Girl Talk: Should We Ask Victims Of Domestic Violence Why They Stayed?

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 12:38 pm: [report]

Judy, I think it’s really brave of you to write about this experience in your life and I’m sorry that you didn’t have a better support system during that time. I’m not sure how old you are or where you grew up, but it sounds like there wasn’t much awareness among the adults about looking for the signs of an abusive relationship and how to respond to it.

Congratulations on getting past all this. I hope you got the help you need and he got the help he needed, too.

bogart4017
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 12:40 pm: [report]

Okay i’ll try and help you once. Then after that i figure you know what you’re doing. I Tried to help my sister who was being abused. She wouldn’t move out of state so i gave her 700 dollars as a down payment on a divorce. Seven years later she is still married. What more can i do?

Rose
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 01:13 pm: [report]

I think the hot question is “how do you find the strength to leave?”, not “why do you stay?”.  You should be proud of yourself, Judy.  The judgemental ones have no idea whereof they speak.

meg97
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 01:15 pm: [report]

I hate how insensitive people can be on this subject. Victims of domestic abuse have physiological issues that makes them stay with the abuser, I can say this because I used to be a victim. It’s impossible to understand unless you’ve been in the situation.
When my relationship with my abuser was ending, and my best friend realized how severe the situation really was, she asked me why. And I had no answer. All I could say was that I never ever thought I would be in that situation, and I had no idea how it got so out of control. To this day I can’t really understand it, all I know is that I won’t let it happen again.

ahw
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 01:25 pm: [report]

I think that women need to tell their stories.  Being in a relationship like this sucks to the outside world, sucks looking back on it, but I think women (or men who are abused, because it happens!) should be allowed to explain the thoughts they thought and the feelings they felt during physical, emotional, or any other type of abuse.

People like Phil from Reno would understand more why some of the strongest women and men that I know fell prey to abusive relationships.  This could get us on the way to figuring out how to help women who are stuck in this harrowing situation.

raneforst
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 01:29 pm: [report]

I found the most important part of this to be:
“The woman on the street who saw me being beaten and asked if I wanted her to call the police should’ve just called.”
Abusive men often know exactly which buttons to push in order to keep their victim around.

Ginger
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 01:38 pm: [report]

One of the best lessons my dad taught me when I was little was about not putting up with people who would want to hurt me. He executed it kind of oddly because it was while we were watching ‘Little Shop of Horrors’. Campy though that musical is, there’s a line that Audrey says when someone asks why she doesn’t leave her abusive boyfriend. She tells them “I’d like to, But if this is how he treats me when he likes me, imagine what he’d do if he got angry.”

That sort of fear probably keeps a lot of people (not just women) in abusive relationships. And when you add that to any sort of guilt, it’s no wonder that so many people find it hard to leave.

I’m glad you got out of the relationship, Judy. And that you’re trying to use your experiences to educate others.

Netty
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 01:45 pm: [report]

I think the only people asking the victim why should be herself and her counselor.

The answer seems simple. But it isn’t. A lot of women who are abused in relationships started being abused by their dads or sexually abused by relatives. I guess from my own experiences I would think the victim would feel sad and angry maybe even foolish by asking them that. It’s so much more complicated in the situation than being an outsider.

I remember being 12 and watching my brother beat up on his girlfriend. To the point of blood and bruises. And I would sit crying in my mom’s bedroom (the only one with a lock on the door) with their baby and asking “why” over and over. Sometimes she would try and start fights with him and other times he did. Either way he was always scary. And out of control.

I would call my mom at her work, crying. My mom spend years trying to tell that girl to leave my brother, and she only did for drugs. Looking bad I feel guilty because we were so concerned with my brother’s welfare. We should have turned him into the police.

He still treats his girlfriends like that. Except the one now won’t admit it. Except once she did, that he choked her. I am 18 and still feel like I did when I was 12. I live too many states away to even do anything now but I am still asking myself “why”.

joyy
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 01:52 pm: [report]

//Perhaps if they had relied on mental health professionals instead of prayer, they could’ve actually helped their deeply disturbed son and saved the female population from another violent predator. //

It’s unreal what parents will turn a blind eye to.  My parents turned a blind eye to 4 years of seriously, let’s just say, unhealthy and self-destructive behavior that tore me in half in my younger years.  They sat by and did NOTHING to help their own child.  Judy, your parents should have intervened in your abuse - especially if you were living at home during that time.

The first bullet point reminds me exactly of my bf’s family.  We went to his grandmother’s funeral, and one of his aunts told a story about how she was overwhelmed with 2 babies, called her mom, and her mom told her “there is no problem in this world but sin.  rock your babies.”  It’s that kind of fingers in your ears parenting that probably caused her oldest son to develop and get way out of hand with rx pill abuse, which eventually killed him via overdose. 

Parents: you have more influence over your children than you will ever know, even if you think they’re not listening.  This goes for both what you do/how you live your own life and what you tell your kids.

tabby
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 02:03 pm: [report]

I think that it has been pretty well documented that the abused stay with their abusers for a host of reasons such as having no where else to go or sharing a child, but also that they all are suffering from feeling worthless and powerless. One simply cannot expect a person with little to no self worth to be able to see a way out without some serious help. $700 for a divorce won’t fix things. Offering a place to live and sessions with a shrink might. And at any rate, there will never be a satisfactory answer to the question “why did/do you stay?” So why put a victim in more distress by asking?

writergirl
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 02:05 pm: [report]

I was eight years old and in the car with my mom, returning home.  As we turned into the entrance to our development, there was my friend’s uncle standing in the middle of the road beating the crap out of his girlfriend while she sat in the driver’s seat of a car.

Behind them, in his yard, was another neighbor.  Both my mother and the neighbor ignored the incident.

I remember being bothered by that even at 8.  And I asked why my mom didn’t do anything and she said something to the effect of “keeping her nose out of other people’s business.”  I didn’t know what she could have done (at eight you don’t) but I just knew that she or the neighbor should have done something. 

The incident left a horrible taste in my mouth about what we should or shouldn’t do when we see abuse—any type of abuse—occuring.  Keeping my nose out of it, wasn’t even in the realm of possibilities.

When in college, I was walking down the street with my best friend and her boyfriend and they were bantering.  Next thing I know, he hauled off and belted her.  I, in turn, hauled off and belted him, then dragged her away.  I offered to call the cops—she said no.  (She was not injured and neither was he).  She then proceeded to tell me that he wasn’t “really” hitting her, that it was just a ‘play’.  I didn’t go into the why’s or what are you doing.  I just said simply, “Well, if that’s how hard he hits when he’s ‘joking’ imagine how hard he’ll hit when he’s pissed.”  And then I never mentioned it again.

She left him a week later.

Asking why doesn’t always jar something in the victim’s psyche.  They don’t know why—just that they are.  The woman in the coffee shop with Judy handled it the right way, I think.  You can talk to an abused person until your blue in the face about why they should leave their abuser, but unless they are ready to face it, they won’t.

Great article, Judy.  I’m sorry you had to endure that.

sophie19
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 02:32 pm: [report]

Judy: you should be proud of yourself for finding that strength to leave and in turn finding your voice to share your story.

“Why?” is a question that can/should only be asked after the fact.

retro chic
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 02:52 pm: [report]

Feminism without compassion, without the “sister’s keeper” axiom applied IRL practice, is no feminism – to me. Hiss Hirschman.

@joyy: 100%, esp about the parents.

We have more influence, and must have the righteous balls to intervene, and stop being kids’ best friend. Who is it helping? Vain popularity with other parents, or living thru your kid? When my daughter is throwing occasional “hate” my way, I know I’m doing my job right, even if it hurts me. The pros are a great and necessary adjunct, but certainly not the answer.

Judy, I’m very sorry for your experience. You’ve come thru it and are in the best possible position as a journalist to enlighten others.

@bogart4017: “What more can I do?” More of what you were doing, even if it’s long-distance phone calls with consistent assurances of “I’ll always be on your side, I’m your family, I’m there for you.” People in that scenario don’t know what they’re doing or know how to help themselves. It is hard to understand this because logic is being applied, and we all know the most extreme life events – good or bad – have nothing whatever to do with logic.

