Domestic Violence Happens When No One Is Looking

bogart4017
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 12:38 pm: [report]

To get your message across you have to put more of these abusers in JAIL.

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 12:45 pm: [report]

It’s hard to be an abuser if the “victim” doesn’t stay or keep coming back. 

It’s a nice campaign and I love the clever idea for the poster, but I have no pity for the “victim” in an abusive relationship unless it is a child.  Everyone else has the option to leave.

Symian
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 12:57 pm: [report]

I think in these abusive relationships we need to go a step (maybe 2) further.  See, a lot of women will call the cops when they are being abused, but then they don’t file charges.  These women (or men in some cases) should be charged the gas, pay, and lunch of the officer’s whose time was wasted, and if they don’t pay they should have to spend time in jail (where they can be away from thier abusers and do some manual labor to pay thier way).

The real sufferers are the little ones who have to deal with watching the abuse or worse suffering from it themselves.  If a man abuses his wife (or the other way around) and she does not leave and seek help they both should be arrested, and before they can have thier children back full time thay should have to complete mandatory classes within 3 months of the incident.

I’ll admit that I don’t really care if adults choose to stay in a relationship where one beats the tar out of the other.  When these people waste city and state resources and/or mistreat thier innocent children everyone else has to suffer.  The people pay for the police and also they pour into the pot when women have to go to shelters and things.  These women (and men) need to take responsibility for themselves and thier kids.  It’s fine to get whacked in the face if that’s what she likes, but it should be against the law to stay in that situation with children.

As a product of a turbulent and abusive home I’d be lying if I didn’t blame my mom for a lot of what happened.  As children we could not leave, but she was the adult who chose to stay and therefore we had to stay.

moonblossom
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:08 pm: [report]

The ad is a great idea.

@alphabete - you sound so smart. I think you should go volunteer at your local domestic violence shelter so that all those stupid victims who obviously love to be beat can benefit from your superior intellect and logic.

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:16 pm: [report]

@moonblossom Symian and I grew up in an abusive home where we got to see firsthand what it’s like.  I don’t need to go to a shelter to see that. 

I have lived next door to or upstairs from or downstairs from ladies who would scream and beg “don’t hurt me!” on a regular basis and yet never answer the questions when I called the cops, or even sometimes answer the door.  More than one asked me to please stop calling, as their relationships are their business.  That’s fine, and lately instead of trying to help, I just ask the man to please just try to keep the woman quiet.  If she doesn’t want help, fine, but I am not paying rent so I can have my peace broken by someone who could have prevented me from having to hear her screaming some more.  Or door slamming.  I don’t condone abuse but if you’re going to stick around for it, try to get it right so that other people who understandably cared once upon a time (and still do, when children are involved) don’t have to deal with someone who doesn’t care whether or not their neighbor is losing sleep or if children are hearing the whole thing.

Yes I know abuse cuts across boundaries, sexual, gender, etc etc.  That’s fine.  The only victims of domestic violence I care about are children.  Everyone else can leave of their own volition.

moonblossom
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:25 pm: [report]

@alphabete - so basically your sleep is getting disturbed by her screams? That’s the basis of your complaint? I guess you have just answered the question as to what is wrong with society. I’m sure your abuser neighbor will be happy to beat the bitch unconscious so you won’t have to hear her screamm anymore.

Haven’t you heard of battered women’s syndrome? Don’t you know that women still only make 60% of what men make in the workplace? Don’t you know that women with families still bear upwards of 80% of the responsibility of taking care of the family - even when they too hold down a full time job? Don’t you know domestic violence costs BILLIONS of dollars in lost work, damaged property, emergency room visits, social services, etc. The bottom line is that this is wrong and so long as people like you continue to blame the victim, it will not stop. When women are forced to be dependant on men, women will be abused. And we all pay for it.

Sorry if you grew up in an abusive family, but your singular experience is not the final word. If your opinion on domestic violence is what you say it is then maybe you need to seek some help….your local domestic violence shelter probably helps children of victims as well as the victims.

retro chic
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:31 pm: [report]

Agreed with bogart4017. Jailtime is the only *deterrent* to be “aware” of—the point here, I assume. The ad’s *idea* is progressive, but will not help change things ultimately. Plus, a bus stop? That wouldn’t work as well in the states, esp CA—here in LA. We don’t have the same Euro/German demographic and love affair with—or access to—public transportation, unfortunately, and we have busloads of domestic abusers here who constantly get off.

Everything, helps, tho, I suppose, but that’s expensive passive advertising. It should be more direct and “tough love” exposing the life on the “inside” where abusers get abused the most. That should wake up the narcissists who believe they are omnipotent and able to dodge the law—this time.

