouk participated in “disturbing” activities and for the people who’ve responded, fantasies are a normal and healthy thing. Fantasies can differ from person to person, and you are in no position to determine whose are acceptable and whose aren’t. And for a lot of the posters, domination/rape fantasies are legitimate expressions of their sexuality. At no point in this discussion have I seen someone condone actual rape. No one has said that her boyfriend was totally in the right. We’re all in agreement that rape is a horrible, traumatizing event and that survivors (like myself) encounter a lot of difficulties in the reporting of it.  But, I’d like to point out that at no point in her article does Anouk relate that she is debating turning him in, as you suggest.

She begins the article by saying exactly that she did want something-she did not ask to be raped, but she told her boyfriend that she had a rape fantasy. The moral of her story, as she tells it, is that she didn’t communicate effectively what that fantasy entailed or how to enact it in a safe way. A sad result of that was the sex she described. She was very mature and strong in refusing to entirely blame herself (as many victims do), but also refusing to entirely blame him. He did not go into that situation intending to do something she didn’t want him to. On the contrary, he thought he was doing exactly what she wanted him to do. It was just a very, very unfortunate miscommunication. She was mature enough to consider forgiving him a big mistake, but to change her mind when he blamed her entirely. She knew she wasn’t all to blame.

I take particular exception to your statement that I intimated “validating a “rape” fantasy gone wrong is a way to empower women.” I validate the way she handled it after the fact, and that she wrote it down to tell other people. I think that women talking about our mistakes and our enlightened hindsight is empowering to other women. I think that your commentary has been detrimental to anyone trying to define rape-you’ve tried to make black and white something that can quite often seem very grey. We need to talk about ways to sort through the greyness, not villify the people that can’t always manage it with aplomb. And I hope any young girl reading this article learns that while fantasies are legitimate sexual expressions, she has to take care to protect herself while she explores them. Not that there are right and wrong fantasies, or that only a man can be responsible for how they are carried out. Women can protect themselves and enjoy themselves. That’s empowering.

bklyniiite
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:01 pm: [report]

if Anouk told her boyfriend that she wanted to go skydiving…repeated herself until he stuck her in a plane and pushed her out, would it be his fault if she suddenly realized mid-air that she was afraid of heights?

Sorry…this Carrie Bradshaw wanna-be didn’t like the 4th or 5th time they had sex that day. Using the word Rape…or even alluding that her boyfriend is a rapist is completely offensive. This article isn’t about “awareness” as much as it is a character smear on her boyfriend.

She doesn’t clarify if she cried…they were arguing beforehand. I get the feeling that this article was purely written in an attempt to win that argument and find that deplorable.

fallonthecity
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:03 pm: [report]

The main difference between rape and rape fantasy is the ability to make it stop if you’re not enjoying it anymore.  Maybe this guy was just way too naive about it (and the author absolutely should have communicated her boundaries effectively), but by failing to make absolutely sure she was a willing participant, he took away her ability to make it stop when she didn’t want it… and so I fail to see how it could truly be her fault.

taufmonster
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:18 pm: [report]

True, she should have set up a safe word before the incident.  However, she wasn’t planning on it happening.  It is the responsibility of all parties to make sure a safe word and other such things are set up before participating in ‘dangerous’ behavior, he shouldn’t have acted until that had been done.  As a man, there are things that I’m curious about and have told my fiancee about that I wouldn’t want her to do without explicitly asking.  Fantasy is one thing, action is different.

Moving on though, I don’t see how saying, “This isn’t the rape fantasy that I want, Jacob.  I want you to stop.” wouldn’t have worked.  By specifically addressing the fantasy and his name, it should be have been clear that you were serious.  Yet, I can understand, given the situation, not being able to come up with that sort of thing to say.  I’m sure you were shocked at what was going on.

Furthermore, his blaming was likely out of his own shock, shock at what he had just done.  I’m not saying his reaction is okay.  Perhaps with time and relationship counseling, such a thing could be ‘moved past,’ but if I weren’t sure that otherwise, he would be ‘the one’ I would choose to not have such a thing hang over my head and end the relationship.

There were things that both parties could/should have done, and it’s unfortunate that this has happened, but all in all, I would place more blame in his hands.

bklyniiite
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:25 pm: [report]

He didn’t dog collar/ball gag her…saying something like “I’m not going to be happy after this, it’s not what I wanted”
or even just yelling “Fire!” or clucking like a chicken or crying…but her actions remained in line with the fantasy.

Instead of laying there as a victimized princess so she can say “You had sex with me against my will!” and then package it for product under the thin guise of “After under twelve weeks of dating, I didn’t get raped the way I wanted to in a 4 star hotel so that makes him guilty of being a bad person…”

Sorry, this article really pissed me off.

*sam*
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:25 pm: [report]

@bklyniiite: really? You should just stop now. We get it, you think Anouk is a total slut and a b*tch. Fact of the matter is, you’re taking your opinions and putting them out there as though they’re legitimate facts that everyone else seems to be ignoring. Has it occurred to you WHY not many people have responded to you? Perhaps it has something to do with your overly judgmental attitude. If you want to judge her, fine, that’s your prerogative. I don’t agree, but it’s your right to do so. But seriously, you’re not getting anywhere with your argument when you keep pushing your personal opinions as facts.

loveitlala
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:36 pm: [report]

The fact that this tore apart your relationship is what’s interesting to me.  A misunderstanding is the guilt of both parties.  Both parties should forgive, learn, and move on.  Putting the label of “rape” on the misunderstanding is not accurate.

mollypeck
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:54 pm: [report]

@bklyniiite: Anouk’s rape is no less a rape than my own. If anything, from a recovery/ coping perspective, I would say my experience was probably less horrific, as I did not have to endure the additional skepticism and blame that is faced by those who ate raped by someone known to them.

CrimsonCurls
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 01:58 pm: [report]

I just had to register for this one…

What in the world?

All I can think is, that poor guy! Especially at that moment when it was over and he was informed, that to her, he had in fact raped her. He had raped someone. Talk about messing with someones head. No wonder he got angry! She had just scarred him for life.

“Oh yes, just so you know, I’m into simulated rape and would like to experience it one day.” Thats it, no specifics because she is the epitome of stupid (#2. definition: Tending to make poor decisions or careless mistakes; a foolish person). So one night at a nice place, after fighting on and off, he decides to give her her wish and get them back to where they had been earlier in the day- all over each other. But she, still mad decides to not make it clear that this isn’t what she was talking about. She lets him do it, then holds it against him. She could’ve said, “Ok, you know when I said I wanted rape? This is not the time, I mean it, you need to stop and we will save it for another occassion.” and use some kind of force to get him off.

I just dont get it… He decides to get a little frisky quite possibly to ease the tension and make up, to get things back on track with each other. And do something special that she had talked about at one time. I know my boyfriend of 2 yrs does this if we have had spats, and I go pout like a 3 yr old on the bed because I cant stand him at the moment. He will climb on and give me little “fish kisses”, as we call them, on my neck (we are the farthest from any kind of S&M boundage, whatever etc… always TLC and tenderness, thats just how we are) which that usually always gets me smiling, and then some….

She was mad at him for whatever reason and decided to use this against him. This is the most absurd story I have ever read. She “vitimized” herself here. You should know better than to tell someone to do something so dangerous, without specifics, and then get mad when they do it, especially when the whole “simulated rape” thing involves spontaneity.

She, is an idiot. He, is the victim. 

theattack
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 02:20 pm: [report]

@bklyniiite:
“I wonder if Jacob feels like his privacy was raped so she could get even (and get paid) for posting this.”
Really??? There’s nothing wrong with being interested in his perspective or concerned for the way he feels about this. But why is she not allowed the same respect? If a person makes a mistake and is admitting that, why are they not allowed to talk about it? Why are they not allowed to share the things that they’ve learned from it?
Also, I doubt his name was really Jacob. Names are almost always changed in posts about specific people, if you haven’t noticed. It’s not like “Jacob” has his personal identification on here and we all know about it, so I don’t think it’s a violation of his privacy. Is it a violation of my boyfriend’s privacy if I post a comment about how we like to do a particular sexual thing together? Is it a violation of Chicken Parm’s privacy when Amelia wrote about going on dates with him?

I agree that it would be horrifying to be Jacob in this situation too - to try and fulfill someone’s fantasy and then later realize she didn’t view it that way. But she definitely didn’t trick him into doing it. And what would she benefit from it if she had? She wouldn’t have. That argument doesn’t even make any sense.
She’s just trying to bring her mistake into the light to help other women. What’s so wrong with telling other women so they can help govern their lives the way they want - and yes, so that the men in their lives aren’t in that awkward situation either.

LaRosa
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 02:31 pm: [report]

@ Anouk… you are very brave to tell us all about what can happen when lack of communication effects sexual activity. This is probably the most extreme example that I have ever heard. Thank you for your story, and I am sorry for what happened.

I hope everyone sees the lesson in this.

There is no need to complicate the issue with personal opinion.

theattack
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 02:48 pm: [report]

And Anouk, I thank you for sharing this difficult experience with us, and I’m sorry that not everyone is understanding of it. I wouldn’t have ever thought of this happening, so I know that I’ll definitely be conscious of the way I communicate about these sorts of things from now on too. Your sharing is definitely going to help others.

toyen
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 03:29 pm: [report]

Wow, I don’t really know what to say about this one. The writer had shared rape fantasies with her partner for a month and a half and never had the “dreaded” safe word conversation or discussed her boundaries with her boyfriend. So then, he takes her up on her fantasy. I guess the gray area is, how much did this couple talk about acting upon this fantasy? Did they discuss how the scenario would play out? How intimate was the communication? It doesn’t seem like it would be a rape fantasy if you tell the “perpetrator” when and where to do it and don’t give up control. But, I personally am creeped out by such a fetish, so I have no idea how it would be executed. 

Any way you slice it, I think therapy couldn’t hurt.

unbounded
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 03:40 pm: [report]

@bethlynnoo: You said it exactly!  Re: S&M relationships “the ones that work best are those were things are very clearly defined and if they are not it is no longer an S&M situation, it becomes something different.”  Thank you, I rest my case.

Please explain how a “rape” fantasy is a separate entity than S&M, though, as opposed to a subset of a wide range of behavior and activities.

Also, if you think there are no gray areas in the law, you are sadly mistaken.  For example, in the area of sexual assault and rape, one element that is generally present is “lack of consent.”  I really, really hope you see how proving or disproving this element in the context of an actual situation could be difficult - can one withdraw consent after initially consenting?  If one consents to a certain level of sexual activity does that mean one then consents to EVERY level of sexual activity?  Can one person think that their partner consented and be mistaken?  Can consent be nonverbal? 

Or, do you just think that all date-or-acquaintance rape is bs?

Ok, I’m done.  This is just too frustrating.

majicksand
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 03:50 pm: [report]

The thought of fantasizing about being raped makes my skin crawl.  I don’t mean to sound judgemental about anyone else’s preferences, but that’s definitely not for me.  Having been sexually assaulted, I simply cannot equate any version of rape with pleasure, with or without ‘safe’ words.  Thankfully, I am only in control of my own sex life, so everyone else is free to choose their own way regardless of how I feel about it.

This entire situation was an unfortunate misunderstanding.  I can completely understand why both partied are upset.

pragmatryst
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 04:35 pm: [report]

@unbounded: “Ok, I’m done.  This is just too frustrating.”

Yeah, unfortunately comment boards don’t come equipped with safe words when things get out of hand.

LunaLena
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 04:39 pm: [report]

@ bethlynn00 - huh?  I copied and pasted that text from your previous post.  But whatever.

For anyone interested in women’s sexual fantasies, I high recommend Nancy Friday’s book, My Secret Garden: Women’s Sexual Fantasies.  I read it a few years ago and found it to be a very fascinating study of what women fantasize about.

writergirl
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 04:40 pm: [report]

Here’s the thing…was he responding to her suggestion of having a fantasy of being raped, or was he letting the emotions of the evening—they had been arguing—guide his actions?  He may have justified it by saying, “you asked for it” but was fulfilling her fantasy his primary motive?  Or was he, indeed, mad and decided to exact his revenge?

And my other question is—if she didn’t bring up the conversation regarding safe words and the like, why didn’t he? Why did he just decide to go for it?  Because he felt as if he was given “permission” based on their previous concersations? C’mon….none of the information regarding this topic is unknown.  We *all* know how to play the game, even if we never play it.  Sheer idiocy led to this situation.  I feel bad for both of them, but I would seriously question him further if given the chance.  Something’s not right there….

SummertimeFirefly
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 04:44 pm: [report]

I’m with bklyniiite…

This whole article and a lot of these responses are sooo problematic.

The whole situation is incredibly blurry and yes…they are both to blame. Both Anouk and Jacob are victims (of each other) and perpetrators. First off, sharing these kind of taboo fantasies with a new lover is fine…as long as the communication comes full circle. For her to express her interest in rape play without continuing the conversation onward to the preconditions for it (SAFE WORD) was extremely irresponsible. Yes, Jacob should not have assumed he knew what she wanted -  but he definitely does not sound like a monster. He sounds like a good guy trying to fulfill his girlfriend’s sexual fantasies. And I think his anger is justified. In a way he was “duped” into becoming a real rapist, when that did not seem to be his intent at all. Anouk is also justified in her feelings, but she needs to understand that her feelings on the matter are not the only thing going on here…that the pair of them made this really complicated.

Coddling her to play the victim is no better than victim blaming.  As empowered women we need to be sure that before we share these types of fantasies or perhaps suggest risky sexual behavior, the we really understand what that means. Personally, I think it is extremely unfair to men to say “no means no” out of one side of our mouthes while saying “no means yes” out of the other.  If I were a man I would be really confused. Until we as women can get our story straight we will continue to have #&@$% up situations like this…and that saddens and frustrates me. While men should carry the burden from preventing sexual assault, when I woman decided to play with fire (like in this instance where rape was discussed as something she desired, not that her skirt was too short) she need to make she she protects herself from getting burned.