Coral
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 03:58 pm: [report]

For 10 years—until I was 12, I was sexually abused by a relative. And at about 13 is when I started dating. My first boyfriend was physically abusive to me and it took me a couple of months to leave. And although each boyfriend I have is drastically better than the last, I knew at some point that I had to face reasons why I allowed myself to be abused (verbally, emotionally, etc) and that this was something I needed to change. I have never used the term ‘victim’ because I don’t have time to waste on blaming myself and others. But what I have learned (I am now 18) is that it is important to as these questions-carefully. Because as I look back, the reasons I stayed in a physically abusive relationship are complicated. I didn’t know that I deserved better. I deceived myself by believing that it was ‘love’. I deceived myself by believing the abuse would also end. I had no idea how to leave, who to tell, how to prevent myself from getting hurt once I leave. So my conclusion is that I do think it is important for abused women to be asked why they stayed—because I believe they do need to figure out what was stopping them in order for them to prevent furthering the cycle of continuing to batter themselves. That way women can also understand what a healthy relationship truly is.

Kesseire
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 06:38 pm: [report]

I have seen close friends become involved in abusive relationships, which I didn’t know where abusive until after the fact. These are women who I would never believe would stay with someone who had hit them, maligned them, or raped them.

We all have insecurities. I’ve come to believe it’s the rare teenager or early twenty-something who has the self-confidence, self-awareness, and support network to get out of a relationship which is slowly becoming toxic. That remains true of many women in their thirties, forties, fifties, and so on. There is nothing particularly unique or vulnerable about a woman who is abused which caused her to be in that situation; she could be almost ANY woman.

Abusers have the ability to pick out a person’s insecurities and use them like a weapon, or GIVE people more insecurities so they have greater weaknesses. It’s an ongoing process. I don’t think the abusers necessarily even realize what they’re doing; that’s why we need to teach men (and women) that they should not abuse others, and teach them how to see the signs in themselves and realize what’s wrong about their behavior.

I’m sick of the onus always being put on the person who is beaten or raped. It’s not something you can necessarily avoid, and it’s not something that’s easy to escape. We should not ask why women don’t leave abusers; we should ask why the hell the men are abusing them in the first place.

wawmama
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 06:45 pm: [report]

@Kesseire “I’m sick of the onus always being put on the person who is beaten or raped. It’s not something you can necessarily avoid, and it’s not something that’s easy to escape. We should not ask why women don’t leave abusers; we should ask why the hell the men are abusing them in the first place.”

Thank you for that.

_jsw_
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 07:09 pm: [report]

I’m so sorry about what happened to all of those who have commented about their previous abuse, and I am bothered by those who seem unable to understand what it’s like to be the victim.

I’ve never really been in a physically abusive relationship, but I was in a verbally abusive one for years. It was nowhere near, not close in any way, to the situations described by others here, but the experience was enough for me to understand the point of view of a victim. Sometimes, yes, it’s simply that they don’t know where else to go, and in those cases the path needs to be made very clear, without significant cost to them, and they need to be helped and persuaded along that path. Also, yes, at times the victim doesn’t even really know they’re a victim. I got so used to my situation that it required the presence of friends and family - something I rarely had because I’d moved far away - to make it clear to me that what I was tolerating and responding to was wrong. To me, it had just become the way things were. And, of course, victims will often blame themselves and/or excuse the abuser because it’s not really their fault, or it’s our fault, or it is their fault but we know why they do it.

In my case, the abuse ended because the causes for it were identified and, over time, fixed. In fact, the situation somewhat reversed itself for a while, unfortunately. But I was fortunate in that many have it vastly worse, are in a much less tenable situation, and are afraid that trying to fix things will only make it worse.

Truly, it is absolutely correct that we need to help the victims - although the way to do so might not be immediately apparent - and not blame them. Very few people stay in abusive situations because they’re aware of them but just too damned lazy to care.

retro chic
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 07:11 pm: [report]

@Kesseire: “I’m sick of the onus always being put on the person who is beaten or raped…we should ask why the hell the men are abusing them in the first place.” Great comment and excellent teaching example.

You know what? That’s what *this* article should have been about – in the first place. This really illustrates when you’re in such a disorienting situation, or recovering from it, that it’s still hard to get clear-headed about where the questions should be aimed, and who should be answering them. The damage is so far-reaching…

TotallyRidiculous
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 07:54 pm: [report]

I don’t understand why people need to even ask that question.  It seems to me pretty obvious why women stay with their abusers.  It’s because the physical abuse isn’t just physical abuse.  It’s a whole package.  It’s mental and emotional manipulation.  It’s a pattern of abuse, it’s not just hitting.  These abusers know what they are doing.  They systematically isolate their victims, and destroy their sense of self worth, among many other things.  Why is that so hard for people to understand?  I think people are so hard on victims because it helps them convince themselves that it would never happen to them.  They don’t want to support someone who keeps going back because they like to think that the other person is just weaker than they are, and a strong, smart person would never get caught in that kind of trap, so it could never happen to them.

Leo
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 07:57 pm: [report]

I read this site to learn, and today I learned more than I ever expected.  I am the father of 3 teenagers.  I have already had the “talk” with the two older brothers:  politics, religion, careers, life, sex.  Let them know where I stand and what support they can count on from me.  The sex part for the boys included their responsibility for their partner’s ‘non-pregnancy’.  My discussion with my daughter is due soon, and while I always knew the sex portion would be a bit different from the boys (her being more directly affected by an unwanted pregnancy), I had never before considered the need for an ‘abuse’ sub-topic under the ‘life’ heading.  Now, in addition to letting her know that she can count on me in general, I’m going to make certain she knows she has my support in the case of an abusive boyfriend - a safe place, a way out, if she ever needs it.  And as @retro pointed out, I’ll need to regularly remind her of my support.  In terms of my own peace of mind as she grows older, this advice from all of you has been priceless.

Ripp
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 08:17 pm: [report]

I think it is time to look seriously at what we are teaching girls and boys about their own gender. Girls learn early on that they are not as important as boys. At least, most of us do. It is rare even in the 21st century that a girl will learn from society at large that she is worthy, important, powerful, and intelligent - let alone that she will be given self-esteem building exercises to practice so that she can fully integrate that information. Girls, still in this day and age, are taught that they have certain limits and expectations.

I believe that a woman who is truly comfortable in her own skin, who is able to live a full life with or without a partner, who declares what she is and is not willing to experience in her life and backs up that declaration, will not attract an abusive partner.

I also believe that a man who is truly comfortable in his own skin, who is able to live a full life with or without a partner, who declares what he is and is not willing to experience in his life and backs up that declaration, will not attract a woman that could be abused.

The way our society looks at relationships is sick. We set girls and boys up from childhood to focus on having that relationship without helping them define and identify who and what they will be as individuals first. A healthy relationship should be one where both people are clear about who they are, what they want, and what they are and are not willing to experience. Once they know who they are and are completely comfortable in the knowing, they may then be willing to find a partner they can share those things with. A healthy relationship is one of absolutely no obligation to the other person but one where you treat each other with love and respect because that is how you want to be treated in return. 

If I tell my boyfriend that I don’t want to go to a party with him where there will be alcohol and drugs, but after he pleads with me and brings me a present, I give in, that is a huge red flag! For both people! If I am not willing to go to a party where there are drugs and alcohol, then I need to stand my ground. Mixed messages can not only bring on danger, they can cause ourselves confusion and make us question our own values. If we aren’t clear about what we are and are not willing to have in our lives, how can we expect others to know?

Girls need to learn that they have the power to create the lives that they want. We do not have to settle, we do not have to beg, we do not have to barter, we do not have to compromise. And neither do boys.

But where will they learn these things? We have millions of grown adults right now who have no boundaries with each other because they don’t understand that they are worth it and they don’t believe they have power.

This is not just about setting boundaries, but in being clear about the boundaries and then being absolutely ready to back it up should someone breach those boundaries. We all need to start today. Right now. What are you willing to accept? What do you refuse to accept? What are you willing to do if someone violates your boundaries?