Wynna
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:31 pm: [report]

Would I get in trouble if I called Alphabete a bitch?
In addition to Moonblossom’s post, have you ever heard of grooming? It’s not like out of the blue some guy starts attacking his girlfriend, it usually starts with self esteem. Then they do this thing where they get all nice again, strike a little worse, nice, strike and so on. Usually by the time it completely ramps up, the woman does think she deserves it and her support net has been alienated. Not to mention the fact that violence against women is still not taken very seriously in our society and the burden is on the abused.

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:33 pm: [report]

@moonblossom: While I appreciate your suggestion to get help, I’m going to say right now I don’t buy any of those excuses.  First of all, a relationship doesn’t begin with a man whaling on his woman.  The abuse has to start somewhere and if the woman takes it then she must like it.  It’s the only thing I can think of, since many other people say “I won’t let you treat me that way.”

I don’t care what it takes.  If I have to be homeless.  If I have to move back in with my parents, a friend, stay at church, whatever.  If a woman is *truly* dedicated to protecting her children she will do whatever it takes to protect them.  It’s a slap in the face to every woman who has escaped an abusive relationship and left her entire lifestyle behind to protect herself and/or her children.

If a woman truly wants to get away, she will, no matter what she has to do.

And yes, her screams bothered me.  Most nights I could hear her begging him to stop hitting her.  She sounded so pathetic I would call the cops every time.  She asked me to stop and I finally did.  I won’t call the cops any more because I assume if a couple is established and she’s getting her ass beat, she signed up for it a long time ago and it’s not my business.  I only call if there’s a child involved.

I would be less cold-hearted about the screaming but if she’s not willing to be a good neighbor what can I do about that?  We don’t scream or slam doors up here.  If she’s not going to respect herself the least she could do is respect the neighbors and show some common courtesy.

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:37 pm: [report]

@Wynna: Feel free to call me a bitch.  I’m okay with that.  Last time I got backhanded, though, I was a little kid.  I don’t care how someone tries to “groom” someone else.  If a grown person is willing to go along with the grooming process and can’t see it for what it is (basically anyone who will put up with any kind of escalating unpleasant behavior) then I don’t see what is so wrong with saying it is as much THEIR responsibility to get away from the situation as it is the responsibility of the abuser to stop!  I mean if people stood up to abusers then who would they abuse?

Symian
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:37 pm: [report]

Moonblossom, sometimes I wish he would beat her quiet faster, but he likes to take his time.  Everything has a syndrome attatched to it, how about “I can’t take responsibility for myself syndrome”?  Apparently as a product of this type of household we would be more likely to enter into this kind of relationship and think it’s ok, but I look at things a different way.  People who eat too much get fat, people who work too much get lazy, and people who stay in abusive relationships too long get beat.  All of these people have the opportunities to change themselves but choose not to.  Every woman I know who has been abused has tipped me off that they actually don’t leave because “my husband pays all the bills, how will I support my kids” or “The car and house are not in my name, where will I live” or the dreaded “but I love him”.  If you choose to keep yourself in a psychological stupor and deal with the physical abuse, that’s your business.

And imagine how much it costs to send those police officers out everytime some shirnking violet calls 911 then says she doesn’t want to file, and how much the taxpayers put out everytime she has to go to the ER to get her body fixed, everytime the state has to take custody of her kids and pay someone to take care of them.  I feel no pity for those who keep themselves in the dark.  there is now plenty of help available and the reason people don’t get it is because it’s not important enough for them.  The only relief the public gets is when the state is paying it’s last bill for that person and completing her autopsy, but only because she let it go there. 

If you’re body and children aren’t enough to cause you concern, then leaving isn’t what you really want anyway…

joyy
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:38 pm: [report]

@Wynna - indeed.  What you call ‘grooming’ I call brainwashing - a rose by any other name.  My father has my mother convinced that she’s incapable of living without him, which is absolute bs because she’s got a CPA and works so she can support herself, and after taking his sh!t for 30+ years, I highly doubt she’d be incapable of surviving on her own in the big bad world out there.

My mom actually came back for us (remarrying the douche after a finalized divorce) because for some reason, she couldn’t get custody of us and to the best of her (misguided, limited) knowledge, giving up her life to that was the only way to save us.

It’s hardly ever as cut and dry as “just leave” even though it should be.

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:43 pm: [report]

I realize my and Symbian’s opinions don’t count because we grew up in a #&@$% household which taught us never to live in that kind of situation again.  It’s just a shame that we have such a culture of victimization that the “victim” of abuse somehow takes ZERO blame for a decision they make every day.  If we’re going to expect *one* adult to take responsibility for mistreating the other, why can we not expect the OTHER adult involved to be responsible for his or her actions regarding whether they leave or stay?  The abuser isn’t having that relationship alone.

joyy
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:48 pm: [report]

@alphabete - You and Symian are not the only ones who grew up in a #&@$% situation and learned the lesson of how not to waste your life being abused.  I just think you’re overlooking some well-documented factors for why women stay in abusive situations or take way longer than they should to get out of them.  And some women just aren’t as strong as others.