She is brave to have shared this story, but not because she has been victimized, but because she and her boyfriend made a big mistake that we can all learn from.

unbounded
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 04:52 pm: [report]

@pragmatryst: oh, but safe words are so boring and unnecessary…wait a second…dang it now I’m all sorts of confused. *slinks away shamefacedly*

druse
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 05:13 pm: [report]

Hmm let’s see if we have this-
You -
You told your boyfriend you were interested in enacting a rape role-play
You never set boundaries or code-words
You went with him to the hotel room, got on the bed in your undies
When he initiated sex you protested, then lay still and quiet on the bed like a rape victim
You never tried to tell him you were not in the role
After it’s over you whisper to him it wasn’t “fun”
Now you want him to own responsibility for the disaster

Him -
He hears you say “I want to do a rape sex role play”
He gets emails, love notes, sexting, whatever, leading him to believe this fantasy is your heart’s desire
He sees you on the bed, half undressed, acting pouty
He climbs on you and gets in the game
He sees / hears / feels you playing as a rape victim would
His first clue you are not in the game is afterwards, when he’s flush with emotions and excitement from what was probably a great sexual, emotional, experience and has his ego shattered by your stunning revelation

And now you blame HIM?  WHAT were you THINKING?
Here’s a clue: men can’t read your mind.  You can’t expect anyone to know what’s in your head unless you succeed in verbalizing.  If you are going to get into something as potentially dangerous as rape-play, you better learn to communicate, set boundaries, rules, and code-words real fast.  You started this game, you own it.
Grow up and take responsibility for your own (in)actions.
You have no one to blame but yourself for this mess. 
And maybe buy this poor, shattered guy a few hundred hours of therapy.  And you might think about getting some yourself to see why you would set up a self-destructive event like this.

bumbler
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 05:18 pm: [report]

Ok First, this is not my kink so anyone who has it can correct me if I’m wrong but I think I should clear something up here that is being misinterpreted.  The term rape fantasy can be very misleading for this particular fantasy.  Perhaps a more appropriate term would be ravishment fantasy for most women.  I would bet good money on the fact that most women do not want to fearful, violent experience of an actual rape based on power.  From what I’ve heard the actual fantasy is to put aside the feelings of guilt that many women have in regards to sexual abandon and at the same time have a man find them so sexually irresistible that they cannot resist.  The fantasy is about sexual abandon and heightened desire not violence and power.

bumbler
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 05:31 pm: [report]

have all the trolls from the Tucker Maxx board gotten bored jerking each other off on their own territory?

bumbler
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 05:53 pm: [report]

Yes, you’ve found me out.  I’m a super smart, genetically engineered wombat who has managed to learn how to type and navigate the internet.  Well played, sir.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 05:59 pm: [report]

Okies, heres me out. Yous all bitches. Hickster, you a total bey-otch! and this new moodymint aint good nuf to suck on prez bushs balls. lolz!

belongsomewhere
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 06:02 pm: [report]

I agree with Amelia and the others who are supporting Anouk—this is a brave and honest article. In response to those who are calling her out as to blame, it seems to me that from reading the article it is clear that Anouk knows what mistakes she made and is writing this to 1) deal with that and 2) let others know how easily things can be misunderstood.

LaRosa
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 06:06 pm: [report]

@SummertimeFirefly…. that was a long comment that was definitely worth reading. I agree, and I appreciate the fact that that you wrote without bias.

Molly Jean
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 06:11 pm: [report]

Wow.  This is disturbing on SO MANY different levels.  I’m going to be honest here.  On 1 hand I HATE this piece.  As someone who is passionate about ending violence against women I find it disgusting that a violent act occurred that could have been prevented/avoided/etc.  On the other hand, I am a reasonable person & a realist.  I understand the importance of this kind of work in shedding light on such fantasies & situations in an attempt to understand them & prevent them from happening.  But God.  This was hard to read.

VX967
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 07:49 pm: [report]

WinterGirl: one cannot assume that everyone is as sexually sophisticated as yourself.  It does seem the these are two inexperienced people (in role playing).  They entered into the “game” without understanding the law of “unintended consequences”. 
  Because she never brought up the ground rules he; had no foreknowledge.  The real lesson is to communicate and practice prior to play!  It is unfortunate that her words were as an accusation toward him when in the light both were responsible for the act and the lack of communication.

gillianinoz
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 09:24 pm: [report]

I am so sorry about what happened to you. Please don’t listen to the insensitive #&@$% who are responding to your post. While a woman must always be personally responsible for her own safety - she must also be able to trust those closest to her in intimate situations.
Your mistake was trusting this man - but that is it. You should not blame yourself because he didn’t know how to control himself.
I wish you all the best - I hope you have better luck in those you bestow your trust upon in future.

lilliest
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:16 pm: [report]

This is a very interesting discussion. Bklyniiite, Federica et al that blame the raped person, some thought experiments to test the range of your assertions:

-  Would you feel the same way if she had a death fantasy and he killed her?

-  What if she had a murder fantasy and he murdered someone? What if she picked out the victim, egged him on, supplied a weapon?

- What about a theft fantasy and he stole a car for her?

- What about a tax fraud fantasy and he defrauded the IRS? What about if she laid out the forms in front of him and handed him a pen?

- What about an abduction fantasy?

- What about a 40,000,000 zucchinis blocking 5th ave fantasy? What if she even arranged for a supermarket wholesaler to supply the zucchini?

- What if Madoff’s wife had Ponzi scheme fantasies?

Would you meet the perpetrator with the same approval if he committed any of these potentially fantasized about crimes? In all these cases above, a reasonable person would hold Jacob responsible for his actions. In rape, the Bklyniiites of the world (BOTW) reduce his duty not to commit crime because he is turned on.  Yet, if had committed any of the other crimes while turned on, we wouldn’t care. Bklyniiite reveals an archaic assumption about men’s lack of culpability for their actions while aroused. An assumption that Jacob must share …

Clearly, our partners have no obligation or duty to fulfill our fantasies, particularly if those fantasies constitute a crime unto themselves. In fact our partners have a legal and moral duty to NOT participate in fantasies that constitute crime, or harm to anyone. Nothing about how much one partner begs another to commit a crime, creates conditions in which the crime could be committed or gazes longingly into the eyes of the partner reduces the obligation of that partner to not to commit a crime.

In short, it does not matter what what Anouk did or didn’t do. Her partner should not have committed a crime of any type, be it rape, abduction,  or Zucchini obstruction.

It’s true that pressing charges will probably not help Anouk here. The reason this will not survive in court is because the defendant (Jacob) would insist on a jury who would find the issue of consent confusing, just like he did. That doesn’t mean she wasn’t raped. It just that rape law is insufficient to adequately deal with the scope of rape circumstances; there is no per se (illegal just by happening) rape law after 18 years old. NY features particularly Victorian era rape laws.

In fact, if Jacob had a rape fantasy, vocalized it and carried it out on a non-consenting Anouk, few would doubt her having been raped. Some commenters here confuse her vocalizing a fantasy for consent. It’s not.

Jacob committed a crime as long as Anouk didn’t consent in the moment.  It is true that men bear an EXTRA burden to be CERTAIN they are having consensual sex all the time. This is because the male gender is the perpetrator of something like 98.5% of all rape. Also, since men generally have 100% of the physical control during a rape (almost by definition), they also have 100% of the duty to exercise self-control. Does this make carrying out a rape fantasy difficult to impossible? Yes. Was the burden still on Jacob to be sure he wasn’t actually raping? Yes. 

We would not excuse Jacob from any other crime because Anouk requested him to commit it. So #&@$% Jacob. Why? Because he still knowingly, intentionally, and maybe negligently, committed one of the worst crimes available to humans. She didn’t turn him into a rapist anymore than she would have into a murderer if he had killed someone after she asked him to. He has discretion over his own behavior and a duty to all of us to not commit crime.

Also, a libel suit is unlikely to succeed against her unless he can prove she is lying and this blog post has cost him money.

draymond
wrote on September 23 2009 @ 11:24 pm: [report]

Of course he is going to deny that it was his falult, even a little, because that would mean that he was a rapist something with both legal and self image issues.

To say that you had significant experience with role-play and rough sex and had not learned the necessity of a safe word is shocking.  On the level of responsibility it is like having a one night stand with a complete stranger without a condom.

But I am not letting him off of the hook entirely.  HE should have insisted on a safe word too.  Like birth control, safe fantasy play is both partner’s responsibility.  Legally I would have recommended the request for a rape fantasy to be on record too.

herenow
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 12:13 am: [report]

I had to create an account just to reply to this…I’m a woman who also has (and has acted out with a trusted partner) rape fantasies. You were raped. It was NOT your fault.

It could have been avoided for many reasons. My biggest issue with your article is the amount of time you knew your BF before bringing up your most personal fantasies. A month and a half is no time at all. Most women I talk to tell me they know whether or not they love their partners within the first few months of dating them, and I think a good portion of ‘character surprises’ could be avoided if people had just spent more time getting to know each other. Trust means knowing the person your involved with- and knowledge of a person only comes about after much shared time together. You need to see how they act, who they are over time. If you think you ‘know’ someone before you’ve known them for 6 months, chances are you don’t.

Your BF may not have realized you were actually saying no because he’s inexperienced, because he’s not tuned into sublte or overt emotional cues, because he doesn’t know you well enough- any number of reasons. I know another woman who was raped by her BF, and tried to convey her extreme discomfort only by going catatonic. He didn’t get it. This makes him a lot of things, a bad lover sure, but not nessesarily malicious. I’m sure you were panicking, trying to not act like a rape victim fearing it would play into the situation, but as I’m sure you now know, direct communication is the most important thing, especially when it comes to sexual fantasies. ‘Jacob, this is not part of my fantasy. Your really raping me. This is not what we talked about, do you understand?’ might have gotten the point across. Hopefully you won’t be in another situation where the issue of your consent is murky for your partner, but if you are, say outright that what is happening is rape, that you are not consenting, that its not a fantasy, that if he doesn’t stop you will be pressing charges.

And safewords aren’t there because people are uptight, its got nothing to do with feminism, situations like yours are exactly why they exist (imo, ‘safeword’ is the best safeword, as it can never be confused for anything else).

This is not your fault, but obviously people will tell you it is :( People will tell you that someone with rape fantasies cannot be raped, that expressing these fantasies to anyone is asking them to rape you. None of this is true, but its something to keep in mind when dealing with people. This is how some people think, and maybe how some of your future potential partners think. All the more reason to use time as a tool to judge someones character.

Stay strong and stay safe hun.

CJ1432
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 01:30 am: [report]

Wow…I think alot of women have had dreamed about being dominated….and coming from somebody that has been date raped, you did not ask for this….was this a miscommunication that went terribly wrong?  maybe…BUT what get’s me the most is that he seemed to automatically blame you.

CJ1432
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 01:51 am: [report]

And who gives a s**t if it was motel 6 or the Drake??  That should not matter, or the fact that it that she didn’t fight back, I think survivors who have been thru this realize that sometimes your to damn shocked to fight back.  You panic, you try to rationalize and survive.  They both made the mistake that they didnt talk about this before hand and it got WAY out of control…..but seriously, this is a bit more out there than Rhett grabing Scarlette and taking her up the stairs.

ChocoBoo
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 03:54 am: [report]

While some of the language Anouk used to describe the night in question (“I flounced onto the overstuffed bed in my underwear, pouting petulantly”) and her association of ‘safe words’with “humorless girls who’d read too much Third Wave feminism” creep me out> I still thinks it’s horrible that she had to learn such a hard lesson.
@folks like bklyniiite, bethylnnoo and crimsoncurls: damn! like to judge,much?  do u guys work for ‘jacob’s’ defense team or something?
Yes, Anouk botched this situation by not being clear about what she wanted, but any guy who can still perform a sexual act while a girl lies staring up at him in fright? Dude needs to get called on that sh*t pronto! Therapy for Anouk, Jacob and some of the folks on this page.

mom
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 05:35 am: [report]

LOLZ.  She asked for it and you know it.  Good for him!

majicksand
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 08:13 am: [report]

How did this conversation get so complicated?  Anouk admits that she didn’t take proper precautions ahead of time and that Jacob is a “relatively naive partner”.  It was a special occasion, they were both sexually charged, and the arguing beforehand probably made him think this was a perfect time to enact her fantasy.  Jacob was confused and made a bad decision.  Anouk had introduced the fantasy and set the stage. 

“From there, the content of our emails, texts and video chats became decidedly faux-rapey, as I told him how I wanted him to hold me down, force my legs apart and screw me even as I begged him to stop.”

Both of them played a role in the unfortunate events that followed.  Anouk takes responsibility for her part in the article.  Jacob (according to the article) did not take responsibility in the moment, but most likely has since or will once he is able to view the situation more objectively.  He may never admit it to anyone but himself, but I’m sure Anouk wouldn’t have been dating him if he were completely clueless.  His initial reaction was understandable from a nice guy who thought he was doing what his partner wanted then gets informed he just committed what many consider the worst possible crime.  I’m sure he was mortified, confused, and potentially concerned about getting in legal trouble.  He probably thought he had misjudged Anouk and that she was some crazy chick looking to have him arrested.  He defended himself out of fear.  His first thought was most likely, “oh crap, did I save those emails?  I’m gonna need those if she tries to have me arrested.”

His response may not have been thoughtful or sensitive but understandable.  On the flip-side, so was hers.  This was a horrible case of miscommunication.  Nothing more.

bklyniiite
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 08:20 am: [report]

You can go to the pet store and get the most behaved, sweetest dog.
If you repeatedly encourage it to bite you, you are the one who created that energy and taught the dog to treat you like that.
The FIRST sentence of this piece is “gentle & loving” to describe her boyfriend.

Midas begged for the golden touch and killed his family.
She begged to lose power over your body.
“Be careful what you wish for” is a cliche’.

I wonder if the fantasy was about a power struggle or whether or not you just needed to demonize the guy.

I’d have some sympathy if the article didn’t sound like vindictive brat using the guise of “proper communication” to devise a smear campaign on a guy she couldn’t take her Daddy issues out on.

Again, I’m not usually so harsh…but this article hit a particularly raw nerve.

*sam*
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:18 am: [report]

@bklyniiite: are you EVER going to stop? how many more bloody “examples” are you going to use to vilify Anouk? You’re trolling pretty hard here, and it’s annoying.