Let’s teach each other how to respect each other by respecting ourselves.

http://recovery-anewstory.blogspot.com/

ahw
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 09:10 pm: [report]

Something that is really bothering me about these posts here is that they are sexist.  Not towards women, but towards men.  I have a male friend who was caught in a horribly abusive relationship.  My friend almost killed himself because he didn’t know any other way to escape.  Please, please, please people, notice that it isn’t just gender stereotypes that cause abusive relationships!  It doesn’t just happen to women!  I understand that women are abused far more often than men, especially physically, but I’m tired of hearing that girls are the only ones who need to be warned about abusive relationships.  If you have sons, teach them not only to be good boyfriends but to look for the warning signs of an abusive relationship forming where they are the victim.  The same should be taught to girls.

moonblossom
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 09:15 pm: [report]

@Judy - great article. Thanks for sharing

@Phil in Reno - you’re a douche bag. If all you have to share is your bumper-sticker-guide-to-life….don’t bother.

Symian
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 09:32 pm: [report]

Not trying to stir up any controversy as I know that round these parts you can’t always express your opinion, but I don’t understand why it would be up to anyone else to get someone out of this type of situation.  I only say that because I have tried to help a girl with a young daughter get away from her husband.  It seems like even if others get involved, the person being abused will drop charges, lie to the police, lie to the family, anything to go back to the situation, even when provided with an out.  Eventually, I stopped talking to her because I couldn’t keep picking her and her child up in the middle of the night only to have to bring them back to him and listening to her complain that he’s so mean, but then she’d always go back.  It’s like when I watched a few of my friends kill themselves with heroine, I did everything I could to help, but they weren’t ready.  I guess what I’m getting at is that although I feel very little (if any) sympathy for adults in abusive situations, it’s sad thst people have to go through this and they feel so alone when everyone they know would rally around them if only they asked.  I suppose there is no helping abused people if they aren’t ready to move on and be helped.

wonderfultonight
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 10:01 pm: [report]

My parents had a friend who was a police officer who had answered many domestic violence calls. The woman would never have her abuser arrested. Then the town started a program to send a female officer along with the male officer. Women found it a bit easier to talk with a female oficer instead of being confronted by two more males who often lacked sympathy for the beaten woman. They discovered that most women still would not have the guy arrested, but told the reason - if they did, the guy would kill them or hurt them worse when he got out. One woman was so afraid that she would not even let them call an ambulance because the hospital was required to report the abuse.

Even when getting the courage to take out a restraining order, women found they were stalked and eventually suffered greatly once the order was lifted.

The posts saying more should be done to find out why these guys are so abusive in the first place and get them help have touched on a much neglected part of the situation. Not confronting the man’s part in this only re-enforces the woman’s sense that it’s her fault somehow since no one attempts to deal with the man other than jail him, which usually infuriates him and makes the situation worse.

It took a lot of courage for those of you who have shared your stories and for Judy to write the article in the first place. Congratulations on getting out of these situations.

@Leo, so glad to read you will be talking about this to your daughter. I think that knowing she has your support will help her avoid these situations. I hope other Dads out there will follow your lead.

abbyabitha
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 10:09 pm: [report]

Perhaps instead of being called a victim of domestic violence, you should be called a survivor! Lord help all of you who live in glass houses, hopefully there are no stones coming your way!

GAgirlinNYC
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 10:24 pm: [report]

@ Phil in Reno: you can suck it.

As a victim of domestic violence myself, I cannot believe how cold people can be on the subject. It’s never just in black and white. Until you have been there, you have no idea what it is like.

Symian
wrote on July 24 2009 @ 10:26 pm: [report]

@wonderfultonight, that’s very interesting what you said about sending the female officer with a male, seems like a great idea, although I guess it didn’t work how they had hoped.  Also, the fact about the orders of protection are true, once it’s up there’s no legal barrier to help the abused.  Here in Clark County there is a domestic violence program set up to help women in these situations.  I had a friend from high school with two little girl and her man beat her multiple times a month.  When she was ready, she filed a report and when he went to jail she was offered three tickets to anywhere in the contiguous United States and she had I think two days to leave.  That was about three years ago, and she is living elsewhere and her daughters are finally happy and doing well in school and socializing again.  Needless to say, it took this girl almost seven years to accept any help, and the only thing I would do for her was take her daughters because they couldn’t leave.  She’s a different person now and she realizes how valuable she is as a person and the importance of her role as a mother.
@abbyabitha, glad my house is made of straw…

Coral
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 12:03 am: [report]

I very much do not like the term ‘victim’. Maintaining the ‘victim’ stance makes one feel weaker instead of gaining his or her strength. And I do feel that abuse makes someone stronger in a way. I have always preferred the terms survivor, conqueror, etc because the term ‘victim’ will only allow the abused person to be submissive and to stick on to the past too much. And in now way am I blaming a ‘victim’, but I know from experience that it takes a lot of work in order to turn around the negative experiences and energy into positive ones to create a stronger sense of self.

I also think something worth noting is that abuse is similar to an addiction in some ways. A ‘victim’ who has been through various forms of abuse will not look for healthy relationships and love because he or she does not know love and bonding in any other way. When serious forms of abuse occur, a female ‘victim’ will subconsciously seek out further abuse for she does not know another way to receive attention, love, etc. It becomes this vicious cycle of a woman abusing herself in a way. Although let me make myself clear, this is VERY different from pointing blame at a woman or other abuse ‘victims’. But abuse transfers itself like addictions can transfer. And I think it’s important to note that many abuse ‘victims’ go through addiction troubles with alcohol, drugs, food, sex, etc. And I think it’s also important to teach people about the dangers of this as well.

@leo: I think it’s great that you will talk to your daughter about domestic violence/dating violence. My parents talked to me about it, yet they still had no idea that I went through a cycle of abuse because I was still not comfortable with admitting to myself what was going on—let alone telling my parents. As a suggestion, I think it could be beneficial if an aunt or some sort of mentor could also tell your daughter the same thing to reinforce what you say to her because even at 18, I still don’t want to listen to my parents.

alphabete
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 12:34 am: [report]

I like the idea they’re doing in @wonderfultonight’s town.  Perhaps a solution to fruitless domestic violence calls is this: when a call comes in and there is clearly abuse and not, say, someone trying to get their partner into trouble, there should be an arrest.  If an arrest is not made then the couple should be charged for the cost of the visit to their home.  There is really no reason to call the police, and especially to have them in your home if you’re not going to make use of their services except as a relationship counselor.  Relationship counselors cost money, as do the police, and if they’re not going to be there doing their jobs then the taxpayers should not be paying for them to go (often repeatedly) to a home where the outcome is that they leave without someone in handcuffs.

To all the survivors of domestic violence, from a fellow survivor (as a child, not as an adult), please understand that nobody is trying to make you feel like crap.  Good thing you got away, good thing you finally escaped, but you had to make a choice to do so.  You had to say “I am no longer going to take this” and then you had to act on it.  It’s not wrong to ask someone why they haven’t acted, and it’s not wrong to say to them that it’s their own choice that is keeping them there.  If someone got abducted off the street, taken to someone’s home, beaten, raped, and put down, at the first opportunity they would probably try to escape.  If the cops came and were standing there, I believe that they would demand an arrest and leave with the police, not stay to endure further maltreatment.  If they have not done so, or found a reason to do so then it’s not worth it enough to them to leave.  Which is fine, as long as they are the only ones being hurt.

Kesseire
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 06:57 am: [report]

@alphabete:

My work touches on issues of human trafficking. Women who are trafficked into prostitution are often forced into the “business” in precisely the way you described - they’re forced or tricked to going to a location, where they are beaten, threatened, and raped (and often deliberately addicted to drugs) for a period of time. They rarely, rarely escape, because they feel there -is- no opportunity. They’re convinced that if they leave their pimp or madam they’ll be tortured or killed.

Even when brothels are raided, many of the women will not admit that they were held there involuntarily because they’re concerned about reprisals. Anti-trafficking groups have repeatedly discovered that to get any women to testify against their traffickers, they almost always have to be promised anonymity, protection, and assistance in building a new life in a new place, even if the traffickers are in jail. That’s far more assistance than we provide people in abusive relationships.

If women who are being held involuntarily by strangers will refuse to cooperate with the police out of fear, imagine how much more complicated the situation is when the abuser and the abused have an emotional history together. When the abuser has access to her bank accounts, her family and friends, her employer, or her children.

Please don’t assume you know what “most women” would do in an assault situation and use those assumptions to criticize women who have been abused.

DancingGeek
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 11:22 am: [report]

@ Phil In Reno- you have no idea what you are talking about.  You have no idea what it is like to not have enough financial independence or support to leave a bad situation, you have no idea what it is like to fear for your life- yeah you can get a restraining order, but guess what? It’s just a piece of paper, and many women have been beaten and killed by men against whom they have a restraining order.