Symian
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:53 pm: [report]

So then we can just go ahead and say that these women although they don’t like getting “told” over and over again, they lack enough personal respect and will power because thier brains have been washed clean of all sense.  So, theoretically, these are the same women who would stay in a burning house becuse their abuser told them too, even at the risk of dying? 

I suppose I just can’t understand the will of a weak person.  I wish some man would hit me in front of my child.  I wish her would hit not in front of my child.  I wish he would call me out my name in ANY situation.  I refuse to let someone else’s will dominate my own, so I find it difficult to sympathize with a woman who has zero respect for herself, especially when SHE’s grooming her children to abuse or be abused. 

Even people who are “groomed” realize the first time something off happens, but instead of bringing it up to the offender, they “love” him, or he pushed them because “he was blowing off steam”.  Well, they must be too caught up in their own stupidity to know that in the future, he’s going to blow off steam with his fist… in your face (if you’re lucky)... and in your kids’ faces (if you’re not).

wawmama
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:53 pm: [report]

@ alphabete, I used to think like you, then I found myself trapped in abusive relationship. Long story short, he cheated, I realized that if I continued in my marriage my kids would be the ones that suffered in the long run. I now realize most surviors don’t have a reality check like that, and stay with their abusers.  It’s hard to be compassionate when it’s some one else’s drama, and easy to dismiss victims as stupid, especially when you’ve only seen it from a child’s point of view. Your opinions do count, but I would appreciate it if you wouldn’t critize women like me, who have taken the long road to get their self esteem back, please.

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 02:57 pm: [report]

@Joyy: at least you’re not hating on me for having a dissenting opinion.  You’re right, we’re not the only ones, but for whatever reason our opinion is not valid.  I’m going to assume the reason it’s not valid is that it is unpopular.

It seems interesting to me that adults are expected to be responsible for themselves but in the end, someone like me who asks why both parties aren’t being held equally responsible is somehow wrong.

Those reasons may be well-documented and I understand the kind of impact they can have, but in the end, at the very end, every person has a choice.  Regardless of how afraid they are of going out to be on their own and perhaps losing their lifestyle or being impoverished.  Regardless of whether it is uncomfortable and she might lose everything.  Whether she loves him or not.  She has a choice and if she *chooses* to stay, regardless of external influences, then *she is still the one making the choice to stay* and that is all that I am saying.  That responsibility can’t be levied on one partner and not the other.  If someone can go to college and pay their own bills and hold down a career etc etc she (or he) can choose to make a better choice for his or her life, and if s/he does not, then in a VERY REAL SENSE s/he is choosing to live the life they are living.  Which is fine, as long as they don’t bother me after I’ve tried to be fair and do the right thing and call the cops or offer a place to hide or whatever.

Wynna
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:01 pm: [report]

Not hating on the dissenting opinion, more the delivery.
“but I am not paying rent so I can have my peace broken by someone who could have prevented me from having to hear her screaming some more”
“I would be less cold-hearted about the screaming but if she’s not willing to be a good neighbor what can I do about that?  We don’t scream or slam doors up here.  If she’s not going to respect herself the least she could do is respect the neighbors and show some common courtesy. “
Seriously? Ugh.

joyy
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:03 pm: [report]

@Symian, honestly, you (and I and countless others) might not have ended up so strong-willed and unwilling to take #&@$% like that from others had we not been on the business end of it growing up.  Everyone is different.  I count myself as one of those lucky enough to come out of these situations alive and resolved to never go through it again. 

My ex was abusive too, it just took me longer than it should have to realize what was actually going on since it didn’t turn physical until about 8 months in.  The day after that, I left.  Hindsight showed me how much earlier I should have left, but I was young and didn’t have my #&@$% radar that finely tuned yet.

Not everyone is so lucky, and some people also have mental illnesses that get in the way of what would otherwise be the voice of reason and good judgement.  I just can’t pretend to know what life is like for anyone else and personally get a bit of a kneejerk hearing others broadly categorize any group of people based on their own personal experience.

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:10 pm: [report]

@Wynna: I live in the grown-up world where we pay rent.  We have a child here.  We have to sleep SOMETIME.

