Girl Talk: How I Got Stuck In A Job Interview Straight Out Of The “Mad Men” Era
Posted by: Jenn Thompson
Filed in:
entertainment
9:15AM, Monday August 10th 2009
It’s one thing to switch on the TV for “Mad Men” each week, vicariously sip whiskey and smoke stogies with Don Draper and Co., and experience (or re-experience) life in the 1960s. I, like most other women in America, jumped at the chance to give my look a makeover complete with red lips, the pencil skirts, the swooping coifs, and the tight cardigans that give Joan, Betty, and Peggy their sexy, vintage sizzle. Hell, I even found myself harboring the urge to tie on a frilly apron and bake something wholesome for my husband. It’s fun, escapist even, to dabble in outdated social stereotypes and play the victim to those womanizing ways that dominated the “Mad Men” era. We’re safe in the knowledge that times have changed, and we can go back to being empowered, successful, respected alpha-females whenever we feel like it. Or so I thought.
Not long ago, I went on a job interview so anachronistic, patronizing, and inappropriate that I actually found myself looking around the office for a hidden camera, thinking surely I was the subject of some sort of reality show about gender equality. It was “Mad Men” come to life, and it wasn’t entertaining.
- I was greeted in the conference room by the founder and co-owner of the company. I stood to shake his hand, and he gave me the most disgusting, limp fish of a handshake I’ve ever felt. I tried not to make a face.
- He gave me a brief synopsis of what the “girl” who previously held this position (which was listed as “Marketing Director” in the job posting) had been responsible for, and how it was different from what the “girl” before her had done. It became obvious that the only reason I had been called in for this interview was because I was a female whose graduation year suggested I was under the age of 30.
- I was informed the “girl” they let go was terminated because she was “too professional in social settings and didn’t know when to turn it on and when to turn it off.” I nodded, working through the possible implications of that, as he continued. “I mean, if you are the sort of girl who, when you are out with a client, and he reaches over and puts his hand on your knee—well, if that sort of thing is really going to offend you, then this isn’t the right job for you.” Ahh, so that is what he meant. Fabulous.
- I was treated to a 10-minute lecture on “how to do business.” This included choice phrases like, “I’m gonna let you in on a secret, little lady,” and, “The real deals get made during social hour with a few drinks and some buttons undone.”
- He expressed his “hesitation” over the fact that I was married. “How is your husband going to feel about you being out on nights and weekends entertaining male clients?” Normally, I would have responded that my husband would be fine with it, as he supports my career and understands the time commitment that it requires, but I would assume that “entertaining clients” wouldn’t involve anything concerning my cleavage, thighs, or self-respect. That didn’t seem to be a safe assumption here, so I chose to dodge the question and steer conversation to my previous work experience.
- I mentioned that I have a strong background in journalism and public relations. I asked what sort of PR they have in place, and if they’d be interested in increasing their public exposure. “Well,” he replied, “I have been wanting to start a company newsletter. I would take care of the technical stuff, of course, but you gals could be responsible for the other stuff. You know, the babies, and the birthdays, and a recipe of the month. You could also give it a cute theme each month. You know, like pumpkins in October, turkeys in November, Christmas trees in December…” He went on to give me possible theme suggestions for all 12 months. All. Twelve. Months.
- He revealed, rather grandly, that the position I was applying for came with a company car. “However, the car is equipped with a GPS, so if you go and park at Bed Bath and Beyond and go shopping for three hours, or go home to watch soap operas in the middle of the day, we are going to know. If you don’t leave the house in the morning until 10 a.m. because you had to watch ‘Regis and Kelly,’ we are going to know that, too.”
- He mentioned that for the first six months to a year, the position of “marketing girl” would be doubling as his personal assistant. “What I really need there is someone who can run out to my house if I forget something, or if I’ve got the lawn guy or the cable guy coming or something.” Lest I start to feel undervalued by having to split my time between two jobs, he let me know: “Eventually I’ll get a separate full-time assistant, and if you’ve been doing a good job, I’d let you apply for that when it becomes available.” Oh, would you please?