Oh, and FWIW, it only “sound[s] like [a] vindictive brat using the guise of ‘proper communication’ to devise a smear campaign on a guy she couldn’t take her Daddy issues out on” (yeah, because you obviously don’t have your OWN issues you’re trying to work out here, do you?) because you’ve turned it into that with your own personal bias and judgments. You haven’t even TRIED to look at this objectively. As a matter of fact, you sound like you’re “Jacob’s” new gf and are trying your best to vindicate him from his “crazy bitch” of an ex. Seriously, you need to STFU now.

bklyniiite
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:39 am: [report]

Posting an article like this on the internet under the writer’s real name opens her up to every gross aspect of criticism that the web offers.
If she doesn’t like the implications, she won’t be able to un-google her name from it two decades from now…just like she can’t undo what happened in that hotel.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:46 am: [report]

I’m still undecided if this was written as fiction or not. It’s well known that the Frisky writes articles to get a rise out of us commenters, so why should this be any different?

bklyniiite
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 09:58 am: [report]

I rarely post here..if this was an assumed name, kudos to The Frisky for getting under my skin. Seems like Anouk doesn’t exist outside of references to this article in Google…
so score one for frisky site promotion through controversy?

99girl
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 11:16 am: [report]

I don’t understand a few things here. It wouldn’t have been that hard to get across the idea that she didn’t want the fantasy to happen right then. It didn’t even seem like she tried other than to just lay there. ??
I mean, I can’t imagine that one plans a rape fantasy. That’s part of the excitement, right? Not knowing when? So things should have been planned out as far as HOW to go about it and yes ... the ‘dreaded’ safe words. How was he to know when is and is not a good time if he had no direction? Of course he could have asked for details, too, before he did anything, during the course of their previous discussions.
And I am sure he was mortified at what happened, and so he lashed out. That’s irresponsible and immature. He was probably appalled at the idea that she thought he was a rapist after he thought he was only fulfilling her wishes. Especially since she DIDNT SAY ANYTHING. But he should have tried to discuss it instead of blindly assigning blame.
She admits blame, but in my opinion, not enough. It still comes across as too woe-is-me, for someone who initiated it, knew about safe words yet chose NOT to use them (how can someone who does something that needs safe words be lame, to use her words?) and didn’t really speak up when the act was occurring?
And why, if she brought up this ‘new’ idea to him, didnt she lay out all the groundwork at that time? It’s pretty important stuff to discuss.
They were both very wrong, but in different ways.

jackofhearts
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 11:17 am: [report]

@CheeeeEEEEse (no I can’t be bothered to count the e’s)

Wow. I wasn’t even going to bother posting on this because everything has been said in a million different metaphors and faux-legal language and then you step in with those three lines that totally change the direction and get me thinking on a whole new area…

Interesting to see whether your comment will shut down the debate - people seem to get far less worked up about hypothetical situations, probably because being truly objective is far less fun than just picking a side.

Lisa Wu
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 12:08 pm: [report]

It’s unfortunate that this situation of satisfying fantasies previously discussed victimized both parties involved.

Some how it seems you assumed that “arguing intermittently”, “strange vibe”,  “I flounced (in my underwear)”, “pouting petulantly”, that a man can pick up the nuance of your desire not to have sex.

I don’t believe you clearly communicated to him before or during that this is not want you wanted.
That does not mean that I don’t believe that when this fantasy started becoming a reality for you, that you truly had a change of heart and changed your mind. Some guys can pick up on that and some cannot. I don’t believe he was trying to rape or hurt you. I do believe he was he was simulate the rape, and his conviction in his words backs up his actions. No person wants to feel that they’ve victimized a person they’re in a relationship with.

I think it was the right thing for you guys to break up since you both were unable to communicate before, during, and especially afterwards.

I think it’s awesome that you shared this story. It’s great for self reflection and for others to learn from. But it’s painfully obvious that there is some maturing that needs to happen in both the selection of partners and how you communicate with them.

Remember friskies, when sharing a fantasy that you’re unsure of, make sure to share your concerns. Silence is acceptance.

lareinedeslames
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 12:16 pm: [report]

Okay, okay, okay.

People like bklyniiite and crimsoncurls make me sick. All of the people commenting to the extent of “I find it hard to believe that she couldn’t get him to understand…” seem to overlook the fact that 1) struggles, as Anouk mentioned, would have been consistent with the “fantasy” she had described. She attempted a bit of reverse psychology by lying there, unresponsive to indicate that she was NOT enjoying herself and 2) that a naive partner like the one Anouk had wouldn’t really understand what was really going on.

As a victim of sexual assault AND as someone who has had non-consensual fantasies, there is a VERY big difference between simulated rape and real rape; in a simulated rape, there are conditions set forth beforehand. I don’t absolve Anouk from blame, and she isn’t even attempting to absolve herself from blame; she accepts her portion of responsibility gracefully, I think. The fact that he was emotionally insensitive enough not to realize that her lack of responsiveness was an indicator of disinterest, and that he didn’t want to accept even partial blame in the situation… well, some people aren’t as selective of their partners as they should be.

Judgmental attitudes like those espoused by bklyniiite and crimsoncurls are disgusting.

amylou
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 12:42 pm: [report]

i think both are to blame. i feel as though that guy wanted to act out the rape fantasy as well, but didn’t take into account when she wanted it. it’s a FANTASY, for chrissake. i also think she should’ve spoken up and said “look, i do want to act out this rape fantasy, but not right now. this isn’t the right time for me.”

i play the same game with my boyfriend all the time, and we both love it. sometimes if i’m getting really into it, he’ll pause and ask if what he’s doing is still ok. i’ll laugh and tell him yes, and then we go right back into it.

people just need to learn how to communicate better.  thanks for telling your story, anouk!

GudrunBrangwen
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 01:52 pm: [report]

A lot of people have commented on how brave it was to post an article like this, and I want to agree.  A lot of people love to blame rape victims and be judgmental about kinks they think are weird. This was well written and insightful.

Re: the great safeword debate.  Of course no one should assume safewords are lame or unnecessary, but you weren’t doing that, just putting off the needed safewords/boundaries talk until you felt ready.  It’s perfectly reasonable to take some time easing into a kink or role-play that tests your limits.  There’s no need to rush into it right away, when you’re having fun talking and e-mailing about it.  My boyfriend (of 5 months) and I have talked about all kinds of freaky sex stuff that we haven’t gotten around to doing yet, because we don’t actually want to do it right away. 

In retrospect, I suppose it would have been good to emphasize to your boyfriend that you’d never want to play out this rape fantasy without discussing it first.  But talking and setting limits wasn’t 100% your job.  You raised the topic, he was into it, and you both enjoyed talking about it together.  Would you feel less guilty if he had brought up the rape fantasy and you had responded enthusiastically?  It’s really the same situation—a mutual fantasy for which he’s partly responsible.

If he was in a hurry to play out the rape fantasy right away, it was up to him to start the conversation and respect your boundaries.  “I didn’t know, I thought you were into it” isn’t an excuse, since you obviously weren’t.

draymond
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 04:57 pm: [report]

Give up on the expectation of an admission of responsibility in any way.  No guy is ever going to say “oh, I’m so terribly sorry and ashamed, I guess I did rape you” because he would be signing a confession for a long jail sentence and a lifetime on the Megan’s law database.  Even if he thought that you wouldn’t go to the cops with it, that is still a lot of blackmail power to have in a relationship.

And the big time lesson for guys is NEVER try to live out your own or a girlfriend’s fantasies of anything that might be considered a sexual crime…not just rape but also sexual assault or lewd conduct, without a safe word and ideally even a written or audio recording of her acknowledging it.  I know that would be spoiling the spontaniety of the moment, but I’m not talking about doing it at the moment.  A safe word has no experation date.  It can be set up weeks or years beforehand.

MissSpider
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 08:25 pm: [report]

Worst mis-communication… ever :(

Amelia McDonell-Parry
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 08:28 pm: [report]

@CheeeeEEEEse I can assure you that we never ever ever ever write or publish first person essays as fiction and, for that matter, if we did post anything fictional on the site, it would be labeled as such. As Anouk’s friend and editor, having encouraged her to write about this for the site, I can assure you and everyone else that this story is absolutely factual (whether you believe her perception is “true” or not is another issue).

Jenbug
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 08:36 pm: [report]

Bottom line, even though it was her fantasy he should not have acted on it until she gave him the okay. To anyone who blames her for this -just stop it.

@bklyniiite- you really piss me off.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on September 24 2009 @ 08:39 pm: [report]

@Amelia: Clarification accepted.

ollieisapollie
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 09:14 am: [report]

these responses make me sick.  the guy was absolutely idiotic for not clearly discussing with her what she wanted before doing what he did, even though he wasn’t trying to hurt her.  to tell her that this is her fault is perpetuating the culture of rape in this country that blames the victim.  bravo for telling your story.

_jsw_
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 04:57 pm: [report]

Wow, I don’t know how I missed this one.

First, yes, it was brave to write the article, because it really was a no-win situation once it was published. Also, it was very unfortunate that it played out as it did. I feel bad for everyone involved.

I understand Anouk’s position that she was raped. She was forced to have sex without her consent. I’d call that rape. So would most people. I don’t see any real way to argue that she was not raped, and I feel very sorry that it happened under any circumstance.

However, in this case, under these circumstances, I do not consider Jacob to be a rapist. He was relatively inexperienced. He’d been told over and over about a rape fantasy. He likely wasn’t experienced enough to know about safe words. He saw the events of that night as the setup for the fantasy, and they’d already had sex. Anouk did nothing to stop him (as far as I can tell) beyond what she’d told him she’d do as part of the fantasy. I would normally agree that women should do what they feel is safest when they are being raped - lay still, fight back, scream, act like they enjoy it… anything to get out of the situation. In this case, though, she was with her boyfriend and someone with whom she had been consensually sexual already that night. I don’t blame Anouk for not saying the right thing or doing more - she was being raped and reacting to that - but I cannot in good conscious call the boyfriend a rapist because he was doing exactly what he thought and had been told she wanted as a fantasy in a setup that was exactly what he thought would be the proper situation, and Anouk didn’t say or do anything beyond what she’d told him she’d say or do.

Yes, had she said “This is not my fantasy and I do not want to do this now,” he probably would have stopped. But I can’t blame her for not thinking of that then. She was being raped. Nor can I blame him for not stopping when he thought he was doing what he was supposed to do. She’d spent weeks telling him this was exactly what she wanted.

The only real issue was miscommunication, and that was very unfortunate.

The anger afterwards, which seemed like a lack of compassion, was probably anger stemming from hurt. Anouk seems to imply that she feels that she should accept some responsibility, but I would argue that she should accept most responsibility. If she continuously told Jacob that it wasn’t “all” his fault, I can see why he’d feel increasingly hurt. Presumably - and we can only go by what’s written - he was doing what he thought he’d been asked to do, and then he was being held accountable for the majority of the blame. Anouk literally had asked for it, then, after doing what he thought he’d been asked to do, he was told he had raped her for real.

I was once in a relationship where I thought some things were consensual only to find out later that some of the times were only because she “thought it was something she was supposed to do.” The irony is that, had I known it was being done just for me, I’d never have wanted to do anything at all. Finding out that I couldn’t trust her to be honest with me like that led to the end of the relationship. I was very angry and hurt over that. If I’d been told I’d raped her after a time I thought she’d wanted sex? I would have been utterly devastated, particularly if afterward she had implied that it was mostly my fault when everything I’d been told had led me to believe she had wanted it to happen.

I surely do not blame Anouk. I understand how poor communication led to a horrible event.

But I can very much understand how Jacob would get so angry and stay like that. He was hurt, he felt like he’d done a terrible thing while trying to do a good thing, and he was continuously told he should shoulder most of the blame.

Obviously, there should have been a safe word. But after it had all happened - if it went down as I think it went down - Anouk should have realized that she should accept most of the blame.

I’m a huge proponent of ensuring consent before sex. But, in this case, the facts as I know them force me to conclude that Jacob reasonably felt that he had consent to do what he did and, in fact, had been told to do just what he did.

I don’t think the victim should be blamed, but I’d consider both Anouk and Jacob to be victims, and I consider Anouk to be the one who shoulders the majority of the blame for what happened. And this is the only situation I’ve ever known about where I’d completely agree that someone was raped and yet feel that they were mostly responsible for it.

Overall, though, I just feel horrible that this happened and that a relationship ended over this. Each party surely felt an immense amount of emotional and, in Anouk’s case, physical pain.

Thank you for sharing, Anouk, and I hope lessons have been learned by the readers here so that some good can come out of this.

majicksand
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 05:19 pm: [report]

@jsw:  That’s exactly what I was trying to say in my earlier post.  You did a better job of it.  Thank you.  Also, thank you for voicing a male perspective as I could only speculate.

_jsw_
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 05:36 pm: [report]

@majicksand: I think you said all that I did but in a quarter of the words and more convincingly, but thank you anyway.

majicksand
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 05:56 pm: [report]

@jsw:  Actually, you added a few details that I wish I had, and as for the length of our respective posts, I certainly cannot judge.  Mine tend to go on for days.  Besides, I still say it’s good to have the male perspective.  We ladies try, but I’m not sure we will ever understand the male thought process any better than you guys understand us.  On the rare occasions our opinions match, I believe it’s a sign we may be on the right track.

titsmagee
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 06:54 pm: [report]

Jesus Christ. I know a lot of comments have already been made but one more can’t hurt. You are not wrong for having a rape fantasy or wanting to share that experience with your SERIOUS BOYFRIEND. Thank you for posting. Like Amelia said, this article sheds light on the fact that misunderstandings and insecurities about sexual fantasies can lead to disaster. Unfortunately we live in a society that shushes talk of anything sexual.

Also, @bklyniiite, I’m sure I’m not the only one thinking this. #&@$% you.

_jsw_
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 07:09 pm: [report]

@titsmagee: Thank you for reminding me of a point I somehow forgot to mention, even though I used every conceivable combination of English words.

