Eliot Spitzer And Sexytime Violence

Rachel Kramer Bussel
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 09:18 am: [report]

I think they are two completely different things. There’s a common phrase/ideology in BDSM: “Safe, Sane and Consensual.” If one of these is not there, it doesn’t count. Within the context of a consensual relationship where both parties are into whatever they’re doing, be it role-playing, bondage, spanking, choking, etc., it’s not just fair game but something that people can safely eroticize. The whole point is that it’s not actually unwanted and not violence.

Obviously, to an outsider viewing a BDSM scene, it might not appear that way, but I think it’s very, very dangerous and disturbing to see the two conflated. BDSM is NOT domestic violence and I’m not really sure where this idea that “choking, face-slapping and spitting are becoming more and more part and parcel of hooking up” comes from, since it’s just thrown in there.

Perhaps as a switch, and generally more of a submissive in BDSM, I’m sensitive to this but I think this phrasing here is highly problematic. Violence is NEVER okay, and that also goes for unwanted kinky acts done in the name of BDSM if they are not consensual. But basically saying that people into kink are responsible for other people’s violent behavior is, well, just plain wrong.

Amelia
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 09:23 am: [report]

@RKB I don’t think Lauren is saying that it IS that way, I think she’s posing it as a question, and I think it’s a fair one, and one I’m glad to have you weigh in on. Lately, I’ve heard more anecdotes from people that involved sexual encounters where spitting, choking, etc have occurred, so in that sense, I do think it’s becoming more common—or maybe people are just feeling more open about talking about it. I dunno.

Alex V
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 09:34 am: [report]

That is something to think about: passing off violence as mere “spanky-pank”. Spakny-pank sure does seem to be in the mainstream a lot more than it used to be, just 5 years ago.

JGH
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 09:37 am: [report]

While I appreciate you raising the question, I agree with RKB: a distinction should be made between safe, sane and consensual BDSM - which most people within the SM community strongly advocate - and the dysfunction and abuse cycles that characterize domestic violence patterns.

This is not to say that domestic violence is impossible within the world of SM. Sure, it happens. But that doesn’t deserve the name of SM.

Whether we like it or not, fetishes and fantasies will always exist. What makes someone mature is how they act on them. Will they seek a constructive, consensual outlet for their desires? Or will they ignore their partner’s limits for their own gain? That’s the distinction, IMHO.

EastCoastMale
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 09:39 am: [report]

I strongly agree with Rachel from the view point of a D involved in the D/s lifestyle that in no way, in my opinion, do BDSM activites subsonsciously normalize violence towards women in other aspects of public life. In the case of Chris Brown, maybe I missed something but I have only heard of the unhealthy and unstable upbringing that he talks about on his own and not kink that he and Rhianna practiced that may have led to the recent situation. The point that just because there is a kinky atmosphere within BDSM does not make it in any way acceptable for unwanted advances or cloaking acts in the name of BDSM by those who think they can just hop into the lifestyle and bark orders is dead on, it is not no holds barred simply because it is a shade outside the sexual boundries that some people find comfortable.

Bryan
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 09:54 am: [report]

I generally agree with RKB, JGH, and ECM above, but I do think we ought to be drawing some boundaries between consensual BDSM within the context of a D/S relationship, and BDSM practiced between a man in a position of power and the call girl he’s hired to discreetly express his fantasies with. I think in the latter situation, there might be a whole host of uncomfortable associations, and it’s worth asking if some people might be exploring BDSM for the wrong reasons.

EastCoastMale
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 10:00 am: [report]

Bryan

There is where I propose there is a difference, I dont think that he was interested in learning BDSM properly necessarily more than just enjoyed a bit of kink and rough play and chose to act on it. There is a difference in people wanting to explore BDSM because they are curious nd kinky both sexually and otherwise and those who seek to use it to disguise their already distorted view of women and violence related to them. If someone who has real issues and is violent towards women in everyday life can seek to act out in thise way and preface it as BDSM activity, his chance of at least having an opportunity to do so is increased whether stable or not. I think this was an example of someone’s ego getting the better of them and rough sex happened to be associated with it, not a case of him having an interest in BDSM.

sholland
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 10:05 am: [report]

Considering the staggering number of submissive males out there who beg to be spanked, choked, spit on and ::wince:: have the heels of stilettos ground into their genitals (and get it), I don’t think this is a male dom/female sub issue. If you view S&M;through some patriarchal, hetero-normative filter, it may seem like this is violence against women, but when you look at the entire spectrum of people into safe, sane and consensual BDSM, you’ll actually find more people who think that women should be adored, worshiped and served. Just ask a submissive female how many times she’s had to firmly reject some guy who desperately wants to clean her house and give her a foot rub in a maid’s outfit when what she really, really wants is to be bound, spanked and taken roughly.