@ TotallyRidiculous- THANK YOU! I couldn’t have said it better myself.

wonderfultonight
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 01:09 pm: [report]

@symian The program did not work out as well initially, but it at least got the women to talk about their fears. This revealed the complete lack of support services for the woman after she DID have the guy arrested. The town officials had completely ignored that until the police program started. It led gradually - too gradually - to women’s shelters where they could receive counseling and safety for themselves as well as their children. It is especially important, I think, to get the kids out of such an environment since so many abusers and their victims seem to come from homes where their parents have been abusive.

Nikoe4Sho
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 01:26 pm: [report]

Thank you @ahw- it isn’t only women that get abused. I have a family friend who was abused by his wife for many years, and thankfully got out after 23-years of marriage.

The core of feminism consists of equality and sisterhood, and to condemn those abused rather than show unconditional support is as anti-feminist as you can get, in my eyes. How contrary to call oneself an activist for women, then fail to support other women who need it most.

wonderfultonight
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 02:03 pm: [report]

@alphabete Sometimes, the call to the police is placed by neighbors disturbed by all the noise, but they are not actually obseving the domestic abuse.  It would not be fair to charge them or the people actually involved for the call. In fact, it might discourage those few who will report something. In Judy’s case, if the woman who offered to call police had actually done it, should she be liable for the cost since no arrest was made? nor should Judy have been forced to pay since she no doubt would not have had the man arrested at that time.

It is sad that there is such a long history of people refusing to help a fellow human being, even by placing a 911 call - the “I don’t want to get involved crowd”.

eskim00ninja
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 02:55 pm: [report]

As apart of therapy you have to figure out why you got with someone like that in the beginning let alot why you stayed.

That’s just a fact.

Ripp
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 03:19 pm: [report]

Eskimooninja: That is exactly what I said, but apparently there are obviously a lot of people who not only don’t recognize their own power to attract what they want but apparently a lot of them that seem SO caught up in the victimization that it is like describing water to fish. It isn’t good, bad, right, or wrong though. It is exactly the way it is supposed to be. Some people just aren’t at the jumping off stage yet.

alphabete
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 04:23 pm: [report]

@wonderfultonight: I was not clear in my statement and should have been more specific to say if a call comes in from the home where the abuse is taking place, hence “when a call comes in and there is clearly abuse and not, say, *someone trying to get their partner into trouble*, there should be an arrest.”  Not to be a dick, I’m just clarifying that I meant when a call is placed from inside the home.  If the call comes from a third party then that’s a completely different story in my opinion.  As far as becoming involved, Ive called 911 a few times myself.  I now have a rule that I will call one time unless there is a child in danger, which will prompt me to call as many times as necessary.  I’m not anti-getting involved, I am just anti-expending energy on a fruitless cause.

@Kesseire: So basically all those stories of women who get away from those situations are not indicative that there is indeed a measure of choice?  Perhaps it is simply that those people do not value their lives, because they could as easily get killed staying in a situation whether it’s trafficking or DV.  I can agree that it may be more comfortable than leaving, and I can agree that it’s scary to leave.  I cannot agree however that a person who really *really* wants something better than what they have, will not do whatever they must to get it.  To suggest otherwise would be to slap in the face every person who has struggled and clawed his or her way out of a horrifying situation under the power of his or her own will.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,331695,00.html
If Erica Pratt can chew her way through duct tape and kick out a basement window at the age of 7 to escape a captor then she’s showing up every adult who languishes (a simple phone call or conversation away from people who have tried to help) in a misery they choose every single time they don’t walk out the door with the police or with their friend or alone when their abuser isn’t home.

Kesseire
wrote on July 25 2009 @ 09:54 pm: [report]

@alphabete

So you’re citing incidences which are so rare that they make mention in Time magazine for the proposition that women who remain in abusive situations do so out of “choice”?

You suggest that arguing people who are kept in abusive situations don’t stay out of a voluntary “choice” is “a slap in the face every person who has struggled and clawed his or her way out of a horrifying situation under the power of his or her own will.” Your comment is extreme. How does it in any way undercut the magnitude of what someone has done (and rarely alone, it should be added - what would any escapee have been able to accomplish without the assistance of police, or other parts of society which would help them get past the trauma and reintegrate into society)?

This is not a competition. People who remain in abusive situations are not being pitted against people who got out of them.

Seriously, your argument is rather like saying, “Since some people manage to claw their way out of poverty and illiteracy and become rich, obviously people choose to be poor,” or like saying, “Since some people manage to overcome childhood abuse without any therapy, obviously people who rely on therapists are simply reveling in their trauma and not choosing to get over it.”

I would hope the ridiculousness of those arguments would be readily apparent.

rowdygirl
wrote on July 26 2009 @ 12:56 pm: [report]

I understand what you’ve been through. I was with my ex for 23 years and it mostly hell. I didn’t endure the physical abuse that you did, but there was plenty of verbal abuse. After 3 years of being divorced, I’m still coming to terms with the life I lived and why. 
The real question to be asked is not “why did she stay?”, but “why is he allowed to behave this way, why does he do it, why won’t he ne punished for this?”
These are much more important questions. Some people look in from the outside and say “if she stays, then she deserves it or she likes it”
They just don’t understand the situation, and lots of times, the woman won’t understand why either. There are lots of reason, some of the same, and some are very different. I didn’t have children, so I didn’t stay for that reason. Some of my issues were low self esteem, fear of living alone, fear of failing at being a good wife, embarassment & having to endure the “I told you so’s”... there are plenty of other reasons.
The thing that propelled to freedom was this:  the physical abuse escalated, the danger element was heightened, and I realized that I no longer feared the unknown as much as I did the “known”.  I was able to say that I would rather die than continue to try to exist in that house.  When I reached that point I was able to leave. It wasn’t easy, but it was worth the risk. 
My life isn’t all sunshine and happiness; I’m in therapy and trying to discover who I am. I live alone, and I’m sad and lonely at times, but at least I’m safe and it’s peaceful.
When you enoucnter a woman in a bad situation, open your mind and your heart. Don’t assume she is getting what she deserves and it’s her fault.
There are many layers to all relationships, especially violent ones.

skywalk
wrote on July 27 2009 @ 07:59 am: [report]

Most physically abusive relationships start off as verbally abusive and if you are young (or not) and haven’t developed any self worth it is easy for them to make you feel like you’re worthless and no one would want to be with you etc…  I’ve had a few men try and do that to me, but I was strong enough to walk away (but I took it for longer then I should have) but I understand that a lot of women/or men may not have strength to walk away.  If you are being verbally abused get out, there is a strong chance that it will get physical.

ksks
wrote on July 27 2009 @ 08:07 am: [report]

It took the death of Nicole Brown Simpson for people to understand that an abused woman, already enduring physical and mental abuse on a regular basis, is fearful of bringing on additional abuse by shining a light on the abuser. This is why they created the law where if the cop sees signs of abuse they will make an arrest whether the abused one wants it or not. If you just got beat up and the cops show up and ask you whether you want to press charges are you going to say yes so he gets out in 2 days and kills you? Anyone who has been abused knows the restraining order isn’t worth anything. People who haven’t been abussed can talk all they want about something they know nothing about. COUNTLESS women have been killed who have restraining orders.

ksks
wrote on July 27 2009 @ 08:14 am: [report]

To understand why someone stays in an abusive relationship was best put by my sister who was in a very healthy relationship while I was in an abusive one…...she said “how can someone in an abusive relationship understand what a normal relationship is like?” It’s similar to people who have mental disorders like schizophrenia or dementia. Do they know what normal is? When your reality is distorted, your choices will be too.

PinkRanger
wrote on July 27 2009 @ 11:21 am: [report]

@ksks: exactly.

In retrospect I realize that decisions I made led to my abuse, which is partially why I fought to get out in the end, but I didn’t even realize how bad it was until it was too late. I was so blinded by infatuation *not love, as I’ve come to realize* and fear. It’s hard when people ask you “why you stayed”, I don’t have an hour to discuss it or go into details.  There has never been a simple answer, but the only way I can get loved ones to stop blaming me for what happened seemed to be to answer “I was young and naive”. Sometimes I feel like everyone is trying to find a weakness or a flaw in me, to comfort themsleves. They can then say “That will never happen to me, it only happened to PinkRanger because of x, y, and z. I"m not like that”. I still find myself telling people that I was naive, but I don’t think I was any more naive than my friends who weren’t trapped in such a relationship.