I see no issue at all with rape fantasies acted out between trusting partners. Obviously, there are protocols and such, but role-playing is role-playing as long as all parties agree to the rules.

titsmagee
wrote on September 25 2009 @ 08:13 pm: [report]

@_jsw_ Thanks! I think @bumbler had mentioned how many people’s “rape fantasies” are more like “ravishment fantasies” which I think is very true. I don’t like to think that my boyfriend is raping me, but I do like that he sometimes holds me down and takes control so I can see the appeal. I don’t think anyone should judge someone else’s sexual fantasies or fetishes (unless they are hurting someone else).

InternGal
wrote on September 26 2009 @ 12:01 am: [report]

I liked reading the article. It was interesting but I just didn’t feel sympathetic nor any more “aware” about rape after reading it.

Just that three months isn’t long enough to understand someone enough to have unspoken communication about initiating fantasy play. I took it as more of a warning on lapsed judgment regarding communication more than anything else.

PinkRanger
wrote on September 27 2009 @ 11:22 am: [report]

This horse has been beaten to death…..but….

Ok, let’s just say he is completely blameless. That he was doing all of this for her, that he truly just wanted to blow her mind. Anouk accepts that she messed up, she does. She acknowledges that she went about this wrong, didn’t communicate properly, maybe she wasn’t even sure what she wanted. Does that mean that she “deserves” this horrible experience? Even if we are freeing Jacob from any blame whatsoever, and Anouk completely messed up, does that really mean tht her punishment should be a completely terrifying and violent experience?

I just can’t believe the lack of compassion in some of these posters….....this may haunt her for the rest of her life, and you seem pleased *Let me also say Anouk, this doesn’t have to haunt you! It is possible to heal, don’t let anyone tell you, you are broken or scarred forever, nothing has been stolen from you, nobody has that power*.

Perhaps if this story had been reversed and maybe Jacob had revealed an s&m fantasy to Anouk, and she had jumped the gun and become rough, or even violent in bed without clarifying safe words or boundaries, you would have felt differently. I can see the comments now…“poor guy, what a crazy bitch”.

robf
wrote on September 27 2009 @ 03:38 pm: [report]

You know, this story is exactly, 100% why I have NEVER entertained the idea of participating in a “rape fantasy”.  Way too much room for something to go horribly wrong.  That’s terrifying.

Well, that and the fact that I don’t find anything about rape, regardless of role-playing scenario, to be sexually exciting AT ALL.

_jsw_
wrote on September 27 2009 @ 07:56 pm: [report]

@PinkRanger: I agree that compassion is called for, and I in no way was trying to sound as though I were condemning her (I don’t; I feel sorry that this happened to her, and I wish that it hadn’t). My sole point, really, was that what happened was more due to her actions than to his (not her “fault” at all, not a blame thing, just assigning responsibility for the misunderstanding), and therefore telling him afterward that it wasn’t “all” his fault implied it was mostly his fault, which is likely what led to his continued anger (as a manifestation of his hurt and latent guilt).

What happened wasn’t a punishment - it was a miscommunication. It was a rape in that she was forced to have sex against her will, and that is terrible. He wasn’t a rapist because he had legitimate reasons for believing this was exactly what she wanted him to do. This was a very sad and painful event, and lessons were hopefully learned, and my reaction wasn’t intended in any way to suggest she deserved it. She didn’t. I was merely trying to defend his actions and express my opinion as to why he remained angry after the event.

GreyWolf
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 06:00 am: [report]

First, I do have sympathy for the poster.  Regardless of her naiveté (perceived or real), she suffered a traumatic, humiliating event.  She deserves and needs support to deal with this.

I do have 2 comments - the first being that the right time to discuss any limitations or parameters of the fantasy is when it was first brought up… even if it was simply something like “I’ve thought about this, and someday I might like to talk about how we could REALLY do it.”  Making it clear that it wasn’t just a spring it on me sort of thing.

The second is that as a man, I’ve had relationships where my partner wanted a rape fantasy.  I can’t do it.  I cannot bring myself to impose myself on a woman like that, even knowing that she is a willing participant and enjoying it.  I don’t think I’m actually that unusual in that it is one of the areas of fantasy that I just can’t venture into.  I’m a protector of women/children/weaker people, whether through nature or by socialisation, but it’s deeply ingrained in me.  I cannot, even in fantasy, assume an aggressor/assailant role.  And I suspect there are more men that feel this way than most women might think.

PinkRanger
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 09:10 am: [report]

@jsw: I wasn’t referring to your comments in particular, more to some of the harsher and downright misogynistic comments that have popped up. The sentiment is much appreciated though

_jsw_
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 10:24 am: [report]

@GreyWolf: Agreed, on all points. I can be dominant, to a point, but a rape fantasy is one I could not fulfill, because it would turn me off completely and disturb me. I don’t mind that there are women who want this, but I couldn’t fulfill it, and I agree that most men could not.

@PinkRanger: Thanks. I’m glad we’re clear.

ashleye
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 12:28 pm: [report]

I know I am very late for this conversation, but I just had to write something. I want to commend her for writing this. Yes she did make a mistake but the mistake wasn’t having her fantasy. We all agree that she should have a safe word but she also says that “IF and When” she decides to go through with this she will talk to him about it. She wasn’t even sure if she actually wanted it to happen so when it actually came to fruition she was taken by surprise. I mean of course she was…it’s a little ridiculous to put all of the blame on her. I am very into BDSM and my boyfriend knows this. But he has never just came after me the way it appears in this story. I think it’s great that she shared her fantasy with someone and for him to act the way he did with her fantasy was not right by any means.

For the people who don’t understand that when you have a rape fantasy or are in bondage that the sub yes is in fact in control. They have the ability to say STOP at any moment in time. I have had rape fantasies and it’s all about losing that control but having the ability to say NO at any time. So putting the blame on someone for not communicating is correct but the fact that she says she was going to talk to him about it when she was ready is another issue. They had not talked about it and why put the communication issue all on her. He could have stepped up just as much as she and asked her what she wanted out of it and what he expected out of it as well.

remembercedricdiggory
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 04:32 pm: [report]

@GreyWolf: I have the exact same relationship situation that you have had, exact I’m the one with the “rape fantasy” and my partner is the one who refuses. It’s reassuring at least, but I do rather wish we could engage in power play.

GreyWolf
wrote on September 28 2009 @ 04:53 pm: [report]

@remembercedricdiggory:  best I ever managed for her was a short fantasy I wrote for her one time involving a stalker/rape situation.  She enjoyed it and thought it would be fun, but knew I wouldn’t.  And I must say that it was a tough thing even to write since I couldn’t really imagine myself doing it.

*sam*
wrote on September 29 2009 @ 09:30 pm: [report]

@greywolf & _jsw_: IDK if this helps at all, but, my SO overcomes those issues by, first, before we “begin,” he kisses me and reminds me that he loves me more than anything, and then if it gets a little rougher or meaner than usual, he’ll usually stop for a second just to make sure I’m OK, and always asks again at the end, to make sure I know it was just fantasy play. I know all of this beforehand, but, I think he does it more to reassure himself rather than me. Actually, now that I think about it, I do the same things to him when I’m being the dominant one b/c I need to reassure myself that he knows I’m not serious and that I don’t want to hurt him…

Though, if BDSM just isn’t your thing, then I can only assume that a partner that is *really* into it, probably wouldn’t be right for you, and there’s *nothing* wrong with that.

Shriekback68
wrote on September 30 2009 @ 02:03 am: [report]

“Ravishment fantasy”: great description of what this really is about. As for Jacob, regardless of what blame he shares in all this, the guy acted like a total dick to his girlfriend afterwards. She was upset…so he gets mad at her?? Dick-style move, dude.

GreyWolf
wrote on September 30 2009 @ 09:52 am: [report]

@*sam*: Actually I can separate some BDSM from rape, although it’s not my favourite activity.  Spanking, light bondage, even mild D/S (if that’s possible) doesn’t bother me too much. 

I think it’s the fact that violent rape does happen, and is such a violation and so traumatic for the victim that I can’t bring myself to symbolically condone it in a fantasy.  A lot of my inability to deal with that fantasy desire stems from the fact certain parts of me don’t seem to want to function right then, lol.

Jenbug
wrote on September 30 2009 @ 05:14 pm: [report]

@bklyniiite

I read this story a few days ago and I am still pissed. Right to free speech be damned bklyniiite yours should be revoked. I have never been so appalled and angered than I am at your disrespect and lack of compassion. Your comments lead me to believe you are a terrible human being.

SanyuSays
wrote on October 5 2009 @ 03:32 am: [report]

Ok, I’m not sure if anyone even gets down here to read but I’d like to say what I’m thinking anyway.

I think people make a mistake when they say that Anouk is “brave.” Brave is doing what makes you uncomfortable and scared, regardless, because it is called for (in my opinion - didn’t want to bore you with the dictionary definition).

What Anouk is - finally it seems - is, in fact, RESPONSIBLE. Being RESPONSIBLE is owning up to failure (at its worst) and preparing for success (at its best).

She f*cked up, and now she is taking responsibility. Great, but still, the cost was great.

As someone who was raped at the age of 15, and also considers myself lucky to be one of the living fems in that category, I cannot conceive the appeal of “rape” fantasy - particularly for the man.

Which brings me to another point. Anouk’s looking down her nose at “feminists.” Because, in fact, I also don’t like the word “feminist.” NOT because of what it defines, but instead because people feel it requires its own category when it’s JUST COMMON SENSE. Meaning, I’m a homo sapien sapien, who happens to have a vagina and considers myself equal to homo sapien sapiens who do not have a vagina (or just a vagina). There is nothing extraordinary about this opinion. It is, in fact, completely normal.

But this is Anouk’s problem: WORDS. Communication.

And this is a terrible problem because language is the first creation that homo sapien sapiens EVER made.

Yet, still, almost 300,000 years later (or whatever the exact number) we find our species STILL HAS NOT MASTERED THE ART.

In some odd twist on Science Fiction, it is as if language/words/communication are the incredibly smart AI machines that have bested hu(man)kind.

The following is a pity, and while it is RESPONSIBLE for Anouk to finally begin to understand herself by learning how to communicate, such a failure is NOT an ideal “I made stupid decisions and got raped” cautionary tale.

1. That Anouk thought she was above communication about safety regarding sex because somehow that’s “unappealingly” “feminist.”

2. That Anouk played into her fears about not talking about her safety in an intimate relationship (decidedly UNbrave).

3. That Anouk still played into her fears when the rape “fantasy” went wrong by not saying something like, “Hey, we haven’t discussed boundaries and I’m not comfortable with this RAPE FANTASY.” (Or something along those lines)

4. (Presumably) That Anouk is OUTSOURCING her relationship problem to US WHEN SHE SHOULD BE TELLING THIS - OR AT LEAST EMAILING IT - to Jacob (who is clearly the most affected by her immaturity, aside from herself).

The thing is, in a situation like this, which I must confess I find idiotic because it was so unnecessary and PREVENTABLE, it’s really a shame that the 2 people involved couldn’t reconcile by TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY SHOULD HAVE TALKED ABOUT THESE THINGS.

Additionally, from a “feminists” point of view, I can’t help but wonder if wo(men) are turned on by rape “fantasies” because of hundreds of thousands of years of conditioning as victims or weaklings or objects (as a “class” of people).

It’s like “reclaiming” the words “f*g” or “n*gger” - Something I ABSOLUTELY do not believe in.

Because if there’s one thing that’s obvious here, it’s the POWER OF WORDS. Say what you will, but don’t pretend it isn’t effecting (or affecting…whatevs) you.

A last point.

I must confess I find the idea of a man who is into a rape “fantasy” horrifying. It makes my skin crawl to even think about it. Because honestly, /what kind of people/ even dream that upon another person…

———
I have other opinions at http://www.sanyusays.blogspot.com (in case you’re un/interested)

GreyWolf
wrote on October 5 2009 @ 05:10 am: [report]

@SanyuSays:  I am truly sorry that you were raped at 15.  The pain and trauma still shows in your writing.  And I cannot in any way disagree with your feelings.  But Anouk is a different woman, and her reactions are not yours.  And hers are much more immediate, not having had the time to reflect on them and integrate them in the fashion you have.

So while I can’t argue with your feelings, I have to say that I think your judgement of Anouk is somewhat harsh, and, IMO, largely undeserved.

@9Times:  I find it hard to understand your dislike of women who are raped because they “asked for it” by dressing provocatively, or drinking, or flirting with guys.  Rape is not about sex.  It is about control and domination.  And no matter what these women do, there is nothing in their actions that suggests they have relinquished control over their own bodies.  The real truth is that the man in that situation has lost control of himself.  It’s an incredible lose-lose situation, with the woman coming out by far the biggest loser.

ChocoBoo
wrote on October 5 2009 @ 06:14 am: [report]

@9Times: I’m just gonna assume that you also have some poor female drugged and handcuffed to the stove in your apartment right now, because after all> all women are sluts and their place is in the kitchen, serving the likes of YOU,right?

What penitentiary are you writing from, you knuckle-dragger?!

SouthOC
wrote on October 5 2009 @ 03:18 pm: [report]

Wow… I’ve read a lot of you comment that this post is “really brave.”

To me it’s “really dangerous.”  Maybe I’m missing something, but as the father of 4 daughters, I want them to be with men who will treat them with kindness and respect.

I think the talk about rape fantasy gives the nut balls out there who are on the brink of doing something stupid an excuse to go for it.

DCGirl
wrote on October 14 2009 @ 04:16 pm: [report]

@lehcar

You said “the fact that he was able to continue when you were resisting is a red flag in my opinion. and even the guys i consider to be jerks i doubt would be able to carry that out, even if the girl wanted it. “

She didn’t resist - she even said in the article that she didn’t say no. She said she didn’t fight back and just let him continue.

No means no.. but she didn’t say no. he was doing what she asked.. no, they didn’t set ground rules ahead of time, but again, she didn’t communicate to him that he would need to.

I’m not condemning her. I have this fantasy too, and every now and then my husband and I play it out… but the first time I decided to tell him I was interested, I didn’t give him little snippets like she did. I laid it out.. this is why it interests me, this is what makes me nervous about it, and here’s what I’d say if it got out of control or I didn’t want to.

I can see why the guy is defensive. She’s blaming him for her own lack of communication about how this was all supposed to play out. Once it DOES start to play out, she didn’t even say no.. she just expected him to be a mind reader and understand that since she WASNT fighting back, she wasn’t in to it?