- Surprisingly, he said that he really wanted the person in this marketing position to possess ambition and drive. Just when I had started to think perhaps I had judged him too harshly, he clarified, “I don’t know why, but it seems like some women start making a good amount of money, and then they decide they want to have babies and start a family, and their eye isn’t on the ball anymore, and then they are no longer useful to us.” Apparently, I hadn’t been judging harshly enough.
- In closing, he informed me that round two of the interview process would take place during a cocktail lunch at the local country club so he could see “how you girls interact during social hour.” I found myself trying to imagine what kind of self-respecting female would agree, after having sat through round one, to attend round two. Then I tried to imagine a group of such females battling one another to prove who could toe the line between professional marketing director and professional sex worker most adeptly.
I stood, I smiled, I shook his hand again and tried desperately to ignore the fact that he said his parting line directly to my chest: “Well I look forward to seeing you again soon for round two.”
I did get the call inviting me to round two. Sheer curiosity almost led me to accept, but the modern 21st-century woman inside me wouldn’t allow it. The 30 minutes I had spent in that time warp were more than enough to make me painfully aware of the social hindrances my gender has overcome in the last five decades, and I am in no hurry to revisit the reality of the past anytime soon. So, no offense, “Mad Men,” but while I’m going to keep working pencil skirts and vintage pumps into my wardrobe, I no longer think there is anything glamorous about your sexual politics.
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Arsenic
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 09:09 am: [report]
Jesus christ, what company is this? Did you report him?
Erin G
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 09:56 am: [report]
Please report them, because this is the nonsense that keeps women making cents on the dollar, and receiving little to no respect.
Goldfinch86
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 11:00 am: [report]
Yes please report them as the others have said, this kind of thing is what makes it impossible for women to move up in companies, where old-#&@$% still run the company because god forbid they don’t like being molested at the bar to get a deal done.
Raugiel
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 11:11 am: [report]
There are more companies like this out there than I think any of us would like to admit. But the best thing we can do is what Jenn did - deprive them of your intelligence and excellent work and find a job somewhere better.
*sam*
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 11:12 am: [report]
WTF!?!?!
One Big Voice
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 11:36 am: [report]
Yep, the old boys club is still going in some places. I think she missed an opportunity for mischief, by not going to the country club, though. Might have even taught a lesson or two, while enjoying a drink on the d-bag’s dime!
becknee
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 11:38 am: [report]
Holy moley - yes, deprive them of your intelligence and excellent work, but also call the Better Business Bureau!
Lilypie
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 12:11 pm: [report]
I’m speechless.
MissChaotic
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 12:28 pm: [report]
Report that #&@$%. If not, give me his name and his company info so I can.
GreenAura
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 12:56 pm: [report]
My worst job interview wasn’t nearly the sick caliber of this one, but it was still bad. I work as an office admin for construction, 5 years for a housing developer. Well, we moved out of state and I went job searching. An ad that I responded too said “Job Developer” and I assumed it was for some sort of development firm. I received the call back and went in for the interview.
When I showed up, I had to ring a doorbell on a building and the man that answered was wearing a cast on his arm. He locked the door behind us. As we walked through the building, I noticed that him and I were the only ones in the entire building. So we sat down in a semi dark room, no windows, one door and began the interview. He told me that the “job developer” was actually a position in which I was to help develop job skills for FORMER VIOLENT FELONS. That’s right, violent felons. He said that I would be having to go to different businesses and “sell” a newly released felon to a company. He said that he needed a female to do it because “men just don’t have legs that look good in skirts” WHAAA?!?!
So then he tells me that I would need to do anything and everything I could to get these guys jobs because my hourly pay wasn’t much, so I would need to make it up in commission. The more felons that got hired, the more $$ I make. Then he says that I would need to stay in close, personal contact with these felons up to a year after they start a new job… meaning they were to have my personal cell # and I should take them to lunch every now and then to “encourage them” in their new positions. I don’t even know what my responses to him were, because I was shell shocked over what was happening.