I still struggle with the constant notions that I’m weak, submissive, worthless, etc. I still feel in many ways, that I never left. It’s a situation and a mindset that can’t be described or understood unless you’ve been there. I sometimes even work myself into thinking that I ruined his life, and not the other way around, seeing as how is is currently incarcerated. The best thing anyone outside of these situations can do is just try to be a support system, be open for conversation and comfort. I must admit, I find thefrisky.com and the strong women who share here to be quite comforting at times

snap
wrote on July 28 2009 @ 12:49 pm: [report]

why do i stay?

i love him
he is the father of my children
i depend on him financially
and emotionally
he will change
it is my fault anyway
he was just upset
this isn’t who he really is
i’m scared to be alone
what if i lose my children
my children should not have to live in secret in a shelter
i treasure my photographs and valuables and memories in this home
how will we eat?
where will we sleep?
i have no skills to get a job
he loves me
he needs me
i need him
i am pregnant

why does she stay?
because leaving is the most dangerous time.  victims of DV are most likely to be killed or seriously injured when they try to leave.

it is not as simple as asking why.

ahw
wrote on July 28 2009 @ 01:12 pm: [report]

frisked—Let me add:

He was so nice when we started dating; he’ll change back.

He’s just going through a phase; he’s stressed.

He promised not to do it again; he really loves me (yes, this one keeps going forever).

As soon as I [insert one of the stupid things he tells you is wrong with you, and how he claims you can make it better] he’ll stop acting like this and everything will go back to what it was before.

babycakes
wrote on July 28 2009 @ 09:39 pm: [report]

I was sexually abused as a young girl by a person my parents willingly invited into our house and it wasn’t until months later that I was able to admit to my parents what was happening.
He told me that I was the one doing something wrong and that my parents would be really mad at me if I told them. Who knows how long it would have lasted if my parents hadn’t stood up for me.

Parents- take a stand and show your children that abuse is not excusable, no matter how minor.

bepeat
wrote on July 28 2009 @ 09:46 pm: [report]

Yes, frisked and ahw have it exactly right! I volunteer with a domestic violence shelter/support agency, and their posts shed much light on the issue—when you’re in the middle of an abusive relationship, the choices aren’t always black-and-white.

The social services available for women getting out of abusive relationships aren’t all that good. Shelters are overcrowded, and at times women have to leave onto the streets. If they can find an apartment, it’s often too small for her and her children, poorly maintained, and in a neighborhood where they’re surrounded by drugs and gangs. Her options for jobs are often limited, especially since her abuser may have prevented her from working and/or screwed up previous jobs for her so she doesn’t have a solid work history. Her credit history, too, is often ruined, because her abuser is no more responsible with finances than with anything else in his life. He and his friends may be looking for her with violent intent; things like the Internet, GPS tracking technology, and careless friends and family members make it easy for him to find her. Her friends and family members may be fed up with the situation, and offer her little or no support; the family may itself be abusive or dysfunctional, or believe that her relationship is “a woman’s place in life”. She may have turned to drugs or alcohol as a means of coping with her situation, or her abuser may have forced her into drug addiction. The courts may require that her children be allowed regular visitation with their father, putting her at risk, giving him leverage to use against her, and making her fear for their safety. It goes on and on.

Yes, many women face these difficult odds and win against them. But it’s NOT easy, especially when they’re also suffering from depression, PTSD, and other psychological effects of the trauma. (And mental health services for people who can’t afford to pay full price for them are poor or non-existent.) Many women stay with their abuser, or go back to their abuser, when they believe that’s the only option available to them; they sacrifice themselves in order to keep their children fed, clothed, and housed. We all know people who’ve succeeded in escaping an abusive situation, but when you consider all the details and difficulties involved in getting away, how hard is it to understand why others may stay or return?

One last point… in talking to women who do manage to get out of abusive situations, one of the most common themes is that “someone supported them unconditionally”, “someone was there for them”. It only takes one person, suspending judgment and simply being there, to make the difference. Instead of asking abused women why they stay, ask yourself why you can’t be that person.

bepeat
wrote on July 28 2009 @ 09:53 pm: [report]

Oh, and I do apologize for the gender-specific language. I write it that way because most abusers are men and most survivors are women, but most is NOT the same as all; women can be abusers and men can be abused! I don’t have as much insight into that situation because I don’t often see it, but I can imagine that the obstacles faced by an abused man are significant and severe. Support services are harder to find, cultural pressures are more intense, so family and friends become all the more important.

seraphmaiden
wrote on July 29 2009 @ 11:00 am: [report]

Judy~ such a fantastically written article. I’m really impressed by the personal strength it must have taken to have written it.

DancingGeek
wrote on July 29 2009 @ 08:45 pm: [report]

@rowdygirl- it was 21 years for me- I became so desensitized to verbal assaults, insults and criticism the past year has been a lot of me asking myself why I didn’t see it. It didn’t really help that the people close to me didn’t say anything until years later. NOT that you’ll listen when you’re 22 and think you’re in love.

Here to lend an ear if you need it.

krissyxoo18
wrote on July 30 2009 @ 02:37 am: [report]

honestly girls you should just leave him hes a disgrace to all the good guys on this planet give them a chance not him.

Dreaming
wrote on July 30 2009 @ 10:59 am: [report]

It’s been my experience that “why?” often comes from fear and a misplaced sense of guilt.  This question undoubtedly hurts, even if the victim has lef the situation.  Trust me, I *hate* being asked this question.  Simply put, I don’t know why.  No, Parent, you didn’t abuse me while I grew up and I don’t blame you.  No, Friend, I don’t think something in my child hood led to this, or that I thought I deserved to be treated this way.  Abuse is insidious.  I was raised to respect myself and never allow someone to treat me that way.  Had he started out early on treating my like that, I probably wouldn’t have stayed.  But he didn’t start out that way.  He started out by slowing tearing down my self worth, gradually pushing away my friends, and moving me away from my family so that I would have no support structure.  I’m not weak.  I don’t know why I allowed it to continue.  But I do know why I made it end and why I will always watch and work to prevent myself from falling in that situation again.  If you know someone in this situation, don’t let the abuser push you away or cut them off from you.  Don’t let your fears and discomforts make the victim feel even worse.  Instead, let them know you love them, support them, and will be ready to do whatever you can to help them when they decide to make it stop.

Spyrosis
wrote on July 30 2009 @ 08:17 pm: [report]

I’ve actually been trying to comment on this site for 20 minutes but the registration process kept putting another step in my way - dear Frisky - tell your developers that this loses users. That said this is a great piece of writing - I can’t stress that enough. In regards to the comments about the men in abusive relationships - yeah ok I went out with some crazy women that tried to emasculate me or manipulate me or make my life miserable and in a few cases even got physical.  I’m 6’5” 220 lbs.  She was 5’ nothing and I’m not sure what she weighed.  There is a HUGE difference. OK there are some physically weak men and some physically strong women but the majority of the time it is women getting the lumps.  Asking them why they stay is nothing more than rubbernecking.  Does why they stay really matter?  Sometimes it’s fear, sometimes desperation and believe it or not, sometimes they actually do love the bastards inflicting the violence.  Someone made an analogy to addiction and how they couldn’t “help” their friend and they watched this person kill themselves.  I have a friend in recovery who once said that when he was arrested for dealing, the cops actually saved his life because he would have been dead if he continued his behavior.  His wife called the cops on him because she loved him and didn’t want him to die - even if it meant he went to prison.  So ask yourself - if you saw some #&@$% beating a child or a cat on the street - you’d do something right?  You’d call a cop or even intervene yourself - of course you would. You would do this even if you suspected violence against a toddler or a puppy. Why is it then, in so many cases when a woman is getting slapped around we hear of people doing nothing.  Because she’s an adult?  Because she should know better? That isn’t easy to answer either - it’s everything from “it’s not my problem” to “I don’t need the hassle of getting involved” to “she deserves it” as horrible as that sounds - yes I believe there are degenerates out there that still believe that line of thinking, but it doesn’t matter.  If your neighbor is constantly coming over to borrow sugar with broken teeth and black eyes, call a #&@$% cop. If you see someone beating anyone call a cop. If you made a mistake - oh well - it’s still better than knowing that the cop you didn’t call, didn’t keep that person from being injured, maimed, raped or killed. And as far as restraining orders do nothing yadda yadda yadda - you know what does nothing more than restraining orders?  Doing nothing.

grneyedbethy
wrote on July 31 2009 @ 10:13 am: [report]

I recently left a man after he hit me one time. And i have had countless women tell me that we should have gone to counseling and work it out. I think people who want to judge will judge no matter what your decision is. Abuse isnt about the person hurting you its about him CONTROLLING you. Leaving takes a lot of courage and so does staying. WHY as women cant we just support each other???

algy29
wrote on August 3 2009 @ 07:01 pm: [report]

Good article, good for you for getting out. 

