Dating Trend: Going Dutch
Posted by: Amelia McDonell-Parry
Filed in:
relationships
10:00AM, Monday April 27th 2009
This weekend I had a conversation with two good friends of mine who are married and have been with their husbands for five-plus years. They were peppering me with questions about my oh-so-exciting dating life, and I mentioned that all the dinners and drinks were getting expensive. “Wait, what do you mean?” they asked. “Aren’t the guys paying?”
“Oh, no,” I responded. “Men don’t seem to be doing that anymore. Every date I’ve gone on, the check has been split.” They were aghast. What had happened to the tradition of men paying for dates since they were single? Was it the economy? Were men cheaper? Women more insistent on paying their share?
I’m a modern woman. I don’t think it’s fair for a guy to always pick up the check, especially if the date was initiated by the woman. I don’t think feminism is about picking and choosing which traditions benefit you. If you want equal pay for equal work, you’d better be OK with paying your half of the check some of the time. Who pays has become complicated by online dating, where two people mutually seek out each other. Catherine has done her share of online dating and found herself splitting the check or switching off paying for rounds. The latter seems preferable.
The economy does come into play. On my date with Mr. Plaid Glasses—who had said he was planning on wooing me—he told me he worked as a student teacher (for no money) and then in administration at a hospital (for a little bit of money). When the check came, I reached for my wallet, half-expecting him to say, “I’ve got it.” But he didn’t. I threw down my credit card and took the cash he put down, which added up to less than half, because he didn’t have as many drinks as I did. Is it shallow to say the first step in wooing is picking up the check for the dinner date you asked me out on? Because I knew he was hard up financially, I would have felt kind of guilty having him pay for the whole shebang, but I don’t think he should have made a stink about wooing me. I might have brought cash, instead.
The Doodler and I split the check entirely, which was fair, as we were set up by a mutual friend. Of course, going dutch might have been the first indication that he had no interest in seeing me again. Chicken Parm has taken me out a few times, and made me dinner too, but, frankly, I’ve done the later infinitely more and buying groceries for two gets expensive. It’s not that I think two people who are dating should keep a balance sheet of who has paid for what, but if you’re going to go dutch most of the time, or trade off who pays, at least try and keep it even. But how do you say to someone, “It’s your turn to buy the whole chicken if I’m going to roast it”?
After I had recounted all these various scenarios to my married friends, they called over their husbands and told them that I was paying for my own dinner and drinks on dates. “Are you serious?” they both said. “That’s crazy! I would always pay the check, especially on a first date,” said one. “I would never have the balls not to,” said the other. This was regardless of how they met the woman or how broke they were. For them, paying the check, especially early on in a dating relationship, was their responsibility, and they were happy to do it. So, what’s changed? Perhaps we’ll find out tomorrow, when I ask the guys on my IM. Stay tuned!
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powplz
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:11 am: [report]
What happened to all the ideas for inexpensive dates? Is my memory totally fuzzy, or are there not some posts on this site about dating on the cheap?
The bf and I switch off on who pays for groceries, dinner, etc now that I have a job making (dare I say) respectable money (for my age & degree, at least). When we were first dating, he picked up the tab most of the time because I wasn’t making much money and he had a taste for fine dining. Now we’re comfortable enough to say to each other “I’m broke til friday, can you pick up groceries this time?” and it works well.
Also, where are you shopping that whole chickens are expensive? I would expect everything in NYC to be a little pricier than most places, but I routinely find whole chickens from $2.50-$4 EACH - whole chickens are a budget staple. Try finding better grocery stores and cooking at home (even for two) won’t break your wallet.
Also, try making some vegetarian dinners together. They’re usually at least a litle cheaper and done right, usually healthier too. Also, I cook like it’s my effing JOB so feel free to drop me a line if you’re looking for cheap but tasty meal ideas.
justme
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:19 am: [report]
I personally cannot wait to see what the guys on IM have to say about this.
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:20 am: [report]
@Joyy: Whole chickens near me (Central Jersey) are 5 bucks.
Amelia
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:21 am: [report]
@joyy Oh I am definitely pro cheap dates, but for first dates, getting dinner and drinks is usually the way to go. And as for the chicken—I’m a big organic, free-range, cage-free girl
powplz
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:23 am: [report]
@Amelia - no wonder they’re so expensive! You could always try asking the dude to bring the groceries to you (i.e. pay for them and bring them), but then you might not get your organic/free range/cage-free ones. I’d definitely say go vegetarian for dinner at home dates in that case - meat is pretty expensive across the board even if you do buy the conventional stuff.
@Cheese - check the sales, yo
Humble Bee
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:26 am: [report]
My motto is, who ever asks to go on the date should pay.