We he called me for a second interview (he said it was between me and one other girl), I lied and said I accepted another position. I feel awful for whoever ended up with that job.
rebelchanteuse
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 02:46 pm: [report]
oh, i *so* wish you had gone to the country club, accompanied by a hidden camera (and an arsenal of good come-back lines).
that said, thank you for sharing this horrific experience. i’m job-hunting, and it’s very helpful to learn just how misogynistic the professional world can still be.
rebelchanteuse
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 02:48 pm: [report]
actually, your post just reminded me that when i was interviewing right out of undergrad, i was actually told that though i was the most qualified for a job, i didn’t stand a chance because i was too “young-looking and pretty”. ick.
bethylane
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 03:44 pm: [report]
This makes me sick!!!!!
The only experience I’ve had that has been remotely similar was when I went to interview for a job with Amtrak last week.
I got one of those limp-fish handshakes as well.
Prior to the interview, I had to go in for an aptitude test. The only other people applying for the conductor job were 30-something men.
So here I go, age 21, into my interview, professional as can be.
I, too, got one of the limp-fish handshakes from the man interviewing me.
It was a panel interview.
I can’t tell you HOW many times they asked if I could lift 30 pounds.
The experience was nowhere NEAR what is posted in this article, thank God, and if I’m ever in a situation like that, I know I wouldn’t be able to keep my cool.
I’m no feminist, but I can’t hold my tongue when men say things that are so wildly disgusting and utterly out of line.
Do these assbags KNOW what CENTURY we’re in?!??!??!?!
nnnngh….
bethylane
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 03:46 pm: [report]
ugh, oops. I didn’t realize I’d repeated myself about the handshake bit.
Taurwen
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 06:04 pm: [report]
@Bethylane
The handshake bit was just ~that~ bad.
Besses
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 07:02 pm: [report]
Yes this is sickening, absolutely gross and I hope someone reported him. But, I can’t help but wonder: at this point in my life and in this economy, where I’m practically begging for interviews and job offers seem nearly impossible, would I not go for round 2? *Sigh* This economy blows and I’m pretty sure more women are letting shiz like this sl
Besses
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 07:03 pm: [report]
whoops- didn’t finish my post: I’m pretty sure more women are letting shiz like this slide to put food on the table and pay bills.
DancingGeek
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 07:30 pm: [report]
I would have walked out in the first 10 minutes, I’ve worked in a “boys club” type company where they’re nice to your face and making rude sexual gestures while your walking away. No thank you.
40yrolddad
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 07:39 pm: [report]
I had never seen a minute of that show until a few hrs ago - they were running a marathon so I figured I’d check it out since it’s so popular. what scene in what episode do you think I jumped into for my into to the show? you guessed it! about 30 sec before the rape in the office (that TF had a thread about a wk or so ago) - w/the risk of my 6 or 4-yr olds wandering into room I had to change it. pretty F’d up…
*sam*
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 08:29 pm: [report]
...reading through the comments, I’ve noticed something—why are so many females insulted by the ‘limp fish handshake’?? I can see why someone *might* take it that they are being slightly sexist in thinking that you can’t handle a proper handshake, but.. in all honesty, is it really *that* bad in your mind??
...perhaps it’s just b/c I’ve lived in the south my whole life that out of all the things a male could say/do to imply that he believes you’re the ‘weaker’ sex, a handshake that doesn’t squash your fingers together and leave ring imprints on your adjacent fingers or jiggle your arm so intensely that your upper arm fat jiggles like jello in a bumper car, just doesn’t seem like that big of a deal to me. *shrugs* most of the men that I’ve ever shaken hands with in interviews have given me the same shake that you all are so appalled by, and I guess I just don’t understand all the fuss.
bethylane
wrote on August 10 2009 @ 11:49 pm: [report]
@*sam*,
For me, the “limp fish handshake” is considered offensive for the following reason:
In this day & age, it’s common among most professionals to believe that a firm handshake indicates strength, positivity, and confidence.
The reason why I take offense at a weak handshake at an interview is BECAUSE of this common understanding. I feel as though that type of greeting, at the start of a job interview, shows that the interviewer doesn’t take me seriously.
Yeah, you’re right about it not being a *huge* deal, but something about it makes me question whether or not I am being taken seriously.
*sam*, I would like to know what your thoughts are regarding the rest of the article above. I will say that the weak handshake is not a colossal insult, but what about the rest of what the author wrote above?