Men aren’t mind readers. I feel badly that this happened, but I think this rests squarely on her.

DCGirl
wrote on October 14 2009 @ 04:18 pm: [report]

@bklyniiite I TOTALLY agree.

lareinedeslames
wrote on October 16 2009 @ 01:55 am: [report]

@DCgirl: “I knew after a few misguided attempts to block him from entering me that he thought what was happening was drastically different from what I knew to be taking place.”

she DID try and make him stop; in fact, her lack of resistance was part of her effort to make him stop, because she realized that struggling would have played into what he thought she would be doing in the fantasy.

It is partially his fault too; I’m not saying that she doesn’t have ANY blame, but on his side, he should have clarified, and when she did resist, and then completely just lie there, he should have taken her cues.

On top of it, to make her feel like #&@$% for an error that they both made, and make her assume the entire blame, is kind of jerk-ish of him.

In the future, it might be better to read the article completely before you judge the events in it.

DCGirl
wrote on October 16 2009 @ 07:57 am: [report]

@lare - I did read the whole thing. She tried to make him stop, in her mind, yes. She hoped he would pick up on her clues. Men aren’t mind readers though. She admitted that she never actually TOLD him to stop. That would have been something she could have tried.

As far as him clarifying, this is again, where it gets sticky. In his mind, he DID clarify. She told him she was interested in this, and they texted and emailed about this often. When they were in the hotel, she trounced around in skimp clothing. How was he supposed to know that he needed to clarify just one more time? Again, he didn’t, because he’s not a mind reader.

I’m not saying he didn’t act like a jerk afterward, he did, and I can only imagine it was because he felt defensive after being told that what he did was wrong, after being told over and over that it was what she wanted. Does it make it right that he acted like a jerk? No.

My husband and I do this kind of thing from time to time, and I can’t imagine sending him texts, emails, etc teasing him about it, and then saying - Hey, let’s go to a hotel. I’m SURE if I did that, he would get the assumption that I wanted to role play like that.

The difference, and I think someone mentioned this in an earlier response, is that she should have set up ground rules, or set up the fact that there would HAVE to be ground rules. For example, in one of her emails.. if she said something like “I can’t wait for you to x,y,z me at some point…we’ll have to discuss a safe word or some ground rules.”

That one extra line would have been the signal to him that he needed to clarify before engaging in anything. Since she didn’t say that line, he would have no idea that he NEEDED to clarify anything.

I’m not saying she’s a bad person; this whole thing is just real unfortunate.

lareinedeslames
wrote on October 17 2009 @ 01:42 am: [report]

@DCG: But, as I quoted, it DOES say in the article that she made attempts to block him from entering her. It’s not like she just laid there the entire time.

Again, I’m not saying that she doesn’t have any blame in this situation. What I’m saying is that he compounded his initial mistake in judgment (ie: not taking the initiative to GET the details of her fantasy), by pushing the blame on her and acting like a jerk.

If her fantasy had been, say… being blindfolded and fed, and he didn’t check with her beforehand and fed her something she was allergic to without knowing (mild allergy, not anaphylaxis), it would be a similar situation; obviously not as serious, but he WOULD have been responsible in the sense that he didn’t check that what he was feeding her was okay.

In your original post, you put ALL the blame on her. “Men aren’t mind readers. I feel badly that this happened, but I think this rests squarely on her.” No one is saying that men are supposed to read minds; I’m just pointing out that he got heated, made errors in judgment, and then became a jerk afterward. She made an error in judgment in not being specific about the circumstances.

They were both equally to blame, and he (and several of the commentators here) tried to shift all the blame on her. I feel bad that this happened to her at all. I think she’s very brave to take all the crap that people are giving her for her honesty.

megabaer
wrote on October 18 2009 @ 11:18 am: [report]

I’ve had play rape fantasies that I’ve acted out with many girlfriends.  What he did was not acceptable.  In all relationships with these women, we had respect for each other.  We always planned to start the scenario with changing our clothes into a new outfit, to set the mood, some music, and maybe some setting to make the mood happen.  It was never a surprise.  I hope that this experience didn’t ruin it for you to have a safe relationship with safe and planned scenarios.  These scenarios should turn you on and make you enjoy sex.  I hope that he understands the weight and seriousness of his actions.  I wish that he could be help accountable.

willparadigm
wrote on November 12 2009 @ 02:30 pm: [report]

The blame lies entirely with the man in this situation.  For him to have taken the control without affording her a decision in the matter is the DEFINITION of rape.  If he’s unable to realize that, then he’s a twisted moron with no redeeming characteristics.  All he had to do is go on the internet and do a search for any kind of role play and find out what a safe word is and give her one. D-UH!!!  Did she make a mistake? Yes.  Was it a mistake that deserved rape as a consequence? NO!  One note to “Bethlynnoo”, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, no one is entitled to their own facts.  Quit spouting B.S. like it’s reality.

dangitaaron
wrote on November 14 2009 @ 09:40 am: [report]

When the author says “I didn’t blame him entirely for what happened” sounds a lot to me like “it’s only, oh, 90% his fault.”

Both should share responsibility equally.

I’m also curious as to what the author’s boyfriend would say if he was to post about what happened. We have to remind ourselves that the entire account was given to us by one party.

willparadigm
wrote on November 14 2009 @ 10:41 am: [report]

The individual with the physically superior power MUST! take responsibility for that power in any situation.  Any failure to do so is a blatant disregard for the rights of others. I personally am not interested in what the bofriend has to say or if this story is even true.  I’m not in a position to do anything about it in any case but the discussion resulting from it may be a useful learning tool for others in the future.  Your statement that “Both should share responsibility equally” makes no sense.  Power wasn’t equal, how can responsibility possibly be?

majicksand
wrote on November 14 2009 @ 03:40 pm: [report]

@willparadigm:  Because she set the stage.

willparadigm
wrote on November 14 2009 @ 03:52 pm: [report]

Set the stage?  What a great excuse for a criminal act.  Think that will work in court?  If she had fought and the act had produced bruises do you really think she wouldn’t have a case against this guy?  She was far too lenient.  Next time you get mugged just remember you “set the stage” by dressing to well and carrying around money.

draymond
wrote on November 14 2009 @ 05:12 pm: [report]

This thread still going?
Once she brought up the possibility that he really had date-raped her there should be zero surprize that he would deny everything any more than if she had accused him of murder.

In hindsight it wasn’t so much that they didn’t have a safe word as they presumed that they had a safe word.  He presumed that she could have thought of something at the time that would work and she presumed that lying mute and still would be seen as a safe word.

Considering how often some folks say ‘if you are gonna get raped just lie back and take it’  the chances of her action being interpreted as surrendering in the fantasy are high.

But was there really nothing she could have said that wouldn’t be interpreted as part of the fantasy? Of course not. I mean, what if in the middle of this rape fantasy she started singing Yankee Doodle Dandy?

Still, both sides were stupid not to have the safe word set beforehand and the scope of the rape fantasy discussed and recorded.

But some of the other posts caused me to think.  Even with a recorded agreement and a specified safe word, could I actualy do a rape fantasy?  I’ve done some stage acting, and if the script included a rape scene I certainly could do it.  But could I do it in a private personal setting?  Not with anyone I ever cared about being with in the future.  To do a rape fantasy (as opposed to a ravishment fantasy) I would have to access a very dark and evil place of my heart and show it to her up close.  The likelyhood that it would forever stain how she saw me would be too high.

willparadigm
wrote on November 14 2009 @ 05:19 pm: [report]

The difference between a rape fantasy and a ravishment fantasy? ... please, You people are all ripe for this same kind of thing to happen in your lives.  You’re all being so dishonest with yourselves it’s not funny.  Draymond - If you have that dark place you spoke of and you haven’t let her know it’s there you don’t have much of a relationship.

LinusK
wrote on November 16 2009 @ 03:58 pm: [report]

“My gentle and loving boyfriend… and I… had been dating about a month and a half when I intimated that I had a rape fantasy… Being dominated and playing the innocent who secretly wasn’t had been my currency… for the past ten years… I was worried I would scare off my relatively naive partner… I told him how I wanted him to hold me down, force my legs apart and screw me even as I begged him to stop…  it got me incredibly hot…

To celebrate Jacob’s birthday, I’d booked us a room in a fancy hotel…  I flounced onto the overstuffed bed in my underwear, pouting petulantly…  after a few misguided attempts to block him from entering me…  I made the decision to lay as mute and motionless as possible… 

I lay there, shaken. When I finally sat up, I whispered to Jacob that what happened wasn’t what he thought happened…”

What’s strange is so many of the comments assume Anouk is suffering from her rape.  Her own words are “the incident itself wasn’t what had upset me as much as his single-minded belief that I and I alone was responsible for the f**k-up.”

In other words, it wasn’t getting raped; it was losing the argument that pissed her off. 

I don’t know what she expected him to say, by the way.  “Hey, baby, sorry about raping you.  How can I make it up?”  Talk about a total mind-#&@$%.  There’s no way a “gentle”, “loving”, and “naive” man would know how to deal with that. 

The moral here is a kinky rape-me-please woman may be hot, but it’s like playing with fire.

You’ve got to be careful - a trip to jail will really #&@$% up your day.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 13 2010 @ 09:39 am: [report]

I am a marriage,relationship and sexual coach. While I sympathize with your bad experience, I have to say it is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT.  You say that you had a boyfriend who was gentle and loving.  You felt safe enough with him to tell him about your rape fantasy.  Lots of women would love to trade places with you.

Then you say that your continued communication was about the rape fantasy. You were affirming and encouraging him that this is what you wanted.  You stated that you wanted him to proceed in spite of your denials and asking him to stop.  You did not mention in any of the repeated comments about safe words.

You take him out for his birthday and book an expensive room and screw his brains out, and then you throw yourself on the bed in nothing but panties and say to him that you don’t want to have sex with him.
Where was he supposed to get that you did not want him to engage your fantasy?  It says to me, okay she wants me to take her.

You then go on to say that you lay there motionless.  How was he supposed to read your mind and realize that you were not enjoying it.  You could have said matter of factly that you were not enjoying it and for him to please stop.  That would have communicated, not as a damsel in distress who wants the rape to continue but was clear direction from you.  So many women think that if a man loves her, he should be able to read his mind.  Men are not good mind readers, we need clear and unequivocal communication.

I don’t blame your boyfriend for being angry.  You coached him in what you wanted and when he gave it to you, you claim rape for which he could go to jail.  Sex is about trust between two individuals.  He trusted you to communicate clearly and you did not and then you blame him because he did not get it.  I am having trouble understanding where you think that he is at all at fault here.  You gave him repeated affirmation that this fantasy was a turn on for you and then you throw yourself on the bed in nothing but panties and said that you did not want to have sex with him.  If you really did not want to have sex with him, you should have gotten dressed and told him standing up.

I have engaged personally in rape fantasies and have always enjoyed it as my partners have.  I add in ripping her clothes off and ripping her panties off and throw them down on the bed forcefully and have even slapped a few in the face for effect. 

Yes you have learned a valuable lesson, you need to communicate CLEARLY WHAT YOU WANT AND NOT EXPECT A MAN TO READ YOUR MIND. IT IS ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT

titsmagee
wrote on January 13 2010 @ 01:47 pm: [report]

@southernwriter57

Telling her it was entirely her fault? In all caps? You sound like the worst relationship coach ever. Yes, she is partly to blame for the miscommunication, but to say it was all her fault when her boyfriend didn’t approach her about the timing or clarify his obvious confusion about it? That’s harsh and completely inhuman.

Way to be a douche.

_jsw_
wrote on January 13 2010 @ 03:14 pm: [report]

@titsmagee: I agree with southernwriter57. She set him up for what happened, then wondered why he reacted as he did when she accused him.

It’s unfortunate that it happened as it did, but the fault lies solely with her. He did exactly what she told him she wanted him to do, and, I might add, he didn’t do anything that wasn’t fully consensual earlier that evening or throughout their relationship earlier, and, as far as I know, he didn’t harm her. His actions would have been appalling in different circumstances (first date, etc.), but in this one? In this one, he’d been told over and over that this was her fantasy and that she wanted him to do it. She acted exactly as he would have expected her to act when it started. She was fully consensual with him up until that point. She gave what would appear to anyone to be clear signals that she was attempting to start the rape fantasy she’d been telling him about over and over and over. To say the fault rests anywhere but on here shoulders is ridiculous. She is completely to blame for the miscommunication. His confusion wasn’t “obvious” until after it ended and she told him he’d raped her.

It was a complete mind-f**k, and she attempted afterward to assign blame to him - to the person she called “gentle and loving ” and “relatively naïve.”

How on Earth do you assign any blame at all to him?

hlnbabe
wrote on January 13 2010 @ 03:32 pm: [report]

@titsmagee: I have to agree with southerwriter and jsw. I feel like the blame falls entirely on her. However, I’m not her and I wasn’t in the situation so it’s not my decision to stay with the guy.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 13 2010 @ 11:34 pm: [report]

Sorry titsmagee, I told her that I sypathized with her unfortunate circumstance.  If she wanted safewords she had ample opportunity to explain that to the guy. 

He felt a level of guilt and regret with his comment that she had turned him into a monster.  Obviously this was something that he had never done before.

My job as a marriage, relationship and sexual coach is to teach people to take responsibility for our own actions.  There was nothing in her story that indicated that he had done anything wrong.  To agree with her just to make her feel better is not reality.

She just wanted him to take part of the blame so that she did not feel so bad.  Sorry, I won’t let her off the hook.  Again, sex is about trust.  She had already given him a level of trust that he counted on and then she violated that trust by accusing him of actually raping her because he did not read her mind.  Really, you need to re-think your critique of me.

What about how bad this guy felt, that she had violated his trust.  We live in a very sexist society with the women being the most guility of being sexist in today’s society.  Men are constantly painted as bad and women are never to be held accountable for their actions.  You get no apologies from me tits.

lareinedeslames
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 05:52 am: [report]

Sorry, jsw, gonna have to disagree with you here.