If the woman would just TALK TO THE DAMN COPS I would care!  But no, so why SHOULD I care?  Why should I spend my time in my home listening to the fruits of her lack of self-respect?  I’m not saying it’s okay!  Let’s take the steps in order:

1) Screaming and begging
2) Calling the cops
3) Cops come, then leave
4) Screaming and begging
5) Calling the cops
6) Cops come, then leave
7) Neighbor asks me to stop calling cops
8) Screaming and begging

What’s step 9?  What do I do when some man is smacking his woman up in the parking lot and I go out to defend her, only to see her hugged up on him the next day?  At what point does the person become responsible for their own actions?  Ever?  Or they’re only responsible if they leave?  Then they’re so brave and strong and wise.  But if they stay it’s because they had no choice, right?

joyy
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:13 pm: [report]

@alphabete - maybe you can get the cops to charge them with disorderly conduct if she won’t go for the abuse thing?  Cause whether it’s abuse or, for example, say, obnoxiously loud sex or partying, they’re disturbing the peace.  *shrug*

Symian
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:21 pm: [report]

Joyy, I don’t think it’s takes a #&@$% radar to detect when someone doesn’t act normally.  We can bring every variable anf contributing factor to this conversation and what we end up with is excuses why people stay in thier miserable positions and then cry out in vain for help.  I never said that I knew what it was like to walk in another person’s shoe’s in this situation because when I date a guy and he says anything out of line to me, I kick him to the curb.  When he put’s his hands on me without me asking, I kick him to the curb.  And when he talks to me in a manner that does not convey respect, I kick his ass to the curb. 

Common sense is not luck.  If a man walked up to a woman on the street and grabbed her arm and yelled at her for whatever reason, she would probably try to beat him to a pulp.  But she will go home to a man who does that and worse, and cap it off with some sex to seal the deal.  She’ll lie about her black eyes (fist-shaped doorknob), she’ll lie about the bruises (fistt-shaped stairs), but she would report it to the police if any other person had done it.

And as for mental illness, I’m not sure if that might make you more or less likely to abuse or be abused, but even those with mental illness usually have moments of lucidity where they realize that something isn’t right.  I’m sorry if a lot of women haven’t grown to a mental place where they know what’s right and they are willing to stand up for it at any cost, but it also frightens me that these are also the people who help run the world I live in.  I can only hope that they make better decisions at thier jobs and everything else they do. Or maybe they would be more efficient if thier bosses groomed them for a little knock-em-down at work, since it’s apparently ok for these women at home, maybe they can make use of their unlucky mental illness inducing bad judgement and actually do something to help the rest of us instead of us rescuing them.

moonblossom
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:32 pm: [report]

Yesterday I was watching the news and the police said it was the hit-n-run victim’s fault he got ran over because he was walking in the spot. Oh wait…that never happened.

Yesterday I was watching the news and the police told the store owner that if he didn’t put so much nice stuff in his store, he wouldn’t have had shoplifters in there. Oh wait…that never happened.

Yesterday I was watching the news and the police told the banker if he didn’t have so much money in the bank he wouldn’t have been robbed. Oh wait…that never happened.

Yesterday I was watching the news and the police told the little baby if he wasn’t such a whiny, crying brat his dad wouldn’t have shaken him so hard. Oh wait…that never happened.

Yesterday I was watching the news and the police told the 14 year old high school girl if she wasn’t so damn hot her teacher wouldn’t have molested her. Oh wait…that never happened.

Why is it so acceptable to blame DV victims, but no one else?

Alphabete and Symian…your experiences and home lives are irrelevant. Let me be clear about this - people like you are the VERY REASON domestic violence exists. YOU ARE THE PROBLEM. Stop posting. Every other poster on here has called you both out on your #&@$% and you persist. Catch a clue - you’re WRONG.

wawmama
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:41 pm: [report]

I’ve been trying not to say anything, because, well, I’m still trying to move past my situation. Here’s why leaving my abuser was hard:

1) I only have some college, I dropped out of school to help support him. (I realize that that was stupid, now, but at the time it made me feel good to be needed.)

2) My self esteem was fair at best. (I later learned that abusers tend to gravitate towards those kind of people.) Constant questioning about my intelligence, degrading remarks did not help matters especially when they were coming from some one who “loved” me. This did not start until after we were married!

3) I was not allowed friends, it was just so much drama to go out, their was a fight every time, with accusations of cheating, my sexual past…it was not worth it. I was not able to see my family.

4) I have two very young kids, I’m overweight, I’m not that smart, pretty….Obvs, no one would want me.

5) He controlled all the money, I could not buy so much as a nail file without his ok.

6) He never did any thing bad in front of any body except his family, so no one believed me until he started messing around on me.

7) I had no place to go, if I went to a shelter, he told me he would take the kids.

So, I guess what I’m trying to say here, is that it does take work, and you have to believe you are worth some thing to leave.  Trivalize it all you want, but I know I’m stronger for the experience.  Wisdom comes from learning from the pain.