If I ask the guy out, its on me. If he asks me out and is taking me where HE wants to go, then he’s paying. I usually make reservations and pay online, so that when we get there, its just easier (If its a concert, or show of some sort) Iv’e only had 1 guy that has been SUPER cheap on dates, I blame it on his virgin mind, lol. oh and his jobless status. I dont see a problem in splitting the check, it just shows that you have your sh*t straight, and you don’t need anyone to take you out just because its free. THE only thing, is that I try not to make it a habbit of me paying, if its after 3 dates and he’s paid all of them, I feel like I have to pay atleast 1. BUT If you offer more than 2 times, they think that your a cash cow and want to start asking for borrowed money… so beware! Try to stay away from paying ALL the time. They get used to it, like a comfortable bed. Offer, once in a while. (At least thats my experience with paying)
Amelia
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:30 am: [report]
@joyy It’s not really about the money so much as it’s about chivalry and fairness. I mean, I can afford to pay my half on these dates, but if the dude hadn’t asked me out, I would have stayed home and cooked something. I just don’t get it. There’s no courtship or wooing anymore!
powplz
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:34 am: [report]
Maybe you are just having an unfortunate streak of broke dudes? Best of luck!
loveitlala
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:36 am: [report]
There is something about online dating and splitting the check. Awful… I’m a student and some of these guys were well into their careers and could give a flip.
Humble Bee
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:41 am: [report]
Thank you Truth King!
I wish all men had your mentality.
I just see that guys now-a-days spend their money like idiots, then when its time to take they girl out, its like they make it the last priority and come up short on cash, because they spent it on a stupid car accessory.
My ex always paid, but that meant Olive Garden and buffets every freaking saturday.. needless to say I havent eaten there since!
Amelia
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:42 am: [report]
They’re not all broke. They’re definitely not rich, but they’re not scrounging the couch for change to pay the rent either. A coworker suggested I not go for my wallet next time and I might try it just as an experiment.
I will say though, my ex-fiance was super super super gentlemanly and traditional when it came to paying the check, both early on and well into our relationship—sometimes I would pay, but it was always “special” when I did. And, of course, he left me heartbroken.
Angieliz
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:43 am: [report]
The last guy I dated NEVER paid. It bothered me a little bit because I’m currently not employed (I had major surgery and still haven’t fully recovered) and I live on a small amount of money a month. I never said anything about it though.
katnohat
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 11:28 am: [report]
@Amelia: NEVER go for your wallet!!! Especially on a first date. Once you are dating someone, splitting is fine, but if your company is not worth the price of a meal to him, why are you out with him anyway? The whole process of dating is for the guy to show you how much time and effort thay are willing to put into the future relationship. If they can’t take the time to plan much less the effort to budget for a date, what’s the future going to be like?
shelleatualive
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 11:31 am: [report]
usually when I go out with my boyfriend either one or the other of us pays. If I say “lets go eat this tonight” I fully expect to pick up the tab, and usually it works out vice versa. Also, I’m all about cheap dates. We like to do things like going to dinner and watching a movie at home, or eating dinner at home and paying for our own drinks.
Im all about equality, but it says alot about a guy if they refuse to pay, or insist on a woman paying half on the first date.
elizabethmarley
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 11:39 am: [report]
In terms of first dates, I judge it on a case-by-case basis—but I guess I’m still a traditional girl and I think the guy should pay. However, most of my dating has happened in college and just-post-college when we’re all poor, so I always offer to pay (but the guy still loses points if he doesn’t at least put up a fight). I think it’s fair to split up the date—dinner somewhere, then drinks or a movie or coffee, and each person picks up the tab for one location.
Now that I’m a little more official with a boy, we usually switch off on who pays, or sometimes split the check 50/50 in a more expensive restaurant.
raneforst
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 11:40 am: [report]
Truth King has it right. The last guy I “dated” seemed to think “hanging out” meant the same thing. He not only didnt take me out to dinner but once, he also made a point of not buying me drinks (he had a problem with liquor, I dont). He played music in bars and would walk up behind me as I was ordering my drink & ask me to buy him a soda. I thought I was being modern but he turned out to just be stingy, and not just with money. I have decided that if a guy cant be bothered to cough up either a few bucks or a creative idea for a cheap date then he just isnt interested in me enough.
-no more dutch for this girl
retro chic
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 11:59 am: [report]
Yeah, Amelia, skip the check/wallet grab. I’d let him offer, then give a simple “Thank You.” Otherwise make a sincere request to co-pay *without* the grab, and open a discussion about it. It’ll just fester and diminish your sense of self-worth otherwise. Generally, tho, I’m with you and Truth King at least for the first date for the guy paying, period.