Just curious…
Thanks.
lindseylee21
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 07:47 am: [report]
“Report” them to WHO??? The male chauvinist pig police?? Several commenters have left vehement “report him!!” comments but who in the world could you report this to? There were no illegal actions, just distasteful ones.
That being said, I am shocked that this sort of thing still happens. But I guess some older men are still in the mindset that women are just decorations. Too bad, his company will suffer from his lack of egalitarian values. Hopefully one day he’ll be out of there and someone with a more forward-thinking attitude will be in.
retro chic
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 08:15 am: [report]
Great topic, but, please don’t pigeonhole this event to a mere “Mad Men” moment. It is not unique to any one era, however seemingly less common now. Yes, “Mad Men” will be returning this week (and TF may be affiliated with it in some way), but the tie-in is as weak as that now infamous handshake. Sorry to say, sexism in its most primitive form is alive and well in many parts and in wildly, varying degrees. You just happened to step in an especially big pile of it that time.
Too bad you didn’t go to round 2 – which is what I would have done, just to yank his chain and use the situation for myself, that’s just me: @OneBigVoice, agree with you there – that is business-as-usual among the most pernicious conservatives whose gender roles are still archaically over-identified in the boardroom and bedroom. You’d find the wives are members of the “stay-at-home barefoot-and-pregnant country club,” along with a very staunch, conservative religious background. How else would it allow them to be unapologetically and stupidly oblivious to labor laws and practices… and be so galling to us? A second (or first) article could have been about that, and how you were able to work them under your job-candidate cover – tho, your profile wouldn’t necessarily indicate any interest in that as a PR/Marketing pro. You were probably in shock, like you went down some rabbithole.
Btw, but your limp fish assessment is accurate – lack of respect, his not wanting to “extend” or acknowledge equal standing in the encounter. You can believe a man wouldn’t receive the same trout. Not personal – just consider the source. Also, I carry a small voice recorder for business so I don’t have to remember or jot down tedious discussions, and come in *very* handy for those other *occasions* I may wish to *preserve.* “Ya neva know.”
Frederica Bimble
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 09:25 am: [report]
Oh wow….I have a treasure trove of memories on this subject. About 20 years ago, I was in the Army and I remember my Captain told me to “go wear a low cut top in front of the Major so we can have the rest of the day off.” I told him, “no, sir, I think you should go dance in front of him wearing a g-string and we may have a better chance to have the rest of the day off.” My Sergeant tried to tell me off for “insubordination” but I told him, “ha! You need to tell the Captain that he needs to learn the phrase “sexual harassment” and to learn it well because that is what he just did.”
That limp wrist handshake is a strange one I’ve encountered and one time, it came from a female high up member of the UK Government. I work for the Government over here and after I’d been introduced, I made a comment about her handshake – thinking it should have been a hell of a lot stronger because of her position - to one of the members of our finance team and he told me, “yea, they all shake hands like that because they are trained to do so.” He explained that because they have to meet so many people, their arms would be ready to drop off if they kept any sort of pressure going all day. That makes sense but it isn’t the same as the “limp handshake” when it comes to men greeting women in a job environment. I can remember being introduced to certain men and getting that hand shake and I’d say, “you call that a handshake? What’s wrong with you?” I’d then grab their hand and give it a few good, strong pumps and would inwardly laugh to myself when their arms would be flopping. Sometimes, it isn’t about any real or perceived sexism. Sometimes, it is just because they have weak handshakes.
I can remember going to the auto parts store when I was working on my car and usually, most of the younger men there would be really cool and help me find what I needed or they’d recommend something or whatever. There was one time when I went to my local store and there was this old codger working. I went up to him like I usually do with the other men and he yelled at me! I know this phenomenon well. These types of men are so far “in their own heads” that they have defied any sort of logic with dealing with others. If a man had walked in and asked for a piece of equipment or part, this old guy would have just been mellow and helped him (which I witnessed).
bethylane
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 09:28 am: [report]
@lindseylee21,
I haven’t ever taken this route so I don’t know if it would be the right one, but I think you can report this sort of thing to the better business bureau.
toyen
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 03:12 pm: [report]
Man, I didn’t know the handshake was such a biggie! I got schooled by a very intimidating and odd man that I was interviewing with at a music office (so wanted that job!). He schooled me in proper handshakes after I shook his hand, which was really uncomfortable, but a good lesson I suppose.