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:48 pm: [report]

@moonblossom: And here this whole time I thought that domestic violence exists because people think it’s okay to abuse one another.  Thanks for clearing that up.

Also, I’m just gonna say that it’s very clever the way you listed a bunch of examples of “what if,” none of which included an adult person repeatedly making a decision that keeps them in a situation where they have been and are being harmed. 

Our opinions are just as relevant as yours and just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean she or I don’t have a right to express ourselves.  And just because a few people disagree doesn’t mean we’re wrong.  It could just as easily mean you and they are wrong.  I find it interesting that WE are a problem.  WE never hit anyone.  WE don’t call people names.  WE don’t do things to people that harm them intentionally and repeatedly.  WE are just asking how come an adult gets a break on responsibility just because another adult is treating them like crap.  You don’t believe in personal responsibility, fine.  I’m not saying anything about you personally, but thanks for the personal attack.  I DO believe that there is as much responsibility on the part of the victim as there is on the part of the perpetrator and I’m not going to change my mind about it just because you tell me that you think I’m wrong.

If you want to say you think I am wrong, okay, you think I’m wrong.  Don’t call me “the problem” because I have never abused anyone and I sure as hell have done my part, more than once, to try to protect someone who has been abused.  We can agree to disagree, even if we think the other is wrong, but I’m relatively sure that it can be done without making it into a personal attack, because you took it past my opinion and made it about me.

Symian
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 03:59 pm: [report]

Ok moonblossom, I’ll give in.  Women are weak minded cretures who nead to be taken care of and sheltered but hopefully by someone who will treat them right because it’s not their fault that anything bad happens to them.  I was wrong o think that peole had to make important decisions for themselves and be held accountable for thier own actions.  I was blind not to see that it’s almost impossible to tell when you are being abuse and you might not even know until after you have gotten out of the bad relationship.  I now understand that staying in this situation is something that someone would never intend to happen, but we’re weakminded powerless beings who don’t know where to turn because we’ve been brainwashed.  I can’t even believe at this point that someone could blame these poor, poor, unfortunate women for what happens to them in thier own homes.  I am the problem.  I am the cause that so many of these people are in this situation and I’m glad that this is all coming to light now.

And you should probably stop watching so much imaginary tv, that’s not helping out these poor women’s cause.

And as for blaming the victim, we already know the reponsibility of the one with the anger problem.  No, it’s not ok for an abuser to physically, mentally, or emotionally abuse anyone, ever.  I never said it was.  BUT, he can’t abuse what isn’t there.

People like you don’t ever bring any change because if someone has an opinion different from your own it’s wrong.  I don’t care how many people here disagree with me, if the topic isn’t here for discussion, why allow comments?  Just because I believe people are responsible for themselves doesn’t mean that I don’t see that there is a problem.  I simply think that the people who should be in control should take responsibility.  I think the reason DV exists is because there are too many women out there willing to do anything but act for themselves, not because of me, I’m not out there whoopin’ their assses.  I’m at home teaching my daughter that this type of behaviour is unacceptable and that if she fails to get help in the beginning she will end up on the recieving in of a painful lesson over and over until she gets it. 

You can call #&@$% all you want, but let ME be clear about this, its people like me who are armed with the ability to protect myself and don’t end up in these situations.  So, I’ll catch your clue and lob it back at you, I can’t be too wrong if I’ve avoided this type of problem.

Wynna
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 04:00 pm: [report]

Moonblossom wasn’t the one who made it about you, that was me, and I admit I should’ve calmed down a moment before posting that. What I think she was trying to say, though, is that attitudes like yours and Symian’s enable victim blaming.
I work to pay my rent to, often swing shifts so I value sleep. If something like that was an issue for me I’d be calling the landlord, not making cold comments about the situation.

Symian
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 04:13 pm: [report]

Wynna, we’ve called our landlord, but unless we have the police reports to back it up they won’t do anything.  I know we probably seem like very callous girls, but we have been a part of the situation, we’ve watched our friends go through these situations, and we’ve dealt with it through our neighbors.  It’s hard to remain sympathetic when these women keep going back.  It’s even worse when you see it from the beginning of a relationship and you watch your friend bloom into an abused wife.  But you know what she does?  She goes back.  Why shouldn’t she bear some of the responsibility?  Why shouldn’t she be responsible for taking part in the violent episodes that her children have been watching for over ten years?  No, her husband shouldn’t do the things he does, but I personally have offered her shelter over 15 times, and she would rather go back.