But more to my point:
Q: What’s really paying Dutch anyway, on a proportional sliding scale when women typically only bring salaries of 67% to the table?
I’m in favor of that. But I’m sure that’s not what dudes had in mind.
smerfette
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 12:24 pm: [report]
Only once in my life was there a date that wanted to go dutch. I found him quite pathetic, actually. And gentlemen, before you take it personally, listen to what I have to say.
This man and I were set up by a mutual friend. Our first date was a barbeque at the mutual friend’s home. Kind of like a potluck. Everyone brings a dish. When he called me to pick me up he mentioned that everyone had to bring something and that “WE” were in charge of drinks, but “don’t worry, I got the drinks for us.”
Okay, great. I think to myself. Turns out the drinks he brought were a black cherry type of soda that only he enjoys drinking. However, when he called to set up the next date, which was supposed to be dinner out and a play, he mentioned that we should “start going dutch from this point forward.”
Excuse me? Start going dutch? As though we haven’t gone dutch? This would be the first actual date, and buying a black cherry soda in which you are the only one who consumed during the barbeque does not account for picking up MY TAB.
Honestly, I don’t expect a man to pay on the first date, and/or all the time. In fact, I typically offer to pay at least my portion of the bill each time I go out with a new man, or a current one that has not reached boyfriend status. But to be quite honest, if the man lets me pay the bill or my half, especially on the first date, there would not be a second date.
I don’t say this because I believe it is owed to me, and women for that matter, that the man pays for the date because he is lucky enough to be sitting in my presence. No, quite contrary. I believe that men paying for the meal separates the gentlemen from the men.
And well, I’m interested in dating gentlemen.
lalaland
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 12:37 pm: [report]
panburns you clearly don’t like women, so why are you here?
Amelia
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 12:38 pm: [report]
See ya later, panburns!
Muttface
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 12:42 pm: [report]
@Panburns- Your spot on with the whole gender equality means no more preferential treatment to either of the sexes. I find it interesting that although Amelia payed for half of her bill, she took note of it enough to write about it. Obviously it bothered her. I don’t understand what rationale she (along with many of the other women posting comments) have in justifying that men should pick up the whole tab. There really is no explanation other then the tired old cliche of “Feminist until the check comes.”
justme
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 12:46 pm: [report]
Truth King, do you have any words of wisdom for old Muttface here? This is the reason women pay today. Boys today prefer no responsibility and all of the rewards, so when women don’t go dutch we’re called gold diggers.
Amelia
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 12:46 pm: [report]
@Muttface The only time I really took issue with it was when they guy has been the one pursuing me and asked ME out on the date. I think I was pretty fair about the whole issue—I don’t mind paying my own half most of the time, but I do think it’s interesting how commonplace it’s becoming.
powplz
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 12:48 pm: [report]
@Muttface - really? In the post, she actually talks about how she’s fine paying for dates, and then goes on to detail the outrage *her married friends* have over something she takes as normal.
She does mention “If you want equal pay for equal work, well then you’d better be okay with paying your half of the check some of the time,” while musing about how she ends up footing the bill MORE than the guys.
There are a lot of comments running on about how the guys should pay, but not the post itself so much. Read the post, not the flames.
Muttface
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 12:54 pm: [report]
@Amelia- Lets face it, although you find this dating trend interesting, you and most women don’t particularly like it.
@joyy- I read the post. You read between the lines.
powplz
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 01:00 pm: [report]
@jolt/panburns - anyone who touts that men are across the board superior to women can’t like women very much. Do you really think that posting this over and over again is going to achieve anything? Muttface makes the same point you do, but without the name-calling, personal attacks, and overall bullsh1t.
fallonthecity
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 01:08 pm: [report]
People get this so mixed up. I want to be equal in the workplace and I want a relationship on my own terms - and those are two totally different situations. I don’t expect my male coworkers to pick up my lunch bill or lift my heavy objects (that’s what material manipulators are for) - but I will expect my date to pay for dinner when he takes me out. This does not include fast food, picnics, home-cooked meals, or the like… but if I’m cooking dinner for you, it would be nice if you would bring along a nice bottle of wine.
Amelia, don’t reach for your wallet right away. Even if you’re fine with going dutch, how graciously your date handles the matter will tell you a lot about him.
PandaBearPuffer
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 01:21 pm: [report]
I think willingness to pay on a first date is indicative of a general attitude that the dude is bringing to the table. For example, jolt gave us some wonderful insight into the kinds of douchebag guys who absolutely refuse to pay for a female on the first date. There are a lot of guys, my ex-boyfriend included, who believed that feminism was an excuse for a guy to be a jerk and free-load off their girlfriends/wives/significant others.