So far from ‘normalizing’ violence against women, BDSM acknowledges that there is a range of sensations that people find erotic whether they are male or female.

Bryan
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 10:13 am: [report]

@ECM Would it be better if I threw up scare quotes around “BDSM” is the case of those looking (as you put very well) disguise their distorted view of women and violence? I’m not suggesting that there are people genuinely interested in BDSM for the wrong reasons, but people could throw it around as justification for much more harmful and dangerous behaviors. I think the BDSM community is generally very good at making the distinction clear to people who are interested, but I also think to the society-at-large there is a less obvious distinction, so maybe a little consciousness-raising is in order.

sexartandpolitics
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 10:22 am: [report]

BDSM does not normalize violence against women any more than media outlets and vanilla sex do. Nonconsensual acts aren’t BDSM, they’re assault.

EastCoastMale
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 10:35 am: [report]

agreed bryan.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 10:54 am: [report]

Sounds like “Annie” wants 5 minutes too.

My opinion is that he paid for it, hence it is cool.

Any other time it should be talked about.

shelleatualive
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 10:55 am: [report]

Consensual rough play and domestic abuse are two totally different things. Once my BF accidentally gave me a little black eye while we were getting carried away and he was very upset and said he was sorry like a million times…
Thats the difference.. when you are playing rough everyone likes it, I dont think men who slap, choke in bed are not doing it to hurt, they are doing it to give pleasure..

hakatchkey
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 11:03 am: [report]

If there are men or women that do not know the difference between sexual foreplay and life outside the bedroom - then it could pose a problem. But, it is not a cultural problem - but a personal issue that should be dealt with - reality vs. fantasy.

LadyBalara
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 02:34 pm: [report]

The question is: “Do you think S&M;subconsciously normalizes violence towards women?”

I believe the opposite is true. Yes, there can be a fine line between BDSM and abuse. Yes, there are people (men and women) who use BDSM as a cover for abusive behavior.

But the key in BDSM is consent whether you’re a RACK (Risk Aware Consensual Kink) or SSC (Safe, Sane Consensual) player.

Because the C word is paramount, the possibility of normalizing non-consensual violence toward anyone is much lower in the BDSM community. As that awareness is spread, as more vanilla folk become educated on what BDSM is and is NOT, as kink becomes something we can be as open about as whether or not we’re LGBT, I believe non-consensual violence against anyone will become more abhorrent in our collective consciousness.

EastCoastMale
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 02:39 pm: [report]

LadyBalara

Well put and I think the points your raise are exactly right. Awareness of the true intent and concept of BDSM will prove that within that arena, people are very receptive to the reactions of other partners and consent is given before hand for pretty much everything. This is not tarzan knocking jane over the head and dragging her off.

FurryGirl
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 03:06 pm: [report]

What a heteronormative way of thinking about BDSM.  Why the assumption that it’s about a man inflicting something on a woman?  I’m a woman, and while I’m only medium-kinky, I’m generally a top.

MissMaggieMayhem
wrote on March 9 2009 @ 03:08 pm: [report]

I think that abusive violence is far more normalized than SSC kink and BDSM. For some reason the phrase “we enjoy doing this in our bedroom” is far more unacceptable than, “s/he deserved it,” in the eyes and minds of many people. Why is it that SSC kinksters lose their jobs, custody of their children, and acceptance from their family when someone who habitually date rapes women or maintains a history of domestic violence walks away from their crimes freely?

BDSM doesn’t usually fit well as a cover for someone genuinely abusive. They will generally find themselves unwelcome at events and at a loss for a willing partner because their behavior is not about mutual fantasy fulfillment.

Domestic violence doesn’t have a safeword. When I’m walking around at night, I do feel afraid that someone is going to hurt me and that makes me feel small. When I’m playing with BDSM on the other hand, I feel that I have a chance to demonstrate my strength safely with someone who cares about me and my wellbeing.