I realize that my “experience and life” are irrelevant here, but it’s unfair to say that the abuser is the only one in the situation who has any control.  But it also seems that my experience would be much more appreciated around here had I been an abused woman.  I don’t feel I enable victim blaming and more than the victims themselves do.

joyy
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 04:25 pm: [report]

@Symian & alphabete - are you two roommates or something?

alphabete
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 04:32 pm: [report]

@Joyy: We’re sisters who live together.  We have a shared background and pretty much the same experiences with neighbors for about the past 6 or 7 years.  In case you’re wondering, we’re not cosigning for one another’s opinions here.  It’s something we have talked about many times, often after hearing some crap going on downstairs or seeing one of our friends looking all crazy because the man she loves with her heart, loves her with his fists or his nasty words.

We’re not even trying to be contentious.  It seems perfectly logical to me (okay maybe SHE might be trying to be contentious but I doubt it) that if one enters into a relationship there is also a way out.

PinkRanger
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 04:37 pm: [report]

@alphabete and symian: I respect the opinions you two have, and appreciate the experiences that you are bringing to this debate. I"m not going to go into details about my situation, but I was in an abusive relationship in highschool into my first semester of college. when I go through it all in my head now, after the fact, I can come up with a million reasons why I didn’t leave, and what it came down to was naivety.

Somehow in my little 18 year old brain I had convinced myself that I didn’t deserve better, and couldn’t do better. He was the only one that loved me, and would be the only one that loved me. I had dealt with substance abuse in highschool and felt very detached from my sense of self and sense of worth, and for lack of a better way to say it, I just rolled with the punches. But it all came back to me. To decisions I made, to the way I percieved myself. I should have taken responsiblity for myself sooner, and I recognize that.

I agree with Alphabete and Symian about the abused taking personal responsibilty, gathering strength, and getting out! It will never end if you don’t push yourself. Of course its hard, of course it seems imposssible, but it was my choice. And I made it. Finally.

On that same note, I hope you two will stop referring to women like me as “stupid”, no need to be condescending when you clearly have good intentions.

Symian
wrote on June 26 2009 @ 04:45 pm: [report]

Pink Ranger, I will stop refering to anyone in an unfortunate situation as stupid, because you’re right, it probably doesn’t help get my point across.  I’m glad that you got out of a situation that probably could have gotten much worse over time.  I’m even more glad that although you had to deal with the outside pressures of real life, you eventually found a way to get past this without blaming this person for everything that happened to you.

That being said, I hope that more women follow in your footsteps and realize that somewhere inside, they have the power to make good decisions that will make them happy in the long run.

PinkRanger
wrote on June 27 2009 @ 12:35 pm: [report]

@Symian: I just want to clarify. It was completely my abusers fault that I was abused. Completely. But it was my fault I didn’t do anything about it sooner. Thats what I think is rubbing people the wrong way, is that you’re wording things as if they are so black and white.

Also, your wording here implies that you still think women like me are stupid, you’re just going to refrain from saying it *which I appreciate* I may have ‘fessed up to being naive, but it’s not as simple as “leave or you’re stupid.” Again, not black and white.

I’ve taken my personal responsibility, and in the legal sense he is too considering he is doing time as we speak, but it is these types of attituds towards battered women that hinders the entire process. We are not just a cult of weak, simple, and stupid women. We are just like everyone else, just thrust into bad situations in which escape seems impossible, and crippling. It is up to the abused to get help, because odds are no one is going to do it for them, so yes, women that are abused need to gather their courage and escape, but I still sense some elitism on your part, that is ignorant, in spite of your personal experiences, it is ignorant to assume to understand all situations of domestic violence.

I just wanted to make it clear that while the abused have to take responsibility for themselves, it is NOT black and white, and I was lucky enough not to be married to my abuser, or have any children.

alphabete
wrote on June 27 2009 @ 01:02 pm: [report]

@PinkRanger: To defend my sister, her attitude comes from a place of extreme frustration.  Throughout our whole lives we have seen women and children victimized by husband/father/boyfriend and in pretty much every case we could only watch while the cops came again and again, and were sent away.  Or hear that so-and-so is in the hospital because they got beat up but then they were hugged up on the guy when he showed up to visit.  You’re right, these women aren’t representative of every victim of abuse.  It’s just very difficult to see the situation otherwise. 

Even now as adults we know women who simply will not act, and it’s so frustrating because we try to be there.  One of our friends would call on a regular basis.  If her child needed to go to the hospital because he was sick, she called my sister.  If there was a fight and someone needed to come protect the children, my sister was called.  When she stopped speaking to that couple, I kept up because I felt that surely this woman needed friends, and we love her (and her husband even though he can be a dick).  After about 3 years I had to stop talking to them as well, because it had reached a point where he was calling her a c**t in front of friends (like at parties!) and in front of the kids.  He didn’t care who was around when we went on a crazy tirade, and nobody else spoke up (he really likes to be crazy at parties).  But the wife?  She won’t leave.  He makes a bunch of money, she has what she wants, materially (and I’m not saying she’s some kind of materialistic person because she isn’t) and can take care of the kids and enjoy the occasional good time.  She’s heartbroken that pretty much all of her friends have stopped being in contact with her but what can be done?  She makes plans to leave but then doesn’t, citing “he’s better now.”  In the end, it’s really tough to empathize, because it brings us back to when we would beg our mother to divorce our dad, even if we had to live in a shelter, and she said no.