Understanding a male’s attitude regarding paying the bill can let you know the way other potential arguments in your life may go.
I, for one, firmly believe in being generous to your loved ones. That being said, I also believe that people need to prove their worthiness of receiving said generosity, and I’ll be damned if I’m generous to a guy who is too stingy and self-centered to even offer to pay on the first date.
lilafly
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 01:23 pm: [report]
Hmm…actually this might be bad but I keep a mental tally in my head. I can’t help it. If i know he’s paid quite a bit, I’ll usually offer up to pay for something. But I think it says a lot about guy who will just let someone pay all the time. I mean, it’s not even just about male/female. If a guy goes for beer with his buddy and is always skimping on the bill, that’s not cool.
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 01:25 pm: [report]
@jolt: You bother with proxies to flame people on web forums? That seems like a complete waste of bandwidth and time, just step back and look at what you’re doing.
writergirl
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 01:25 pm: [report]
I’ve been married for almost six years and I am not quite sure how things have changed in what is seemingly a short amount of time. When I was dating, the men paid most of the time, and acted insulted if we insisted on paying our half. The guys that *didn’t* protest when we paid were, as it turned out, not really good guys in the long run. (And I am not basing that on the fact that they were cheap) I can’t think of one instance among me or my friends where the guy didn’t pay for the first date. [Well, ok, one. I paid because I wanted to make sure the guy knew I was in no way beholden to him. At all.] The married men quoted in the article and what Truth King said, are exactly what I can imagine my husband, ex-boyfriends, friend’s husbands saying.
Look, flame me all you want, but the simple fact is, chivalry and gallantry are dead, not because of the men, but because of us. We tell men we don’t want them opening our doors, picking up our tabs, placing that one hand on the small of our back as we cross a street, and whatever else small gestures of chivalry and gallantry still exist. So what do you think happens? Of course it is going to wither and die on the vine.
Amelia is right. If we demand the basic tenents of feminism, then we’d better not have a problem paying for dinner. I’ll take that one step further: You also can’t wonder why guys aren’t paying or offering to pay. Men today—with a notable amount of exceptions—are probably afraid show hints of chivalry or gallentry for fearing that they’ll be summarily dismissed for having infringed on a woman’s independence. We’ve made our beds by chosing to live in accordance with feminism; we have no choice but to lie there.
The lines aren’t clear anymore. They weren’t clear when I was dating years ago, but they seem more muddled now.
But Amelia, your coworker is right. Sit on your hands the next time the check comes to the table and for any first dates you have here on out. (Unless you ask him—then you should pay, that I agree with). Sit on your hands and see what happens. Let him reach for his wallet. If he doesn’t or protests, or whatever, well, then, I would dump him. If he’s not willing to splurge on a round of drinks, what makes you think he’ll be willing to up his share for the heating bill?
strapless
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 02:06 pm: [report]
Truth King has it right.
If he’s not trying hard to “court” you, he’s a) not that into you, b) cheap c) been spoiled by women who whip out their wallets; they’ve trained him that he doesn’t need to work so hard.
So on a first date, never pull out your wallet. He’s invited you and it is his treat to spend time with you. If he doesn’t have a lot of money the treat can be starbucks. The point isn’t how much he’s spending on you, it’s that as a good guy he wants you to feel comfortable.
If you pull our your wallet you are telling him that you are not worth working for. And worse, that you are not used to ANY guy working hard on you since you’re assuming you’re paying.
So when the bill comes, do not reach for it of your wallet. When he reaches for it, smile, touch his arm and say, “thanks, that was delicious.” This will help you weed out who is a nice guy who falls into the C category. He’ll get it, that you are a woman worth pursuing - and a woman who is used to being pursued. If you do this and he says, “...and your portion is $15.33,” then you know he’s an A or B and this will be your last date.
And of course, once you start dating regularly, you can begin contributing to the bill - be it picking up a round of 2, or the snacks at a movie, etc.
Muttface
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 02:25 pm: [report]
@Truthprincess- I did not degrade or belittle anyone. You however, cast dispersions on my character and my mother. I am merely offering an opinion different then some of the other posters. I think this quote is more applicable to you.
“Hatred is the cowards revenge for being intimidated.”
George Bernard Shaow
rsonnack
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 02:42 pm: [report]
Perhaps we women don’t necessarily LIKE this new trend, (who actually LIKES spending money?) but we realize that it’s necessary and important, especially when the woman is the one who asks the man out, or when you get into a relationship where you split evenly (my boyfriend and I take turns paying).