I was wondering if anyone knew of any resources for emotionally abusive relationships.  I have come to the point in my relationship where after years of being emotional abused that included being put down, told I was worthless, and basically handed a script for phone calls and interactions with my friends and family and I have realized I need to get out.  I have a son, so I also have to somehow come up with the money for a divorce.  I called the national hotline for domestic violence and they directed me locally, but I keep running into reasons why they can’t help me because I’m not being physically abused.  My husband won’t leave the house (for work or anything else productive) and I am only allowed to leave for work.  I left early one day to secretly open my own checking account and he called and texted the whole time calling me a fat f**k and asking where I was and why.  I made up an excuse then but he can tell when I’m lying.  I tried to reach out to a legal service, but they emailed me some forms and he found them, read them, and replied that I no longer needed the service. Then he started being super nice and telling me how good I had it and how 90% of our relationship is his fault but I deserve it because of my 10%.
I tried to leave and he threatened to call the cops and tell them I had kidnapped my son so they would come looking for me. I got scared and went back because the lawyer I called said he needed $500 before he could do anything and I was better off to go back considering what my husband was threatening to do.

Leo
wrote on August 3 2009 @ 07:23 pm: [report]

@ grneyedbethy.  From my perspective as a man I think you’ve got it right about the controlling behavior and you made the right immediate decision.  Once should be it, no second chances, no counseling.  Once he’s tried it and gotten away with it, he both knows your lower limit for control, and he’ll experiment with raising the level each and every additional chance you give him.  My wife has joked that the angriest she ever saw me get was once when I threw a towel on the ground while trying to repair an uncooperative automobile.  My rule for my daughter will be:  If he’s aiming for you, once is it.  If he’s aiming for something else (like the car) and hits you accidently, give him one break; if he “accidently” hits you a second time while aiming for the car (or whatever), it was no accident – you’re outta there girl!

Gingee
wrote on August 4 2009 @ 09:04 am: [report]

I would probably want to know:

Why did the gal choose to stay, because I did not and do not understand how any female can love a man who can hurt her.

wawmama
wrote on August 4 2009 @ 09:22 am: [report]

@algy29 I know what you’re going through, I had the same problem with legal aid…It was like, “oh, he’s not smacking you around, he’ll pay child support once in a blue moon, um, look for some one else lady.” There is a legal service that charges a monthly fee, but they’re more helpful, and the lawyers on it will work on a payment plan. Their number is 1-800-323-4620. I also recommend looking for meet up groups in your area, also, document when he threatens you or abuses you in a spreadsheet or a daily planner… Good luck.

Judy McGuire
wrote on August 4 2009 @ 11:08 am: [report]

I am blown away by the moving, sometimes horrifying, always thoughtful comments this piece received. Thank you.

algy29, I am so sorry to hear you’re going through this. I don’t have any magic answers, but I would really suggest you be extremely careful and contact a family member to ask for help if it’s at all possible. Document any and every threat he makes. Try other domestic violence organizations—you’re being emotionally and financially abused—and that often turns physical when the abusive partner senses you’re about to get away. So please exercise extreme caution.

Sofjna
wrote on August 4 2009 @ 11:09 am: [report]

@Gingee- it’s not always about staying because of love, sometimes it’s because of fear; if he’s crazy enough to enjoy/laugh about repeatedly raping and abusing me, then just maybe he’s crazy enough to slit my throat if I ever leave like he promised.  Plus, I was 15 and didn’t really know how to leave because I didn’t want to tell anyone what was heppening.

Gingee
wrote on August 4 2009 @ 03:50 pm: [report]

Dear Sofjna:

You were a child.

Adult women have choices, and not leaving an abuser is a CHOICE.

What I said, I meant. I do not understand how any woman can love another man but not love herself enough to defend herself. The jerk has to sleep sometime.  Any gal who still has the instinct of self-survival would wait until he’s sleeping and just kill him.

She might have to do a few years in jail, but that is surely better than an eternity as worm food.

joyy
wrote on August 4 2009 @ 03:58 pm: [report]

@Gingee - You don’t know what anyone’s experience is like except your own. If you’ve never been in an abusive relationship, it’s probably best that you not speculate about what it’s like.

Coral
wrote on August 4 2009 @ 04:10 pm: [report]

@Gingee: The problem is a woman does not love herself enough. And for many, a man’s supposed love for her (even if he is abusing her) is a surrogate or replacement for the love she does not have for herself. But in turn, it’s a vicious cycle to be in.

Gingee
wrote on August 4 2009 @ 05:57 pm: [report]

My experience is thusly:  Watched my mother chose men who would abuse her.

Watched, as a child, as a neighbor was beaten by her drunken husband, until the day she was waiting with a knife, and used it on him. Norma went to court, told the judge that the husband would come home boozed up and beat her, she was tired of it, and next time she’d slice him open on the other side.  Judge let her go home.

Watched my step-daughter choose an abuser.  I know her entire history and her family, she was loved and cherished, smart, college educated, employed, AND independently wealthy.  Yet she CHOSE to stay with the abuser, for a while.  Eventually, she evolved.

My personal experience:  One guy hit me once. I shared my feelings. 

I do believe that it is better to do time in the Hotel with Bars, than to be in ones grave.

pornqueen
wrote on August 5 2009 @ 03:12 pm: [report]

I complete understand why is so difficult and sometimes impossible to answer these type of questions.  I am fortunate to have been able to walk away form an abusive relationship years ago.  I promised myself that I will never put myself in that position and thank God I have not.  I did however came very close…he raised his hand and all hell broke loose after that.  I screamed, yelled, hollered, called the Police, his parents, his boss, friends, my parents, my friends, my BIG brother and they took care of it.  What this taught me is that the more people know about it the better the chances of you not staying in that relationship.  All these people will somehow help you get out of it, either by just listening, having a room ready when you finally take the step, beating him up (not recommended but….), even if they nag about it, all of this helps, at leat it helped me.  So just get it out there, it does truly help!
Finally, I agree with Gingee’s last statement, 100%!!!

Coral
wrote on August 5 2009 @ 03:23 pm: [report]

@Gingee and pornqueen: “I do believe that it is better to do time in the Hotel with Bars, than to be in ones grave.”

Why yes, I do thoroughly believe with this statement, I also believe that it is better for abusers to receive proper help and therapy over jail time. People can be helped and they are not helped when they go to jail. It’s simply a time out before they are released back into the streets. And think of it this way. I myself having been in many types of abusive relationships, in a way I continued to abuse myself (I’m NOT saying it was my fault), and that is how I dealt with my pain and suffering. And abusers on the other hand continue to abuse in the same way that victims engage in these vicious cycle. Abusers have always had troubles and suffering that plagues them as well. Now of course, abusers have responsibilities and deserve punishments. But don’t you think, that on behalf of society, abusers deserve a fair second chance to make better and to get the therapy they need? Because after jail time, they still have the chance to hurt others.