I don’t think the blame lies ENTIRELY on anybody. They both had their parts in this nightmare. “relatively naive” does not mean that a person is incapable of knowing when they are doing something wrong. It also does not mean that they are completely and totally unaware of pop culture, which one would have to be to not know about safe words these days.

NEITHER of them took the precautions to insure that the guidelines of “safe, sane and consensual” were followed. I don’t think that the guy should shoulder all of the blame, but I don’t think he should get none, either.

As for Southernwriter, you sound an awful, awful lot like the stupid “therapist” I had as a pre-teen who said that it was partially my fault that I was molested by a family member as a child, because I never told him to stop. Really, all caps? Shouting at someone who already feels bad about a situation that went awry? Who the hell do you think you are?

titsmagee
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 09:12 am: [report]

@lareinedeslames

I agree! The thing that bothered me so much was the all caps—making someone who went through a traumatic experience feel WORSE? So terrible.

_jsw_
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 09:28 am: [report]

@SwordQueen: Well, I suppose we’ll just need to agree to disagree here. If he’d gotten violent, I would agree with you. It seems to me that all he did was what she’d told him to do, and she did nothing at all to indicate verbally that she didn’t want it. Her actions easily fit into a fantasy response, and he likely assumed she was taking it easy on him by not struggling. Asking her if she wanted to role play would have actually violated the role playing she’d been begging him for. She had given consent for this activity.

And while I am a proponent of the prosecution of rapists and the rights of victims, I cannot see this as a “traumatic experience” for her. This is a man she’d been openly sexual with earlier that day and throughout a relationship. He was doing what she knew she’d told him to do. Yes, she had sex when she didn’t want to. But compared to the rapes that friends of mine have experienced - date rapes, not violent assaults in an alley, mind you - this was a non-event.

fallonthecity
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 09:45 am: [report]

We live in a very sexist society with the women being the most guility of being sexist in today’s society.  Men are constantly painted as bad and women are never to be held accountable for their actions.

Oh FFS.

_jsw_
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 09:50 am: [report]

@fallonthecity: Agreed.

I agree with southernwriter57‘s general assessment of the specific situation in the article, but not at all with that generalization.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 11:08 am: [report]

Hey tits and lauerideslames.  You are again talking about feelings.  Feelings alone without facts and logic are always dangerous.

The reason that I used all caps was not to yell at her but to reiterate and snap her back to reaality.  She already admitted that her boyfriend was very gentle loving and very naive.  She had admitted to practicing rough sex in the past with other lovers.  He had obviouosly not ever experienceed the rape fantasy and had not clue about safe words because she did not clue him in.  In fact she told him to continue on and not take no for an answer no matter how much she persisted.

While I am sympathethic that it turned out badly for her and that she felt violated.  On the other hand, When I have persisted in sexual pursuits, I have always understood when a woman told me with an emphatic no and I immediately backed off.  She did not tell him but expected him to read her mind.

I repeat without the caps, she is entirely at fault and really traumatized this gentle and loving man by accusing him of rape after she really did ask for it. 
As to you being a child, the therapists was an idiot, but this was a very sexually experienced woman who had previously engaged in rough sex and admittedly enjoyed it.  She has only herself to blame.  She also stated that she will change the scenario in the future so there was a lesson learned.  I felt like she published as a cautionary tale for everyone to learn from, if you are going to push the envelope, make sure there is a level of trust and use codewords to stop.

I make no apologies, because you misinterpreted my all caps.  I was not trying to scream at her but to bring her back to reality and quit trying to blame an innocent man.  Enough with the man bashing, it is sexist.  I am the first to demand that rapists and sexual offenders be prosecuted and locked up.  The sad thing is that they can’t be fixed and the judicial system lets them out and they go and do it again,

southernwriter57
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 11:17 am: [report]

Hey Fallonthecity:

I have no idea what FFS means, why not have the courage of your convictins to tell me straight.  If you can’t recognize MISANDRY (reverse sexism by women against men) in our society, then you too are guilty.

One additional note, the last thing that she mentioned was that she through herself on the bed petulantly in nothing but panties and told him that she did not want to have sex with him. I again restate, if you don’t want to have sex with a man, you do it while dressed and leaving the room not stripping down again to nothing but panties.  I am still angry for Jacob the real innocent here.

fallonthecity
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 05:02 pm: [report]

@southernwriter57:  It’s a fairly common acronym used across all kinds of message boards on the internet.  It has nothing to do with “courage of [my] convictions,” and a quick Google search would have answered your question.  So, please, don’t blame me for your lack of knowledge.

Go ahead and cry for Jacob if you want to, because the poor naive thing was probably blindsided—but I’ve seen no “MISANDRY” in this situation.  Just extreme stupidity, mostly on the writer’s part, but also on the boyfriend’s.  Face it—they both could have had better sense about this thing.  If you can make a legitimate case that the writer was upset with her boyfriend because she hates men, by all means, we will discuss misandry.  But I’ve seen nothing so far that points to that, other than your mostly-pointless ranting.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 05:50 pm: [report]

Misandry is not just about man hating, it is about the systematic trivializing men, putting them down, making something the man’s fault and blaming him. I have seen a lot of put down critical comments about Jacob whom even the writer acknowledges that he was a gentle, loving and naive and had obviously had a less experienced sex life than the writer and had obviously had never engaged in rough sex before. He clearly was not sophisticated in these matters but that did not keep a number of writers for taking him apart.

As to your acronym of FFS.  It was my first experience with the acronym.  It seems odd to me that you are obviously a very intelligent person, why would you use such an obviously juvenile put down.

As to reverse sexism in society, it is a reality.  The pendumlum has swung the other way.  Maureen Dowd, the infamous NYT columnist went so far to write a story a couple of years ago explaining that the only reason that a woman needs a man is to be a sperm donor.  So please at least acknowledge the problem. To refuse to acknowledge the problem is to make you part of the problem.  Others have said that a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. Sexism is rampant in the family courts where the courts do absolutely nothing to a woman who refuses to give court ordered visitation but will put a man in jail, take away his driver’s license and take collections to garnishee his wages if he does not pay child support.  I could go on but you get the idea.

This writer while I admire her to expose her story as a cautionary tale also wanted a posse of friends to come to her side and side with her against boyfriend.  This is typically the way women fight. I resented her for not fully taking responsibility for her actions and instead tried to put off responsibility on clueless boyfriend.  If I had her in my practice, I would tell her to her face the same thing.

C.Munro
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 05:51 pm: [report]

The thought of fantasizing about being raped makes my skin crawl.  I don’t mean to sound judgemental about anyone else’s preferences, but that’s definitely not for me.

This about sums it up for me. 

I hope that such fantasies are not normal for women.  Were I with a woman who expressed such a fantasy to me, it would spell the end of any kind of sexual relationship between myself and her.  I wouldn’t even want to talk about sex with her. 

I don’t absolve the guy of blame here.  Really, he should have pushed for that conversation about safe words and such before initiating anything like this.  But mostly, I just feel sick to know that there are women out there who fetishize something as thoroughly awful as rape.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 14 2010 @ 09:45 pm: [report]

I can tell you that a rape fantasy is very common for women.  They don’t really want to be brutalized, they just want to be taken by a strong man who forces them into it over their objections.

It requires trust and codewords.  I have personally done it several times with several partners.  You need to be careful about judging other people’s fantasies.

I have never been accused of rape, and it has always gone well with my partners.  If it is not for you then don’t do it.  To break off a relationship with a girl because she voices her fantasy sounds pretty harsh to me.

lareinedeslames
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 06:45 am: [report]

Southernwriter, I don’t believe I misinterpreted your allcaps at all. In fact, the statement that you made in defense of your previous statement does little more than to demonstrate the exact problem.

Assuming that Jacob is completely and totally innocent is not forcing him to accept his part of the responsibility. As I mentioned before: was he living on the moon before he dated the author? Did he really have so little pop culture knowledge that he wouldn’t have realized that things like a safe word were used in these situations? I mean, even Family Guy has made multiple examples.

On top of which, I think some of the commenters are guilty of misrepresenting the article itself:

I knew after a few misguided attempts to block him from entering me that he thought what was happening was drastically different from what I knew to be taking place…  his decision to enact it without any prior dialogue, without my consent, robbed me of the control that would’ve made it a rape fantasy rather than an out-and-out rape.

As the knowledge of what was happening dawned on me and the seconds crawled by, I made the decision to lay as mute and motionless as possible, to drive home the point that it wasn’t, in fact, what I wanted and I wasn’t enjoying what he was doing. I was worried that fighting back would only make him think I was play-acting all the more, and I didn’t feel imperiled enough to try to hurt him in the service of getting him to stop.

So, she DID try and get him to stop, and she laid there motionless because she thought that her attempts to prevent the circumstance were being mis-read.

There are no innocents in a situation like this. I’m not saying Jacob deserves all the blame, or even most of the blame, but he does deserve SOME of the blame.

LunaLena
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 11:07 am: [report]

I hope that such fantasies are not normal for women.  Were I with a woman who expressed such a fantasy to me, it would spell the end of any kind of sexual relationship between myself and her.  I wouldn’t even want to talk about sex with her. 

I recommend reading My Secret Garden: Women’s Sexual Fantasies by Nancy Friday.  Rape fantasies are actually very normal and common for women.

Of course, if you don’t want to participate in such a fantasy, then that’s your choice and so be it, but I wouldn’t dismiss someone because of their sexual fantasies so quickly.  Just as most gamers don’t run around re-enacting GTA IV, most (if not all) women know the difference between a harmless fantasy and a real, brutal crime.

fallonthecity
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 11:43 am: [report]

@southernwriter57: I assure you I didn’t mean my comment as a personal insult, and I don’t see how it was juvenile (other than the slight ridiculousness of using internet-English at all).  I just though it was incredible that you seemed to have found this account sexist in any way not because I don’t believe that men experience forms of sexism, but because I honestly can’t figure out where in the original article you could have interpreted the writer’s account as sexist.  Mostly though, you got a huge eye-roll from me for your assertions that women are the most guilty of perpetuating sexism in our culture.  Look, that’s just not true.  I’m not saying men aren’t ever affected by sexism, because they are.  But are you really so isolated that you actually believe, as you said:

As to reverse sexism in society, it is a reality.  The pendumlum has swung the other way.

The pendulum has swung the other way?  Hey, maybe in your world as a marriage counselor you’ve been lucky enough to not have been witness to the discrimination and sexual intimidation that women still experience, but even in the very short time I’ve been in engineering, I’ve seen and experienced some scary stuff in school and in the industry.  Maureen Dowd does not speak for our general society.  Please don’t discount what women go through because men often struggle in family court and are often portrayed in pop culture as buffoons who only think with their d*cks.  It is all part of the same problem, you know.  It doesn’t have to be—it can’t be—either/or.

This writer while I admire her to expose her story as a cautionary tale also wanted a posse of friends to come to her side and side with her against boyfriend.  This is typically the way women fight.

Stop it.  You’re making broad, offensive generalizations about women while expecting me to worry about men being trivialized?  Please be aware of what you’re saying.

Anyway, having said all that, I still don’t see how the writer gave the impression that she was upset with her boyfriend because of some sexist ideas or because she’s part of some system of male oppression.  I just don’t see it.  And I’d like to point out that she didn’t say that she herself is blameless:

But knowing what I know about my own reticence to set concrete limits, not out of laziness but out of sheer spite for what I’d always thought was a lame, overwrought, touchy-feely set of principles, I can’t assuage myself fully from blame.

In the days and hours and weeks since that night in the hotel room, I fought hard to make Jacob understand that I didn’t blame him entirely for what happened.

Whether or not she should take all the blame is an opinion that will be different in every single commenter here.  But I have to agree with @lareinedeslames here… the guy did not live life in a bubble, and he should have had enough sense to have wanted more information about what was appropriate and when before deciding to enact this fantasy on his own, just as his girlfriend should have had the sense to communicate more clearly what exactly her fantasy was and under what circumstances she wanted it to happen.  I don’t think that his thoughtlessness earns him all or even most of the blame in this situation—but in my opinion it does earn him some.  And I just don’t see how that is sexist.

(Sorry for the text wall…)

C.Munro
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 11:56 am: [report]

... they just want to be taken by a strong man who forces them into it over their objections.

That right there is enough of a dealbreaker for me. 

No. Effing. Way. 

If someone is getting into my pants, there can be no objections.  Not even mixed feelings.  If I hear a hint of “no” or even a word that reminds me of “no,” I am out.  As far as I’m concerned, the words “no,” “stop” and “don’t” are pretty clear safe words.  They mean exactly what the dictionary says they do. 

If women really do have these fantasies, I don’t consider them harmless at all (as this article should make clear), and I suggest they keep such thoughts to themselves.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 01:24 pm: [report]

Hey Larenesdames:

Believe me, the level of sexual ignorance out there is astounding.

The only clear communication was from the wtiter who told Jacob that she had this rape fantasy and that she wanted him to do to her even in spite of her protests to the contrary. She confessed to telling him this numerous times. You seem to forget that after conming back to the hotel she stripped down to nothing but panties, threw herself on the bed petulantly and told him that she did not want to have sex with him.

She admitted that he was naive, how and why would he be epxected to know that there needs to be safe words or code words.  In all of the repeated instances of her telling him that she wanted him to do it to her, why did she not communicate that to him.  She was not just taliing about it in general but had made repeated requests for him to satisfy her fantasy.

It is entirely her fault.

LunaLena
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 01:42 pm: [report]

@C. Munro - okay, in addition to what I said above… I think southernwriter57’s interpretation of the rape fantasy was worded really really badly.  And I also think it’s wrong.  As I understand it (and, as a woman who used to have rape fantasies, this makes complete sense to me), one major reason rape fantasies are common is because women who want sex are often treated/called “sluts.”  In a rape fantasy, women get the pleasure of sex but aren’t responsible for it (since it’s the “rapist”‘s fault), so they’re getting what they want without being slutty.  They get to be the “good girl” and ostensibly protect their virtue, thus having their cake and eating it too.

Another reason is that the woman likes to think that she is just so damned sexy that the man can’t help himself and must do her, even over her objections.  It’s flattering to think that someone is just that eager to get into your pants.