Little Lamb
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 02:55 pm: [report]
My philosophy is: he gets the dinner, and if the date goes well and continues, I’ll get the drinks.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 03:00 pm: [report]
I like dutch. Stops me from having to deal with guys who feel I “owe them something” I want them to know that I make my own way, and that I appreciate company more than gifts. If he insists, I let him, but then try to pick up the tab on the next date. I like being an equal partner in every aspect of dating. its a control thing.
Linz
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 03:06 pm: [report]
I recently started dating someone new and I am totally in the thrawls of this issue. I have paid for drinks at the bar before dinner or breakfast the next day. I don’t usually offer to split dinner, but I try to pick up checks here and there to make it a little more even. He has never had an issue with it and I am sure he would pay for everything if I didn’t offer.
develange
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 03:35 pm: [report]
Money never fails to be a hot issue…
in my dating history, the majority of the guys didn’t pay for me, mostly because they were broke. But they also weren’t into any other form of chivalry. And yeah, most of them ended up being douches.
With my current BF, I was overwhelmed by all the chivalry he threw at me. He was confused as to why, after opening the car door for me, I didn’t unlock the car door for him. I had never heard of such a thing. Now it’s become routine, but I just never learned that in my dating history.
Just goes to show that maybe some guys weren’t brought up to pay for dates and do all that chivalrous stuff. Same goes for girls.
I still offer to pay for dinner and do occasionally, but the most important thing is to tell him THANK YOU and do kind things in return (beyond sexual favors, though sometimes that works just fine. giggity.)
lilo
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 06:26 pm: [report]
If you’re just meeting up to see if it’s a match, I think it’s fair to split the bill. However, if it’s a first official date, no matter who asks, it’s appropriate for the man to pay. You can always take turns paying later.
kimba999
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 06:33 pm: [report]
I’ve always thought the guy should pay on the first date and we should take turns or go dutch thereafter. My current boyfriend (it’s been six months) won’t allow me to pay for anything when we go out. He also opens doors, helps me on with my coat, etc. I make dinner for him sometimes and buy the groceries ahead of time but that’s about it. I have protested that it isn’t fair to him to have to pay all the time but he just says he wants to do it. I make a decent salary but he does earn twice as much as I do. It’s nice on one hand but I feel guilty as well. Should I?
CABlonde
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 07:04 pm: [report]
Amelia. . .this surprises me a lot! I’ve gone out with a lot of guys recently that I’ve been set up with my mutual friends, people from online, and people I’ve met randomly and I have never paid for a first date. I usually offer to pay by the 3rd date but most still won’t allow it and I have to admit that I would be a little taken aback if someone asked me to split the bill on a first date. I would never not go out with someone that doesn’t have a lot of money but I would expect them to plan something that they can afford.
After I’ve been dating someone for a while, and we’re in a committed relationship, I have no problem paying the bill every now and again, especially since I know that I make more money than a lot of people right out of college do. A few of the guys that I’ve gone out with have just handed their credit card to the waitress before she even sets the check down on the table. . .which is great because it eliminates the awkward situation altogether. I’d take a look at the type of guy that you’re choosing to go out with. As a person with more conservative beliefs I typically go out with conservative guys, and I think that it may make a difference.
CABlonde
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 07:07 pm: [report]
Also, I used to have a friend who would say that the man should pay because women spend way more money on their hair, make-up, clothes, etc trying to look hot for him. . .would he rather we spend the money on 1/2 of the dinner and come in looking like crap?
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 07:34 pm: [report]
@CABlond: Conversely, what do we spend on what you say “Looking good”? I’d say marginal spending at best, and if you logic holds true, we would be taking you to Burger King. The entertainment afterwards will consist of throwing the uneaten pickles at the windows outside, and watching them race race down in earnest. Wheee!
Also, Muttface and Truth King are acting like divas.
lindssaurus
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 08:03 pm: [report]
i think if a guy can and wants to pay for dates i let em. but there will be other times where i will buy coffee. yeah im poor its not much but alot of the men i dated understood. now im with someone and i dont mind going dutch. he pays for dinner i pay for us to play golf or movies. its a once a week treat. people should at least go out out once a week to keep the sparks going. just going out less helps you pay for those one date a week.
saysay
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 08:08 pm: [report]
If it’s not totally clear to you if the guy is gonna pick up the check, excuse yourself to the bathroom a little bit before the waitress brings the check (you can usually sense when that’s gonna happen). It eliminates the awkward moment when he either decides to pay or to split etc… I’ve used this technique a couple times and it had proved to be efficient. Also, If it’s a first date he should pay no matter who asked who out. I think If he’s going then he’s interested, and if he’s interested he should do some of the work. You did the hard part by asking his lame ass out.
retro chic
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 08:29 pm: [report]
We can pick all night about who pays for what, but ultimately, as Truth King says, what does this say about selecting a mate?... presumably the point of dating. Shouldn’t we ID our value preferences early on and work that into our pass/fail dating criteria? The check thing is just the tip.