Of course neither of us believes it’s abject stupidity, because almost all the women we have known in this situation (and why is it so pervasive?) have been intelligent women, who run businesses or raise children or write or sing or whatever.  They’re *good* at what they do.  They do well at work because they can make decisions and cut their losses when they must.  But it seems that when they start walking up the front steps to their houses something changes and they become someone else.  The idea is so irrational that neither of us can compute it.  We’ve both been in relationships that threatened to become abusive and neither of us has a degree or runs a successful business but we knew when those relationships had to stop.

We just can’t figure it out, is all.  I can speak for her in this case because I know her confusion and anger.  Of course it’s cold-hearted to wish that the lady downstairs would scream a little softer so that my sister’s child can sleep at night.  It’s also a little easier because I have learned is that trying to help a woman in such a relationship is futile and it’s one thing when she lives across town, but it’s another when it’s right there every day and you can’t avoid knowing what’s happening, and worse, explaining it to your kid.

PinkRanger
wrote on June 27 2009 @ 03:05 pm: [report]

@alphabete: Trust me, I’m on your side, I just feel like you’re perpetuating these ideas with too much bluntness. I understand the situations you have seen, and I think most women are familiar with the exact circumstances you described, but the mentality of a broken individual who has been abused is not the same mentality of someone looking in from the outside, something I’m sure you understand from your childhood stituation. I feel like the ultimate decision for help comes from the individual and they MUST take responsibility for that,  and it breaks my heart to hear about your friend as well as your neighbor *I understnad that there is nothing you can do in both those situations, and it is not your job to police your building of course* and even though in your last post you recognize that not all domestic violence cases are like those, you still feel the need to reinforce the idea of weakness and stupidity. That is what I don’t agree with. Psychology is extremely dense, and years of abuse literally morph your psyche. I made bad decisions that in part led to my abuse, but in leaving him I was almost killed, and that was what the decision was at the end; stay and suffer the abuse, or try to get help and risk my life. I was lucky.

Sonic
wrote on June 29 2009 @ 05:18 pm: [report]

@ Pink Ranger:  Thank you for articulating so well everything I wanted to say. 

I used to volunteer for a few years in a domestic violence shelter and in the beginning, I had the “victims are stupid and weak” mentality, but after training and after I talked to a lot of the women, I realized it’s not as easy to say that when you look at a woman and realize that it’s not, as you put it, all black and white.  A lot of these women had warped mindsets that pervade how they see things. 

Part of the reason many DV victims don’t leave is exactly because of unfortunate attitudes like the ones displayed here.  They know people will look down on them, ask them “why didn’t you get out sooner?  for the kids!  for the kids, dammit!”  For a lot of women, they ARE staying for the kids.  In their mind, warped by their abuser’s verbal, emotional, and physical attacks, they think they might hurt their children if they left (“My husband has all the money, therefore the kids will starve if I take them away.”  And the one I heard most often:  “My husband will take them away from me.”) 

I guess I just ask, what can it hurt to sympathize with these women?  I can understand people’s frustrations because you tried to help and it didn’t work, but victim-blaming really doesn’t help them either.  Does getting angry and saying it’s their fault change anything?  I believe it would only make abused women even more ashamed and hide their situation and possibly reduce the number of women seeking help.  Does being sympathetic help?  I think so; if I were being abused, I would definitely go to a friend I knew wouldn’t judge me, not the one who would look at me and condemn.  I understand that it is the women’s responsibility to find strength and go ask for help and leave, but I think the anger some of them face would make some of them, with their frail self-esteem and doubts, turn away. 

I really can’t judge another person for their actions in situations like these and many others, because I don’t know what they are going through, I cannot presume that I would have done any differently in their case.

Sky
wrote on June 30 2009 @ 12:12 am: [report]

I agree with alphabete and symian. I guess what they didn’t say and something I always thought, is that after a while, you get sick of the victim. Especially being from a family where you see people abusing one another verbally and some times physically. As a kid and this goes into adulthood, is that you get sick of the victim, because they are weak; they make selfish decisions and they choose to stay there. Selfish, because no matter what, you have a system here in the U.S. the system helps battered women. It’s not perfect, but it’s a start. You can get on welfare, get an education, start doing what’s right for you and if you have kids, for them, but instead, they choose the abuser. Also selfish, because no matter what a person tells you, usually they stay, because they love their abuser. You can bring the multitude of reasons and try to cite all these reasons why they stay, but the bottom line is that they usually become dependent on them and love them. If they have children, if that isn’t a selfish reason, then what is? As kids from this environment, you just get sick of the victim and wish they grow a backbone.