TrocarQueen105
wrote on August 7 2009 @ 06:22 pm: [report]

This reminds me of the poor woman (Was Kitty her name?) who was murdered in broad daylight while people in their houses watched her suffer and listened to her screams. Her attacker fled the scene at least twice, afraid her screams would draw attention and police, before finally killing her. How could such a thing be allowed to happen? Isn’t there a law against that?
But there is no law that punishes someone for not doing something with the exception of taxes. It seems that when you’re in a crowd of people they all assume someone else will step forward or that they don’t want to be involved with something dangerous and potentially embarrassing. My teacher once told me something that rang very true: “When your car breaks down where do you want to be? Do you want to be on the shoulder of a busy highway or a country road where few cars will come by? You want to be on that country road because you know that one person that finally comes through will stop because they know there is no one near to help. Those on the highway will continue their business because they believe someone else will take the responsibility.” My uncle is an abuser yet he is on his second wife. My family did nothing to save his first wife whom he horribly abused and I resent them for it. His son is now the same as his father (and his father is the same as my grandmother’s first husband). It’s a cycle that is hard to break. I think “why” needs to be asked after the situation has passed so you can find out what made you stay and how you can not fix but maybe fortify yourself in that area so you no longer will be a victim. Don’t bother with it during the abuse or you’re wasting time. Support and understanding are needed more than constant questioning.

Titaniumhalos
wrote on August 12 2009 @ 02:39 pm: [report]

I don’t think “Why” is an appropriate question. The abuser feeds on the weaknesses and insecurieties we harbor. They spread them out, tell you your nothing, and then hit you and tell you it’s YOUR fault. We as humans are adaptive, after a while of being told the same thing over and over again, we start to believe it. So the question is not “Why?” the question is why didn’t anyone around intervene. If I saw someone hit my mother or daughter, there would be no more abuser. I would gladly go to jail over that.

P.S. Women are fix-it fairies. Not because we’re tarts, but because most of the time we are thinking with our hearts, we think we can fix them. This isn’t the case.

Gingee
wrote on August 12 2009 @ 03:31 pm: [report]

We CAN fix them, abusers. All it takes is a dose of lead poisoning.

Two shots to the head, and the abuser is permanently fixed.

Even the abused women know or should know this.

As for that bit about bieng told ‘you are nothing’:

This gal would look at the abuser and ask,

“If I am so low, what does that make YOU?”

I’m not buying this Abuser/Abused stuff. I believe that they fight because they are bored.

Someone, somewhere, once wrote that we tend to find our psychological equivalent in mates. If that is true, the better thing to do is to respect those choices.

Women who can’t say no choose men who won’t let go. Gavin De Becker.

Maybe it is time to thin the herd and focus on the strongest members of the species.

Casey Lee
wrote on August 13 2009 @ 10:35 am: [report]

In response to Alphabete’s post regarding the choices of people in this situation, I would argue that they in fact DON’T have a choice. Most, if not all, of the time, the abuser has convinced them that they have nowhere else to go, nobody else to turn to. This might not be true, but they BELIEVE it to be true, and that amounts to the same thing. Are you actually trying to claim that these people are choosing to live in terror every day of their lives? That is an ignorant stance to take, and I doubt that you have really experienced the horror of this situation if you can put that out there for all the world to see.

Pat from Madison
wrote on August 13 2009 @ 11:48 pm: [report]

If you really want an answer to the question “Why?”, the answer is operant conditioning. Abusers are past masters at training their victims….but first let’s talk about me as a victim. In my “family of origin” my function was to please others. I was to take care of everyone else and my worth was measured on how well I pleased people who didn’t want to be pleased. It doesn’t take an advanced degree in psychology to figure out why an abusive relationship held appeal….it was all that I knew.

When I met him, he adored me. Everything I said was clever, nothing I did displeased him, no favor was so great that it wasn’t his pure pleasure to fulfill it. Then I angered him…I really don’t know how… it was probably a transgression so small that no one else would notice, but he became extraordinarily angry, then violent, and I got scared. He instantly became penitent. And life went back to the way it was before…and although I didn’t realize it at the time, the training had begun. I quickly learned to watch him carefully for any sign of displeasure to prevent him from becoming angry.

Then the next phase of my training began….by this time I had committed a terrible crime. I delivered two daughters in quick succession, when he had ordered boys. He insisted that I have a blood test to determine the sex of the children before they were born. He dropped by for an hour or two after each of them were born. He withdrew affection and approval of any kind and ignored my daughters, like they were a pair of kittens that he didn’t much like, but amused me so he put up with them.

I worked hard to convince the man who I adored that he could love my daughters….and me again. I “took the pressure of adjustment” off him at therapist suggestions. Marital and family therapists wanted to work with me, because I was the distraught one, and thought he was “okay. They treated my “anxiety” and consoled him for dealing with such a needy wife. Now that he had me exactly where he wanted me, the control issues started. I wasn’t to have a car, or cash, or friends. My job was not as important as his. I had to live within 15 minutes of where we lived…to fulfill that demand, I took admin assistant jobs and then he derided me for not earning my share. He couldn’t be trusted to look after the girls. They would end up hurt.

To bring this to its ugly conclusion….I rebelled.I insisted that I would take back my paycheck, work where I damn well pleased and finish my education. He withdrew all affection and my belongings began to get broken or disappear….one time, while I was making funeral arrangements for my brother, he threw out one of every pair of shoes I owned. There were other abuses, including physical and I was preparing to leave, but he had just begun to form a relationahip with his daughters, and after all their rejection, I couldn’t deprive them of that relationship….until….

One night I found out that he was molesting my daughters, and then I found out a lot worse. I confronted him and again he tried the whole penitent thing again…right up until I dialed 911. He is just about to get out after serving 8 years in prison.

The girls and I did get therapy and if I sound like I have a fairly good grip on life, you can thank all the people who showed up to help and remind me that I am a good person, not judge. I am living halfway across the country now, to get away from those persons, including family, who were embarrassed, or appalled.

Oh, and the girls….one is studying to be a physician’s assistant and sets appropriate limits in her relationships…but she has relationships. The other is in a good relationship with a guy who seems to respect her and treat her well. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

alphabete
wrote on August 15 2009 @ 06:48 pm: [report]

@Casey Lee: You clearly are assuming things.  I spent 18 years of my life living in an abusive household that I had no legal means to escape from as a child.  Just because I am not ashamed not to be weak and not ashamed to say that nobody forces a woman into an abusive relationship and nobody forces her to the altar and nobody forces her to forgive him the first and second and fifth times he hits her and then gives her flowers, doesn’t mean I don’t know what I’m talking about.  I spent years asking my mother why she didn’t leave, asking her why we had to suffer because she wanted us to have a dad so much that she felt whatever she was giving up was worth it.

Don’t presume that I don’t know something, and if you want to know why my opinions are so strong it’s because of that.  My upbringing, where I was unable to escape, where my siblings and I were forced to eat dog food and deal with chronic mistreatment.  The friends of ours who say things like “If I leave him how will I find someone who makes as much money as he does and keep up my lifestyle?” and “Please stop calling the police, and sorry you can hear my screams in your bedroom at night.”

So, really, I feel for abused women.  I know how it is to feel like you have no choice, but I also know what it is like to HAVE no choice.  Sure if my mom had said “This guy’s a dick.  I’m not going to marry him.” we wouldn’t even be having this discussion because I wouldn’t be here, but on the other hand I wouldn’t have had to grow up in a home where the one person who had the power to walk out didn’t, and let her three children grow up in hell.

Pat from Madison
wrote on August 16 2009 @ 12:20 pm: [report]

Alphabete:

Please try to access your compassion. I was a parent who allowed her children to be abused - Every moment of that abuse I was working hard to fix the problem. I just didn’t succeed. I thought that I really was the problem and if I could only do better, the problem would end. The fact that you still blame your mother for what your father did speaks volumes. I feel for her. In the end, a woman who wanted so desparately to be loved is hated by both her husband and her child. If my husband hadn’t exceeded all my excuses and exhausted all my hopes by venturing into child sexual abuse, no doubt I would still be in that horrible marriage. I can only hope that my children will be more forgiving.

lawyrgrl
wrote on August 16 2009 @ 05:50 pm: [report]

@ Pat from Madison   I applaud your strength in admitting what happened.  I was a child in the same situation and my mother never once admitted her complicity in the abuse - even though she literally held me down for my father to hit and deflected his ire at her onto me numerous times by telling him I had a bad grade or had not done a chore when he started to hit her.  It worked quite well.  She would be left free to stand back and watch the fist swinging toward me instead of her.

Needless to say, there is no love there.  Perhaps the relationship could have been saved if she ever apologized or even admitted any sort of responsibility but she died last year without ever doing so.  I ran away at age 17 and we barely spoke for the last 25 years of her life.  Whenever we did it was a litany of how hard life was for HER.  Apparently a grown woman and mother of 3 was, to her mind, more vulnerable to cruelty than a little girl. 