For those still “counting,” someone, please define “half the bill.” How does equal tab portions paid with unequal salaries, as mentioned earlier, fit in? Yeah, kimba999, I’d like to know too, as that has been raised but left unaddressed.
Backliteyes
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 09:10 pm: [report]
“If you want equal pay for equal work, well then you’d better be okay with paying your half of the check some of the time.”
This would be a logical argument if women actually got equal pay for equal work. What is it currently, about 70 cents to a woman for every dollar to a man for comparable work?
theattack
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 09:20 pm: [report]
PinkRanger, that’s exactly the way I like it too. Glad to hear that I’m not the ONLY one who genuinely likes to carry her own weight.
omgemilyissohot
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 09:41 pm: [report]
The only time I have issues with paying is when it seems expected. I work but school cuts into my hours (which were cut when I transferred anyway) so my parents help me out with expenses and my ex seemed to think that because they did so that I should pay more often because there was always a back up fund for me. I try to be self sufficient and don’t like my parents paying part of my rent let alone for my love life. I appreciate men that understand that, especially when they’re out of school and working full time.
Paying for a date is an act of generosity that shows a lot about a person. I still pay my own way or pick up the tab quite often to avoid feeling like a leech but it’s something I do because I like the person and don’t want them to feel used. Neither should feel obligated to pay for everything though.
Davidseattle
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 10:39 pm: [report]
I always pay, however I do like it when a girl at least offers to pay, I don’t insist. I feel bad if they pay at an expensive place as it seems rare for me to find a women (Not being sexist just the women I’m meeting it seems) who makes near what I do.
fallonthecity
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 11:26 pm: [report]
@flynnlovesdanish aka panburns, aka jolt: I hate to feed the troll, but…
There are women out there who will happily pay their half for dinner on the first date, and even pay for *you* on the first date. If that’s what you want from a woman, find those women, and date them.
Feminism is about empowering women to make our own choices, and to be whatever kind of ladies we want to be. That means there are all types of women out there - go find the one who doesn’t mind you calling her a c**t!
Davidseattle
wrote on April 27 2009 @ 11:28 pm: [report]
Wow flynnlovesdanish has a wee bit of baggage, if you don’t like what is said here you could go elsewhere it’s a big tube.
omgemilyissohot
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:27 am: [report]
@flynnlovesdanish You know you don’t actually have to follow the link, right? Maybe you just shouldn’t click on the item you have no interest in reading. Of course I am a dumb c**t so that could be a ridiculous idea.
develange
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 07:28 am: [report]
i enjoyed reading that huge rant, which appears to have been deleted. It’s always SO effective to call everyone here dumb c ***s when you are trying to prove your profound logic. FAIL.
And anyone who argues that women and men are a certain way because of NATURAL INSTINCT and BIOLOGY . . . I’m not going to listen to you.
og217
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 07:39 am: [report]
I think if you met online or if it’s unclear whether the outing is a date, its ok to split the bill, split defined as 50/50. A date really should be paid for by the guy. As such, he can chose to go all out or go to a cheapie cafe, so as to control the expenditure, but I would not want to date someone whose idea of dating is so lame as to not buy a girl a cocktail. What’s down the line, me schlepping our suitcases through airports while he strolls with a fanny pack, because I “have more shoes and toiletries” in the bags? I also think that any man who splits a bill on a date by itemizing is absolutely repulsive. This happened to me once with a diet coke, as in, I had 2 and he had one so he made sure I paid $2 more. I know we live in a let-it-all-hang-out world, but being broke or cheap aren’t things that I feel people should broadcast. Aren’t these bad things? Why are people displaying them like badges of honor? I’d rather die than tell a person I really, really like that I can’t affort that $9 cocktail. I would think any guy who’d freely say that doesn’t have any interest in me whatsoever. I’m going to call my husband now and thank him for being wonderful, generous and masculine.
wawmama
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 07:41 am: [report]
See, I find out alot about a guy when he pays, it’s not about wanting to be “taken care off.” First of all, you can get a clue about wither or not he’s cheating on some one to be with you, by paying in cash. (Of course there are other reasons to do so as well, but there are also other signs if that’s the case.) You also find out about his manners, if he feels you “owe him” for it, or if he’s genuine in being ok paying for it.