It’s usually people who haven’t been in these situations who keep telling others to stop being so unkind, but they haven’t ever seen what it’s like to see your mom beaten up and having to beg your dad to stop. If the victim isn’t part responsible for putting their kids through that trauma, then who is? If you don’t have enough self respect, strength, then at least do it for the kids. One thing I wish, is for these people to stop procreating.

kmatter
wrote on June 30 2009 @ 12:32 pm: [report]

while i’ve read bunches of crap about abusive bf’s and such (my mom was in an abusive relationship before she met my step dad, who’s amazing) i have to agree with alphabete, if she’s tried to help the woman, then what more can she do? especially if she’s tried many times. i couldn’t help my mom. she had to help herself. because, even if i was just a kid, i would try to encourage her to go other places, call the police, yada yada… she didn’t listen for some reason. but she’s good now. thank goodness.

Sonic
wrote on June 30 2009 @ 08:29 pm: [report]

I’m a little confused at what I perceive to be conflicting ideas.  I understand the frustration and anger at the DV victim, but I guess I think we need to move past that if we want to support DV ending because being angry at the victims does not help them.  Like I wrote above, people are more likely to leave the abuse if they have a safe, nurturing environment to go to, knowing society supports their decision to leave, rather than anger that they didn’t leave sooner. 

I do know the anger intimately because I DID come from a DV home.  But would it have helped my mom more if I had stared accusingly at her and said “You’re a bad mom and I hate you for being weak” or if I had said “Mom, I love you, and I’m scared something is going to happen to us both.  Please leave Dad.” 

There seems to be this idea that by supporting the victims we are enabling weakness.  I see it more that it creates a more welcoming place for the victim to draw strength from and leave.

I guess the best analogy for me is like obesity.  Yes, people often become obese through their lack of control or whatever, but if we wanted to help the obese people we love, should we just rant and rave about how it’s their own damn fault and eff it, we’ve tried to help them too many times, they’re on their own or should we say “I believe you can do this and love you regardless”?

joyy
wrote on June 30 2009 @ 09:55 pm: [report]

@Sonic - ah, the fine line between tough love and harsh insensitivity.

Sky
wrote on July 1 2009 @ 04:05 am: [report]

Sorry if some of us are being harsh, but I’ve had a cousin whose husband got tired of beating her up and told her he wanted a divorce. Thing is, you can only be sad and helpful for so long, you want to shake some sense into DV’s, but they don’t listen, and then you give up on them, because they gave up on themselves a long time ago. It’s all about power and if you give it up to some person who’s beating the tar out of you, then you need to look at yourself and learn to value your life. Being there for them, caring about them, and providing a loving environment for them isn’t going to help them, it’s when they decide their lives are worth something.

Soxyp
wrote on July 1 2009 @ 04:32 am: [report]

I also came from a #&@$% situation. Not wanting pity or any BS like that. My father killed my mother through domestic violence then turned on myself.

The social services people did nothing, even with our neighbour complaning about the way us childern were being treated.

Now…what i can gather from reading through the comments. i was ‘groomed’ into a world of domestic violence that became the norm until i was 12 and the cop’s finally listened to our neighbour and not the BS my father spouted @ the cops. We were taken away etc.

Now i am grateful for that lady cos if it wasn;t for her i would possiby not be alive.

These may seem harsh but my memory of my own mother is tainted because she did not have the will power to leave my father and because of that i grew up the way i did.

I do not believe any one should put up with even one hit from a partner because if they loved you they wouldn’t abuse you. Not just physical abuse tho i mean. If they make you feel in anyway like crap you should get out of it.

call me what you like for saying this, i really don’t care but the ‘victims’ should stop victimising them selves and do themseleves a favor and leave.

Even in my adult like i was hit once in relationship as soon as it had happened i left him. My self essteam and self respect in tack.

joyy
wrote on July 1 2009 @ 08:47 am: [report]

@Bat Leaper - my definition of domestic violence is violence from one person to another who share a home, be it spouses, roommates, or other family members.  But I think that generally, child abuse is seen as different (though it still totally meets my own definition) when the victim is a child/minor because you have less autonomy to leave, especially when it’s a parent abusing a child who they legally have quite a bit of power over, though when the child is being abused, any other adults in the house are probably getting it too.

The article also neglects to mention male victims of DV, probably because they are in the minority, though they definitely exist and don’t deserve it either.  Good point though!  Along that line, the ad also neglects the damage non-physical DV can inflict, but it’s not exactly something you can illustrate in one scene as easily. *shrug*