I think you’re having trouble distinguishing between a rape fantasy and real rape, and that’s why the idea of a rape fantasy repels you so much.  Keep in mind that fantasy is not necessarily identical to reality.  That’s actually kind of the point of this article: in order to realize a rape fantasy safely, it takes a trusted partner, lots of discussion, set-up, and most importantly, discussion of safe words and boundaries, which the author didn’t do.

_jsw_
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 01:53 pm: [report]

@fallonthecity:

(Sorry for the text wall…)

One of the things I like most about this site is that, unlike so many similar ones, no one gripes about comment length.

Anyway, I think you make good points, and I agree with them (except for our obvious differences over blame in this specific instance).

@lareinedeslames: Your quoted block is at the heart of my argument that it’s her fault. First, she only claims “a few misguided attempts to block him from entering me”. Given that she’d enthusiastically had sex with him earlier that night, “a few misguided attempts” wouldn’t signal him to stop when he thought he was doing what she wanted. And her “without any prior dialogue, without my consent” comments are laughable. They had plenty of other dialog, and she told him she wanted it to happen. Regardless of your opinion, the use of “safe words” is not necessarily common knowledge. A few years ago, I wouldn’t have known what you meant, and I’m not all that naive. It depends on the subcultures to which you’re exposed. He thought she wanted it, she’d told him she wanted it, she’d enthusiastically had sex with him hours before, she was almost naked and pouty, and she didn’t really try to stop him. Asking in the middle of a rape fantasy “hey, do you want me to continue” seems a bit contradictory. Had she simply tried to tell him that this wasn’t the fantasy she wanted, I strongly suspect he would have stopped immediately. She didn’t. She made some feeble attempts to stop him and then just stayed still. In a real rape? Probably a good idea. In a rape scenario with a boyfriend? Not a good plan.

JACK_W
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 02:40 pm: [report]

He probably thought he had misjudged Anouk and that she was some crazy chick looking to have him arrested.  He defended himself out of fear.  His first thought was most likely, “oh crap, did I save those emails?  I’m gonna need those if she tries to have me arrested.”

Especially when you consider that he’s only known her for three months.

I’m not into this sort of role playing, but I imagine that this would be my immediate reaction as well - that she’d intended to set me up from the start. So it’s not surprising that he’d pulled away from her.

Having some women you barely know tell you that she considers you a rapist, but that she wants to try to work it out, is a very weird and unsettling proposition.

fallonthecity
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 02:58 pm: [report]

@_jsw_: True, nobody seems to mind here.  I’ll not feel too bad when I start getting ramble-y ‘round these parts.

Also, I hadn’t thought about it, but I kind of agree with you here:

Had she simply tried to tell him that this wasn’t the fantasy she wanted, I strongly suspect he would have stopped immediately.

tk_2009
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 04:11 pm: [report]

Way back in college I took a karate/self defense class as an elective. It was taught by this crazy badass 5’2” guy who had seen it all, and he gave some damn good advice about how to stay out of trouble. One of the things he directed at the females in the class was that if the aggressor doesn’t have a weapon, or there isn’t a second person with a weapon, there is no reason not to fight with everything you’ve got. He said that as long as the woman had the strength to fight and was conscious, there is no way she could be raped. So, I think the “lying still” tactic is probably not the best course of action. In any case, _jsw_, I’m with you. If she had taken a second to really get real and said point blank what was going through her head, I have a strong suspicion that things would have come to a screeching halt.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 04:39 pm: [report]

I may have worded it poorly, but we are all coming to the same conclusion, it was entirely her fault.  The problem was she wanted her boyfriend to share the blame saying it was not ENTIRELY HIS FAULT in other words it was mostly his fault.

I stated that she did not say no, but stripped back down to nothing but panties and threw herself on the bed petualantly and stated that she did not want to have sex with him, and then did not tell him to stop when he took her up on her fantasy that he had not asked to engage in, but just fulfilled her fantasy.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 04:40 pm: [report]

I may have worded it poorly, but we are all coming to the same conclusion, it was entirely her fault.  The problem was she wanted her boyfriend to share the blame saying it was not ENTIRELY HIS FAULT in other words it was mostly his fault.

I stated that she did not say no, but stripped back down to nothing but panties and threw herself on the bed petualantly and stated that she did not want to have sex with him, and then did not tell him to stop when he took her up on her fantasy that he had not asked to engage in, but just fulfilled her fantasy.

C.Munro
wrote on January 15 2010 @ 11:29 pm: [report]

@LunaLena:

I think you’re having trouble distinguishing between a rape fantasy and real rape, and that’s why the idea of a rape fantasy repels you so much. 

No, actually, these things: 

... women get the pleasure of sex but aren’t responsible for it (since it’s the “rapist”‘s fault), so they’re getting what they want without being slutty.  They get to be the “good girl” and ostensibly protect their virtue, thus having their cake and eating it too.

Another reason is that the woman likes to think that she is just so damned sexy that the man can’t help himself and must do her, even over her objections.  It’s flattering to think that someone is just that eager to get into your pants.

also repel me. 

For one, I think women should own up to their sexuality.  Not to bend to the idiotic social constructs that have made life miserable for countless generations before us.  This isn’t 1950 anymore, and I expect my own sexual partners to be more grown-up and confident about their desires. 

For another, these kind of fantasies, by their very nature, perpetuate the kind of male behavior that I despise beyond the capacity of any words to convey.  The dimwitted, sweating oaf who “just can’t control himself” is a cur who should be shot in the streets as far as I’m concerned.  There is absolutely no place for him in the modern concept of civilization, especially not the sexual fantasies of women.  This desire in women has allowed that genetic strain to propagate itself, when my own most intense wish is to see it wiped out.

meredith806
wrote on January 16 2010 @ 12:42 am: [report]

C.Munro: After I got out of my abusive relationship a few years ago, I was majorly #&@$% up.  For a while, I had completely sick fantasies, that I won’t go into detail about, but all definitely included me being forced to do things. 

I still like to have the random aggressive (on both sides) rip-off-your-clothes kinda sex.  But it took me a very long time to think clearly, and differentiate between acceptable and unacceptable actions from a man, if that makes sense.  The poor guy I dated afterwards, I truly could not function normally, if he wasn’t forcing something on me, I didn’t know how the hell to react.

Obviously many women just have these sort of fantasies naturally, but just keep in mind, its not always for the same reason. 

FYI:

The dimwitted, sweating oaf who “just can’t control himself” is a cur who should be shot in the streets as far as I’m concerned

100% agree.

C.Munro
wrote on January 16 2010 @ 12:52 am: [report]

I still like to have the random aggressive (on both sides) rip-off-your-clothes kinda sex. 

I do too, as long as it is mutually aggressive. 

Don’t get me wrong, I like sexually aggressive women.  I love it when my partner and I both feel that we can’t keep our hands off each other.  It’s hot, and it makes me feel desirable. 

But it can’t be one-sided.

lareinedeslames
wrote on January 16 2010 @ 06:30 am: [report]

I’m just going to reply in a general fashion, since there are too many people for me to reply to:

Safe words: I can find probably at least 20 pop-culture references to safe words in the past ten years. I’d be more than happy to compile an annotated ‘works cited’ for that, for anyone who doubts that someone who doesn’t know the existence of the concept is living in a bubble.

As for my previous quoted text: misguided does not equal feeble. The two words are different. Misguided means that the attempt at struggling was, in this case, poorly planned, or poorly advised. Which, considering the outcome, definitely applies. She realized that struggling was not going to achieve the result after not only trying to, but also having the thought occur to her that struggling would be in keeping with the “fantasy.”

I think what really bugs me about these comments, deep down where my feelings exist, is that every single one of them that implies that he is completely innocent also implies that she got her “just deserts,” and that she deserves to be victimized for failing to take a simple precaution to insure her safety. I agree that she has some of the blame in this situation, but I canNOT make myself believe that he doesn’t shoulder some of the burden of blame. That’s like saying that a woman who wears a dress and high heels has no right to get offended when a guy tries to grab her or cop a feel up her leg. It’s also like saying—excuse me if this is a bit extreme—that a married woman can’t ever be raped by her husband. Anyone remember that archaic justification?

As for the misandry debate: I don’t believe ANYONE is questioning the existence of misandry; I think that rather the point is whether there is misandry present in this article. I don’t personally believe that there is. The author went to great lengths to explain that her issue was not with men, it was with the man in particular not sharing in his portion of the blame.

I wish we could all just settle on this: the whole encounter was a horrible mistake, it is a good anecdote for teaching the chill’uns, and we need to all move on and hope we are never in EITHER position.

LunaLena
wrote on January 16 2010 @ 08:36 am: [report]

@lareinedeslames - I agree, that’s exactly what I think this story was supposed to be about.

@C. Munro - yeah, it would be nice if all women were that sexually confident and all that, but I don’t think sexual confidence was really encouraged in women until recently.  I just think you’re being too quick to dismiss people because they have or had rape fantasies.  Out of curiosity, how would you feel if a long-term significant other one day asked if you’d be willing to try a little BDSM or role-playing?  Would you find that disturbing as well?

MuchoMacho
wrote on January 16 2010 @ 10:35 am: [report]

ive never participated in this sort of thing, but if my gf asked me to id listen to what she had to say.  it sounds counter intuitive, but the guy in this situation is REALLY making himself vulnerable by agreeing to do it.  she broke faith with him, and if i was in his shoes i would feel extremely betrayed.  sad situation all around.

C.Munro
wrote on January 16 2010 @ 11:31 am: [report]

Out of curiosity, how would you feel if a long-term significant other one day asked if you’d be willing to try a little BDSM or role-playing?  Would you find that disturbing as well?

It would really depend on the specific acts themselves.  I think I’d be OK with it as long as both of us traded off on the dom/sub roles and nothing involved inflicting pain, but it’s definitely not my kind of thing and I’d prefer someone a little more vanilla as a long-term partner. 

For the record, though, I did end a sexual relationship once because the girl I was seeing kept pestering me to do things I wasn’t comfortable with and didn’t find sexy.  I don’t see it as being “her fault,” just an issue of compatibility.

JACK_W
wrote on January 16 2010 @ 11:31 am: [report]

but the guy in this situation is REALLY making himself vulnerable by agreeing to do it

That’s right. To her credit, Anouk seems to recognize that the responsibility for this incident is mutual, and isn’t intending to press charges. But she can change her mind at any time, until the statute of limitations runs out.

The implied solicitation of a sexual assault isn’t a defense.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 17 2010 @ 12:05 pm: [report]

Lerenisnedames:

I thougth that I would let this die, but I can’t because you have misinterpreted my comments.  There was absolutely no inference intended that she deserved her just desserts.  I don’t believe that anyone deserves to get raped.  Your offering as an equivalent that a woman who wears a short dress and high heels doesn’t deserve to get raped or even felt up is not apples to apples.  We all agree that just because a woman dresses provactively does not mean that a guy has a right to molest or rape her.  We are talking about a woman who repeatedly asked a guy to take part in her rape fantasies whom she had been sleeping with consensually and then trying to shift the blame to him.

This is the reverse sexism that I refer to.  She should rightly have taken the responisiblity entirely upon herself.  Had she filed rape charges, I am quite sure that a prosecutor would not have prosecuted, or if he did prosecute, he would not get a conviction.

To prove rape, it has to be proven that he had malice and intent beyond any reasonable doubt.  He indicated shame and remorse by his comment “that you have turned me into a monster”.  He was completely clueless by the writer’s account and yet she wants him to take part of the blame after stripping down to panties and throwing herself on the bed petulantly and stating that she did not want to have sex with him.  In addition to repeatedly asking him to partake in her rape fantasy.

By the way rape fantasies are extremely common with women.  Nancy Friday has 4 different books on Amazon deveoted to women’s rape fantasies.  There are about 7 others by other authors detailing rape fantasies so it is very common.  Quite a few of the romance novels weave rape fantasies into their story line.

lilliest
wrote on January 19 2010 @ 09:08 am: [report]

@southernwriter57

Are you nuts? There is no such conclusion. See my very long post above.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 19 2010 @ 10:16 am: [report]

I stand by my comments.  There was no rape because she did not communicate to him that she did not want the sex. The only thing that she clearly communicated to him was how much she wanted it, and for him to do it in spite of her feigned protests to make the fantasy more realistic.

You are guilty of misandry here, you just refuse to admit to it.

lareinedeslames
wrote on January 19 2010 @ 05:50 pm: [report]

southernwriter: first of all, it would be a nice show of respect if you would at least take the time to spell my handle correctly. I may not write out your entire screen name, but the part I use is correctly written.

And who is guilty of misandry here, exactly? My position from the very beginning is that both parties are responsible, and you have yet to counter any of my arguments with anything but “But you’re wrong,” and a bunch of speculation with no proof.

You haven’t responded to the crux of any of my arguments in any real way.

By the way: saying that throwing herself petulantly on the bed in just her panties was an invitation is very close to saying that the woman who dresses provocatively deserves the negative attention from men. Let’s see if I can break that down more directly:

“She was skimpily dressed and pouted at him when she told him ‘no,’ so how was he supposed to know that she meant it?”

“She was wearing a low-cut dress that showed off most of her legs and eff-me heels, so how can you really blame a guy for trying to cop a feel?”

Anyone else notice the similarity?

southernwriter57
wrote on January 20 2010 @ 11:45 am: [report]

lareinedeslames:
I meant no disprespect for misspelling your handle.  Perhaps you could grant me a litle grace and understanding as your handle is a difficult name to spell and to remember.

You show no grace towards Jacob in your writings.  You demand that he share in the responsibility.  If ever I could say that there was someone so clearly at fault and one who was so clearly innocent, this case would be the model for it.

While the usual norm is that there is blame to share on both sides, there are times when someone is clearly wrong and the other party is clearly innocent.

Your arguments don’t hold up.  I would be the first to say that just because a woman dresses provactively that does not give a guy the license to cop a feel or worse.  A woman is exercising her liberty and is entitled to it.

This case was nothing about that.  This was about an ongoing consensual sexual relationship.  She only clearly articualted that she wanted him to indulge her rape fantasy.  If she wanted code words, then she should have articulatd that in the numerous conversations she had with him.