I don’t mind paying, I’ll do the offer, but I’m not looking to support anybody else right now either, so I’m not covering the bill all the time.
Chebs
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 07:52 am: [report]
I’ve almost always had the guy pay, but I’m also a cheap date. I’m much happier grabbing fast food and going to a park to hang out and chat than going to a really nice place and trying to not look like a moron.
Also, @ Develange, now I have the old Natural Instincts commercial running through my head, complete with the whole “you make me feel like a natural woman” bit.
bellarose
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:04 am: [report]
I’ve only been on one first date in the last three years where I had to pay my half; it was a terrible date to begin with, but midway through dinner he blurted out, “So I got this and you get the movie?” I couldn’t say no. It was akward, he was the one who asked me out, and to be honest, he didn’t stop asking until I agreed to go, not expecting this, and not prepared to throw down $45 for tickets and popcorn and candy, which he just had to have. Considering this was the first time we had ever hung out since we met casually downtown I don’t agree with the way the date was split.
Since then, all of the guys I have dated have always paid for the first date and normally for the first few. I usually offer to pay for the meal after the first few dates, but it happens that they insist that I don’t. After dating for a couple months I don’t even offer and just pull out my credit card before he has a chance when he is not expecting it. I think guys will appreciate that sort of initiative and independence in the end. Plus, it shows them that money isn’t a huge deal to you; and they see that you are not just hanging around to get out of paying for your meals, drinks, or whatever. It shows a better character than the girl who hesitantly pulls out her wallet and shyly mumbles “Want me to get this?”
og217
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:18 am: [report]
If it’s the kind of date that turns from dinner to cocktails at another venue and then a stroll and then a late-night snack, etc., then I would definitely pay for one of the “stops,” but really, you as a man would have to have some bizarre mess in your head to ask a woman to dinner, chose a venue, and then stare at her expectantly when the bill comes. Then what, try to cram your tongue down her throat? No way. There are things called manners. If you can’t be mature enough to have a real date, don’t ask. I as a woman wouldn’t think to roll up in saggy sweatpants and fart all night, laughing hysterically. That’s just not what you do on a date. If you want to be with a girl who is a lady, treat her with some decorum.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:42 am: [report]
I think everyone here is putting too much emphasis on socially constructed gender roles. saying that its the girls job to “look hot” and he “should be grateful”. I just disagree with all of that. when I’m on a date I don t want to be treated like a princess. I want to be treated like an equal. I don’t want to put a guy out 50 bucks just because that’s “how we were raised”. Also, I have been in more than one situation in which my date felt that since he paid for dinner that means I have to supply the wine and apartment for afterward. I don’t want that kind of pressure. Not everyone Ive had a first date with deserves to be invited in!I feel like the two peoples income has little to do with it. If I cant afford a place, I say so. I’m not gonna make my date pay out of revenge for women s oppression and lower wages. that’s ridiculous.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:12 am: [report]
@truthking & cheese: come on boys, lets get along! you are taking some pretty low blows, and I’m not sure why…........
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:52 am: [report]
@janspants: do NOT call Amelia a bi*ch. and secondly, where do you get off saying that men are smarter and more capable than women? we don’t want to vote? what women do you know? I am deeply offended that you think so little of women. I enjoy my responsibilities and my rights and I’m not gonna let some ass*ole try and make me feel guilty about wanting my independence. screw you. you obviously know nothing about feminism. everything in your post is complete BS. If you feel you’re getting shafted because of women in the workplace, than just step up your game and try harder to succeed. sounds like someone is taking out their personal failures on women, I don’t play the victim, but you obviously do. women are now getting the jobs that you want, and you cant stand it that we are qualified and capable too. do not belittle me you misinformed misogynist.
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 10:05 am: [report]
@Truth King: You don’t warrant a response.
@Everyone else: This isn’t a right/wrong question, no magic bullet can determine what is right for your situation. If the dude doesn’t cover whatever, and you expect that, either drop your prejudice or get out of there, simple. Or you could #&@$% talk about it, like adults.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 10:17 am: [report]
@ Cheeseee: just for the record, I truly respect your opinions and I’m glad you come on here as much as you do, you have interesting and clever things to say
og217
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 10:59 am: [report]
I grew up in New York where pretty much anything goes, but I would just about faint if some dude had the cojones to imply, expect or demand ANYTHING in my apartment because he bought me a meal. And I would most certainly make sure he understood how crass, cheap and pathetic he was, and if possible inform every single person he knows or could ever hope to meet. Taking a woman on a date and buying her FOOD does not require any reciprocation except a “thank you.” Anyone who has other ideas should be redirected from dating to patronizing starving hookers in third-world brothels. I would not accept dates with men I don’t like for free food or booze so theoretically sex was not out of the question, but to assume that I cost a chicken salad or something? SLAP!