I urge you to do everything in your power to make amends to your children.  Please understand that they likely will bear a great deal of ill will toward you and that only you have the power to fix things with them.  I would have given the world if my mother had even tried.  I send good thoughts to you and your children and genuinely hope that your situation will be the exact opposite of mine.

Pat from Madison
wrote on August 17 2009 @ 08:11 pm: [report]

lawyrgrl:

Please do not misunderstand. The minute that I found out that my girls were being abused, I put an end to it. When I say that I allowed them to be abused, I mean that I did not know what was going on and modeled the behavior of trying to “manage” their father’s behavior instead of just removing myself from it. I cannot think of an excuse for the level of abuse that you endured although I too had physically abusive parents. I have found a way to let them be who they are without having to be angry anymore because as you found out….an apology isn’t coming.

As for my girls and I, there are no apologies required here. They know that I would have cheerfully killed or have been killed to prevent what happened to them. I know that whatever they did with their father, it was done in the context of threat, or viscious punishment. My only mistake was assuming that I was the only one being abused. For that, their forgiveness will not help. I can never forgive myself. The only thing they can do for me is to survive and thrive. Focus on their own lives. Succeed beyond all expectations and .....be happy…..I also ask that they leave their minds open to the possibility of forgiving him someday. Not for his sake, but for their own. Hate wears you out. It sucks all the joy from life. It keeps you tied to the abuse. My advice to them is the same as I give to you. Your parents and mine lacked the grace to ask forgiveness. I wish you the grace to forgive anyway.

OtherSide
wrote on November 2 2009 @ 05:32 pm: [report]

Hmm! The author has been watching too much Oprah and the “Quack” Dr. Phil.  Reality says violence between the sexes is a 50-50 proposition Despite what the father of the Violence Against Women ONLY Act (VAWOA) says (Joe “the plagiarizer” Biden and domestic violence shelters throughout this nation try to imply. Case in point: “New Hope for Women ( a so-called domestic violence shelter located in Maine) reports that 85 percent of intimate partner violence is male-on-female, the New Hope Community Educator Ellie Hutchinson said that data only reflects the incidents that are reported. “She encouraged anyone in need of assistance — male or female — to call the 24-hour New Hope hotline.

Huh! Unless a man just fell off a turnip truck, reading the above statement…does anyone really think New Hope for Women is going to really aid a male victim of domestic violence?

As someone whose youngest sister (age 24) was brutally murdered in Boston in 1989 by her boyfriend (who coincidentally bears the same first name as mine)is a continuing terrible tragedy to this day. The crime was due to the fact that she simply wanted to leave him! That sad event led me to believe I knew something about the horrific effects of domestic violence upon the family.  But I was WRONG!  It wasn’t until that I myself was falsely accused of domestic violence and run out of my home and cut off from our daughter with no chance of a defense that I discovered *LIES, MANIPULATION and DECEPTION are very important tools used within the so-called “?justice?” system and those employed in the domestic violence Indu$try.

Whereas any woman can claim abuse and she is automatically believed more than 100% of the time no matter what ...resulting in a husband/boyfriend being run out of the home and cut off from the children and being subject to arrest.  The “day in court” results in the fact that the man is guilty until proven guilty without any recourse.  Yes, it is stated that lady justice is blind ...blind to the fact that there is TWO sides to every story.

Women Never commit domestic violence:

Clara Harris (Texas)gets custody of kids after murdering her husband.

Susan Smith kills her children.

Mary Winkler-gets custody of kids after murdering her husband.
\ Last year (2008) Boston woman murders her own brother because he left toilet seat up.
\ Debra Lafave - RAPES male student. Too pretty to be put in jail.

Seattle woman cuts her six year old daughter’s head off!

North Carolina woman hurls her newborn infant across the room during an argument with her boyfriend.

Just this past week - woman tries to kill her husband in his sleep!

Yes, indeed.  Women are not capable of any type of domestic violence! Just ask Joe!

Gingee
wrote on November 3 2009 @ 11:16 am: [report]

Should we ask men why they stay?  If one is going to presume that women have no choice but tu stay with an abuser, then why are the Shapers of Society not excusing the men; for example:

“Can we not point to his childhood, his insecurities, his shaky identity, his addiction to control, and say that his behavior is determined by a syndrome and is beyond his choice?”

EastCoastMale
wrote on November 3 2009 @ 11:21 am: [report]

It is definitely a complex issue but, to effectively deal with the situation, I dont think it should be a question of why you stayed (past tense) but rather why are you still with him/her if it is still going on. If it is a situation of healing and letting it all out and the person is no longer in the abusive relationship, it is pretty hard to try to help or understand without asking why they stayed because that provides the reasoning that person used.

katiedid
wrote on November 3 2009 @ 11:51 am: [report]

You have met the man of your dreams…  He is tender and loving and everything you thought you ever wanted or needed.

Until…  one day, something goes wrong.  You have made him angry or emasculated him by some unknowing act (like asking him in front of a friend if he needs hair gel from the store).

Everything changes.  You are now the enemy.  You are beaten and cursed and told all of the ways that you are worthless. 

Afterwards, you are in shock.  How did this happen - to YOU? 

Then the apologies come.  He doesn’t know what happened, so sorry, tears flow from the eyes of the one that you love so much.  Somehow, you start to feel guilty.  He is good.  It must be my fault. 

Life goes on afterwards and you forgive believing that it was a one-time thing.  And then it happens again.  And again, you feel guilty and try to be a better wife/gf and you forgive. 

You begin to lie to your friends and family about the bruises and about how you are so clumsy.

In the end, when you think about leaving - you are drowning in thoughts that it is your fault, your friends and family will hate you and won’t trust you because you lied. 

You feel like you have nowhere to turn.  He is a master of understanding how guilt and isolation work.

You stay.

I am very thankful that one day, I didn’t stay.  I left.  It took me several years to break the mental hold that my abuser had - but I did it. 

You can too.  Be careful - but get out.

TrishNYC777
wrote on November 3 2009 @ 03:48 pm: [report]

I’ve had my hand broken, black eyes, bruises, lumps, split lip,scratches, chunk of hair ripped out of my head, even abuse to my dog (who was then a puppy).  I thought it was me and that I was the cause of why he took it out on me.  Eventually, one night, he beat me up horribly bad and then decided to call the cops on me.  I was mortifed, shocked.  Just seconds ago my head was being repeatedly bashed into the hard wood floor and I was being choked as he called me a “#&@$% B*tch”.  I kept thinking “He is going to kill me” as tears fell down my face and the grip of his hands tightened around my neck.  When the police got to my apartment they took one look at me.  A female officer said “Why do you let him do this to you?”  The words hit me in the face, yet I thought I loved him and could change him.  He spent the night in jail, called my apartment to threaten my about signing a statement of what happened.  The best thing that happened was the state issued a restraining order for two weeks for him to stay away.  In the first couple of days I wanted so badly to see him and be with him.  Then I started to realize what I was doing to myself.  I discovered self worth and confidence and I left.  He came home to an empty apartment, his clothes in garbage bags and a lease that I had broke out of.  I escaped.  He called me and even had the nerve to email my mother a few weeks back wishing her a happy birthday 7 months after what last incurred.  My mother’s words to me were- “He used my daughter as a punching bag and has the nerve to contact me?”  He was a sick person and I am a survivor.  I am reminded at times of what I endured but I can breathe a sigh of relief that I survived and escaped a possible death sentence.

Gingee
wrote on November 3 2009 @ 05:34 pm: [report]

My GalPals and I have some educational goals, it seems.

Met a nice enough guy last year.  Things were smooth for a few months.  Then Big Fella came home, in a snit, something to do with his job.

He started shouting.  I was out the door and gone before he could finish the third word.  Never looked back. 

The ONLY time anyone is going to raise his voice with me is to be heard over the noise.

This is not negotiable.

Pat from Madison
wrote on November 4 2009 @ 10:04 am: [report]

Dear OtherSide:

You need help. The anger and hate in the posting is startling. It is not possible to lose custody of a child merely based on a lie. There has to be something else involved. Your out of place anger might be at least part of that “something else”. In a thread about victims you insert a lot of issues that are not germain to the topic and do it with considerable heat. You have a lot of hostility to express and explore. Why not seek some appropriate counseling venue before all that anger gets you into trouble?