This guy had clearly never engaged in this fantasy before and had never even heard of it before. She had sex with him all day long in a hotel room that she had rented to celebrate his birthday.  They took a break for dinner and upon returning to the hotel room she stripped down to her panties and threw herself on the bed “petulantly” and told him that she did not want to have sex with him.

For you to argue that just because a woman dresses provactively does not give a man (a stranger)a right to violate her is like making a woman share the blame for her husband or boyfriend beating her becase she made him mad.  Clearly there is blame for both sides according to your argument.  The woman I suppose should share in the blame for her beatings because she knew not to hit his sore points.  If she would just clean up her act then she would not have been hit according to your analogy.

No there is sometimes a situation when clearly a person is entirely at fault and the other person is entirely innocent.  The fact that you refuse to accept that, especially in men women relationships indicates your misandry because clearly men are bad and women are good.  The man should have known better.  Your arguments while passionate do not persuade me or others.  I think that the woman being hit is entirely innocent and the man is entirely at fault in abuse patterns.

lareinedeslames
wrote on January 21 2010 @ 06:03 am: [report]

Southernwriter, I don’t suffer from the delusion that men are bad and women are good. I’ve met a great many women that I have no respect for, and a great many men that I have the utmost respect for. My brother is an example of a good man. My grandfather, my step-father, many of my friends: all good men. I prefer to surround myself with genuinely good people.

If you find my name difficult to spell and remember, perhaps it would do you more service to shorten it. I consider a shortened, correctly spelled version far more respectful than something that doesn’t even look like an attempt to spell it correctly.

The article itself does not state that she stripped into her underwear; in fact, it gives no context for the author being in her underwear when she got into bed. You imply that this woman indulged in a striptease after having intermittent arguments with her boyfriend, which is not borne out in the narrative.

How is my argument that a woman should not accept any responsibility for a rape or molestation when she is dressed provocatively indicate that I feel that a woman should share the blame when she is beaten by a SO? Explain that one to me, please.

Speaking of which, I consulted several men on this issue; many of the aforementioned men who are close to me. All of them thus far have agreed that the guy in the situation is at fault in some small way for not clarifying the fantasy before attempting to engage in it.

What I will say about the hypothetical abuse victim is this: while she shouldn’t “know better than to hit his sore points,” she should know better than to remain in a relationship after the first time that happens. And most women in abusive relationships DO know better than to stay. Fear and insecurity make them stay. Some women eventually gain the strength to leave, and I say good for them.

You still have not proven that the male in this situation is completely blameless. I’m not saying he deserves all or even most of the blame. What I am arguing is that he had his part to play in this tragic farce.

Dealing back some of your own snark back at you: Perhaps you’re guilty of a little misogyny, yourself. You certainly don’t seem to have a very high opinion of women.

LunaLena
wrote on January 21 2010 @ 10:13 am: [report]

southernwriter57 - why can’t you just accept that some people see this situation differently from you and move on?  You seem so determined to convince everyone that Anouk deserves 100% of the blame, and you keep repeating the same arguments over and over again.  Myself, I think she deserves 90%, while Jacob gets 10% for the reasons lareinedeslames stated, and nothing you can say will change my opinion on this.  So what exactly are you trying to achieve here?

southernwriter57
wrote on January 21 2010 @ 10:40 am: [report]

lareinedeslames

You will note that since you took as disrespect, my misspelling of your handle, I have spelled it correctly in this post and the last post.  I like you have respect for some women and not for others.  I have no misogyny in me.

Clearly you did not re=read the statement so I have copied it into the answer below.

we returned home from a tame evening out, both totally sober. We’d been arguing intermittently and there was a strange vibe between us when I flounced onto the overstuffed bed in my underwear, pouting petulantly.

Usually in an argument, there is fault on both sides I am the first to admit.  But there are times when one person is absolutely wrong, and the other is absolutely innocent.  To prove that concept, I mentioned a woman being abused.  I don’t care how many guys claim that Jacob was at least partially responsible.  A thorough reading of the account convinces me that he was totally innocent.  The author of the account upon re=reading knew that she should talk about safe words and chose not to. She admitted that her boyfrined was naive.  She insisted that the fantasy was that she wanted him to proceed in spite of her pleas for him to stop.  She set him up and then cried rape.  She is totally at fault.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 21 2010 @ 10:58 am: [report]

Hey Luna Lena:

I accept that people have differing opinions.  I was simply answering my critics.  I am willing to let the whole thing drop, but when someone challenges me, I feel duty bound to answer.

I would agree that this guy should accept 10% of the blame if he were sexually experienced.  Believe it or not there are a lot of guys out there who have very limited sexual experience for various reasons. The author explained that this guy was naive and by inference had never heard of a rape fantasy much as less the using of code words which I support.  Had he known about the use of code words then he should have asked her for her code word, but he did not.  He was simply trying to please his girlfriend’s sexual wishes.
To demand that he accept responsibility is to put him down for his lack of sexual experience.

Let me ask you a question?  Let us suppose that the situations were reversed?  Let’s say that Jacob was the sexually experienced one and the author had limited sexual experience.  The author had never heard of a rape fantasy before but Jacob brought it up and she consented wanting to please him.  Then Jacob goes into the rape fantasy and she gets scared and wants him to stop, but he continues.  She then learns about code words after the fact.  And Jacob wants her to share responsibilty because she should have known about code words, but instead trusted in him.  Would you say that the woman should share some of the blame?  If you can’t say that about the woman, then to say it about the man is misandry.  I would say that Jacob was totally at fault for not explaining the code word concept to her before engaging in the fantasy and that the woman was totally innocent.

lareinedeslames
wrote on January 22 2010 @ 06:01 am: [report]

@LunaLena: I knew there was a reason I adored you.

LunaLena
wrote on January 22 2010 @ 12:19 pm: [report]

@southernwriter57 - if you were really willing to let this drop, you wouldn’t be posing me hypothetical questions. I wasn’t challenging your opinion, I was simply stating mine, but your sense of “duty” has again obliged you to argue back.  See why I don’t think you can accept people having differing opinions?

But okay, since you’re now drawing me into the argument, I’ll respond.  First of all, on giving Jacob a pass because he was “inexperienced:” I don’t agree with this because, if he was completely new to this, he should have asked.  He could have looked it up on Google, written to Dan Savage (and don’t tell me no one does this, because I’ve seen Dan Savage and other advice columnists answer plenty of similar letters), or simply ask “so how is this going to work?  When do you want to do this?  What can I do to make you comfortable?”  Anouk could have done this as well, and as the instigator of the fantasy, she should have, which is why she gets the majority of the blame, but Jacob could have asked, and he didn’t.

Your hypothetical situation could go any number of ways.  Just off the top of my head, I can think of three different angles I could approach it with, with different results on how blame could be parceled out.  I’m sure if I sit down and actually try to write a response, I’ll think of many more.

@lareinedeslames - aww, thanks. :D

southernwriter57
wrote on January 22 2010 @ 10:48 pm: [report]

can we all just agree to drop it and that opinions have not been changed, I will if you will.

lareinedeslames
wrote on January 23 2010 @ 06:47 am: [report]

Awww, Southernwriter: see, if you had just let the matter drop, you’d have the moral high ground and wouldn’t have to slight me in order to feel superior.

That being said: Read the article more carefully, without trying to infer so many things. Naive is a subjective statement. Also, please do read LunaLena’s comments, since she has basically summarized everything I have tried to argue in a civilized manner.

Southernwriter: I did, in fact, re-read the statement. In point of fact, earlier in the comment thread, I quoted the statement myself. That would imply that I’ve read it now at least four times.

In ANY argument there is fault on both sides. That is, if we take argument in the sense of two people engaging in a prolonged discussion based on differences of opinion. It takes two people to argue, unless you have some real odd disorders going on.

And I do think you might have just a little bit of misogyny in you. You seem very quick to illustrate your points with examples of women being hurt, as if it’s of no consequence to you that such a thing happens many times every day. That would imply, to me, a general callousness either towards victims in general (which is unlikely given your defense of Jacob’s victimhood), or of female victims in particular.

You’re not the only one who can go all psychoanalytical.

titsmagee
wrote on January 23 2010 @ 06:52 am: [report]

@Southernwriter
Can’t you just accept that we don’t agree wtih you and let this go? You are not going to convince us that Jacob is 100% not at fault and we’re not going to convince you he is partially at fault. Let’s just all agree to disagree!

Jennifer Kesler
wrote on January 23 2010 @ 11:32 am: [report]

I find some of the comments here frankly disturbing.

If speaking your fantasies out loud entitles people to enact them AT you, then everyone who’s ever admitted “Yes, sometimes when I’m depressed I fantasize about dying” is in grave danger.

Anouka took full responsibility for her failure to communicate her boundaries. That’s where her responsibility ends.

If Jacob was so naive as to be completely innocent in this, how come he knew how to go about simulating a rape so convincingly? Sounds like a natural to me.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 25 2010 @ 09:35 am: [report]

Because Anouk detailed her fantasy to him in detail over the course of several conversations.  She specifically told him to ignore her pleas to stop and force her and force her legs apart.

After screwing him all day they took a break for dinner and then came back to the hotel where she proceeded to stip down to her panties and threw herself on the bed “petulantly” and told him that she dide not want to have sex with him.  Most of the comments on here that blame Jacob are by women.  The guy got a raw deal.

JACK_W
wrote on January 25 2010 @ 09:36 am: [report]

Frankly there’s not enough information to resolve these questions. All we have is a dramatized account of the incident w/o a clear description of what was communicated prior to or during the act. So the arguments hinge on assumptions that can’t be confirmed.

Also there’s no reason to believe that safe words, or some set of rape protocols, would have changed the outcome.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 25 2010 @ 09:52 am: [report]

There is EVERY REASON TO BELIEVE THAT CODE WORDS WOULD HAVE WORKED.  The guy said in shame and remorse that she turned him into a monster.  Most guys are good and decent and want to please their women and try hard to do that.  It is one thing to have women bash the poor guy, it is another to have a guy bash him. 

It is this common belief that women are good and that men are bad that bothers me.  She described him as a caring and gentle lover who was was naive.  She obviously had considerably more sexual experience than him.  He was just trying to please his woman.

Given the same set of circumstances of her renting the hotel room for his birthday, screwing him all day and then returning back to the room and stripping down to her panties and throwing herself on the bed “petulantly” and claiming that she did not want to have sex with him, I would have interpreted it the same way that he did, that she wanted me to enact her rape fantasy.  I have said in previous comments that I have been involved in several rape fantasies with several partners and we had agreed on a code word for the woman.  She did not indicate that she wanted a code word and she did not tell him to stop in clear and unequivocal manner but expected him to read her mind.  That is not fair to the guy.

lareinedeslames
wrote on January 25 2010 @ 07:08 pm: [report]

Okay, so the abuse of language has GOT to stop, please?

I am good an tired of seeing “petulantly”—as if Anouk is saying “Oh, well I threw myself on the bed and made a pouty face at him like when my boyfriends won’t buy me a drink.”

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/petulant

If you’re going to try and use the text as a basis for your arguments, at least use it appropriately.

Jennifer also makes an excellent point.

Southernwriter, honestly, I think you just need to drop it. You haven’t made a single argument stick; when others come up with new reasons to rebut your arguments, you repeat yourself as if that is proof on its own. She tried at least two different ways to indicate her preference that he stop, so your argument that she just “expected him to read her mind” is ridiculous. And unless he was all of 16, there is no way that he was so naive that he couldn’t have figured out that something was wrong.

Can we please move on to something else? Clearly we’re not going to agree on this.

southernwriter57
wrote on January 25 2010 @ 10:26 pm: [report]

Okay, I am saying uncle, we have done this to death and few minds were changed,but a lot of discussion happened.  I think that we can all agree if you are going to enact a rape fantasy, you need to be clear on what you want and what you don’t and have clear and unambigous code words.

I absolutely agree that usually there is fault on both sides.  I just feel sorry for Jacob.  This has scarred him for life.  A gentle and loving guy who was trying to please his girlfriend.  I give him grace if no one else will.

kiki1
wrote on January 26 2010 @ 07:32 pm: [report]

It is NOT your fault.
  I’m sorry that he lashed out at you afterwards, blamed you, telling you that you could have stopped it, that you were asking for it, etc….while you were still vulnerable/recovering from having been violated, no less.
  I’m sorry that he chose to enact it without prior discussion, without your consent, and at a wholly inappropriate time (after a fight?). 
  At best, he is naive, a little dim when it comes to reading signs, and, like you, didn’t know the rules.  But—and I’m trying to restrain myself here—he should have known better.  Period. 

  If a person has, let’s say, a choking fantasy that she shares with her partner, and they flirt around with the idea and both get off on it—that is A LOT different than one person suddenly, without consent, starting to choke another. 
  In other words, she may have brought the idea up, but he was the choker, so to speak, and thus it was primarily HIS responsibility to know the rules.  I don’t care if he’d been living an insular, chaste Quaker lifestyle before this happened, these aren’t secret sex rules; in my mind, these are obvious, human rules.  If you’re asked to hurt someone for their pleasure, you first ask when and where.  It’s not something you do on your own terms, and without checking in first…that is, indeed, a violation. 

  This article hits close to home, because I also have “ravishing” fantasies (yeah, better word) that I have mentioned to my current BF.  However, we haven’t discussed safety words yet…not only because we haven’t agreed to act the fantasy out yet (if at all), but because, on some level, I trust this person to gauge whether or not he is or is not actually violating me (i.e. not doing it out of the clear blue sky). But after reading your article, Anouk, I realize that trusting my partner is not enough, and that I need to establish rules asap.  So thank you for posting this.

And, by the way, from what I have heard and read, rape fantasies are very common.  I am a strong feminist, have a high self-esteem, was a virgin until age 25 (a few months ago), and I even dominate my boyfriends a little…so…that’s just a rebuttal to those commentators who find these fantasies suspect in any way.  These fantasies are normal. 
  However, the trauma and violence of real rape is not even in the same zip code as such fantasies.  Anyone who engages in mild BDSM knows the difference between “good” consensual pain and real, non-consensual pain…both parties do, in my opinion.  So if we’re going to go around blaming people (although we are not in a position to), let’s back off from Anouk and scrutinize this boyfriend.