Needless to say, I didn’t get that job.
*sam*
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 03:24 pm: [report]
@bethylane: thanks for explaining the handshake thing!! I suppose it does make more sense when considering it in that light. (oh, and for the record, I’m currently going through a ton of training classes for my new job, and since I read this article yesterday, I’ve been taking note of how the male trainers shake my hand when we’re introduced.—I got a strong one today, and to be honest, I wasn’t ready for it and it shocked me b/c I’ve gotten so used to the limp ones!! lol. but that’s also not to say that the ones with a limp shake have shown any other potentially sexist/old-fashioned/disgustingly conservative/traditional leanings
).
but, as far as everything else in the article: *absolutely* appalling. I can ignore the hand shake just b/c it’s not a big deal in my book, but asking me to accept and willingly solicit being groped in order to conjure a business deal—HELL NO!! My boobs are really just there to hold up the excessive weight of my brain, thank you very much.
joyy
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 03:29 pm: [report]
@*sam* - //My boobs are really just there to hold up the excessive weight of my brain// quite possibly the best thing I’ve seen/heard all day.
Jessica Wakeman
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 03:36 pm: [report]
Unfortunately, this doesn’t totally surprise me. I have a relative who took an international job (I think in Beirut or Dubai) which was led to believe was going to be in PR. But after quit her old job i Europe and relocated all her personal belongings, she started to realize that the kind of “PR” these people seemed to want. They basically made it clear to her that they wanted her to “hang out” with the businessmen who were in town to do business and make sure they enjoyed her stay. She has a college degree, two Master’s degrees, and has lived abroad since high school, so she knows several foreign languages! As soon as she figured out that the job was sketchy, she felt trapped and didn’t know what to do. She ended up abruptly quitting and leaving the country. The whole thing was scary experience for us and at the time, I was shocked/horrified that this was happening in 2008.
fallonthecity
wrote on August 11 2009 @ 09:43 pm: [report]
O.O The mind boggles. I don’t know what I would *say* in that kind of situation. Kudos to you—you seem to have kept your cool!
lawyrgrl
wrote on August 13 2009 @ 12:34 pm: [report]
This is the kind of thing that makes me wish we had some sort of broad-based information/support system for women. I would bet a years salary that the woman who left the job you were interviewing for would love to sue for sexual discrimination and harassment. It sounds like she has an excellent case but I highly doubt she will be able to produce any witnesses as all of her co-workers will want to keep their jobs. Your testimony regarding what they told you was the reason for her “departure” and what they really want in an “ideal employee” for that position would be a beautiful smoking gun and make the case practically a slam dunk. What a shame that it is nearly impossible for that to happen!
Monty
wrote on August 13 2009 @ 07:07 pm: [report]
O.M.G.
I so wish that, without jeopardizing your career, you could name and shame this exec and his company.
callmehats
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 02:00 pm: [report]
That is hilarious. That guy sounds so over the top ridiculous I doubt I would have even been that offended. I’d have been on the floor laughing my ass off. It’s like when your grandparents get senile and racist in really bizare ways. You can’t be upset, you just have to shake your heard and be like “Oh, grandpa.”
Jayne
wrote on September 1 2009 @ 11:39 am: [report]
Haha! Omg… WHAT an #&@$%.
VX967
wrote on October 1 2009 @ 10:01 pm: [report]
Where have you people been? In the real world with ruthless people they get clients by getting the client what the client really wants Many a woman in such a position can use it to her great advantage and not sleep with anyone. Perhaps a read of The Prince,The Art of War and Thick Face Black Heart might put some guts and cunning into this group of crybaby’s.
One Big Voice
wrote on October 2 2009 @ 12:46 pm: [report]
@VD69 (AKA Montgomery Burns) - Oh, the REAL world. I guess I’ve been living in some fake, matrix-like false reality where people want to be treated with fairness and respect. Silly me.