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 11:14 am: [report]
@og217: I expect to use your pepper grinder if I am at your apartment. Is that what you meant?
og217
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 11:17 am: [report]
yes. yes it is.
katnohat
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 11:19 am: [report]
@ theattack: maybe we’re from different worlds, but as a single mom with no child support who also has to pay a sitter each time I’m asked out, I don’t see where paying for a meal with someone who invited me out is carring my own weignt. I carry my own weight and then some, every day! A date is just that, a date. The guy pays, you say thank you, and that’s it unless you both decide otherwise. Who are you guys going out with anyway? None of my dates would even dream of having me pay even half!
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 11:21 am: [report]
@og217: Wonderful, I like peppered food. Everyone wins!
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 11:39 am: [report]
@katnohat: if you’re paying the babysitter, I would consider that going dutch. I just personally feel uncomfortable allowing my date to pay for everything. I think it reinforces gender roles that I don’t agree with. simple. A date doesn’t have to follow a certain set of rules. But its not completely black and white, there’s definitely a gray area. taking turns is usually a fun alternative.
wawmama
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 11:46 am: [report]
@katnohat: do you have any other single moms that you can share kid watching duties with…or family? I totally get where you’re coming from. (I’m also lucky that my ex in laws try to make up for the lack of child support by taking the kids every other weekend.)
og217
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 11:48 am: [report]
At the end of the day, even a total deadbeat who was raised by wolves will instinctively reach for the check if he finds himself out with a girl he is really, really into. So, besides implying that a guy is a deadbeat and raised by wolves, a man who doesn’t pay on a first date sounds like that book - He’s Just Not That Into You. I think often we girls want to be like, “But it’s different, it’s complicated, he just lost his cat, his roommate is moving out, he lives in New Jersey…” whatever. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck… it’s a cheapskate who is saving his money for a girl he really likes.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:00 pm: [report]
@og217: I didn’t say anything about him, I want to keep it equal. ME. I’m not gonna use the check as some twisted test to see if he is a scumbag. that’s manipulative. I know you don’t mean it like that, and I’m sure you’re not a manipulative girl *from some of your posts on here, we agree on other issues!* , that’s just how I feel in my mind. I want everything to be equal in my dating and relationships. I don’t want to be catered to.
og217
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:04 pm: [report]
I am not sure that it’s a fair point to bring up the cost of a sitter as part of the equation. I understand that its costly and a giant pain, but that’s one of those things that falls into the category of “personal problem.” It shouldn’t be the burden of whoever is taking you out on a date. Just like if you went and got your nails done - it’s just not appropriate to be like, “I got my hair blown out for $40, so drinks on you, and I got a sitter for my kid, so that’s dinner, and these shoes set me back some, so I need a limo ride home.” I mean, who know, he could totally trump you and be like, “I got 10 kids and my sitter costs 10 times more than yours, so you pay for a vacation to Puerto Rico!”
I don’t think paying for a date depends on which person that spent the most to get there or has the most problems in life. If it’s a real date, the guy pays. A small window of fogiveness is open if the woman did the asking and chose the venue, but then the onus is on him to reciprocate next time.
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:07 pm: [report]
I think a sitter is somewhere between drinks and a blow out, once again gray area left to interpretation.
og217
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:08 pm: [report]
What’s wrong with being “catered to?” I “cater” to my husband and treat him well, try to do nice things for him, see if I can make his day a little easier or more pleasant. He does all sorts of wonderful things for me. Why not start out seeking a person who is like that instead of finding some boor and then trying to make him into a wonderful sweetie? I have a good job, make good money, am physically strong. But it’s nice that it’s not me but my husband who carries heavy objects and buys me flowers. Of course I can do it myself, and he can order his own bloody business cards, but why not be kind to the person you love?
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:10 pm: [report]
@og217: I just mean, if she cant afford to go out, because she paid the babysitter, I think the guy should pay out of respect. I still just don’t think there should be such a hard rule that guys should always pay. eh, I think Ive made my point as best I can.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:15 pm: [report]
well, thats just me. I don’t feel comfortable being catered to. and my definition of catered, is that he does everything for me. That makes me uncomfortable. I want to be an equal partner. I didn’t say that I hate when dates do nice things for me. everyone is different, and these old gender roles don’t work for everyone.
wawmama
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:22 pm: [report]
I don’t think a man should pay for every date, I just think who ever picked the place should. Dutch is a good start, but it’s not a guarantee of equality.
However, I don’t think it’s manipulative to pay attention to details when they present themselves…i.e. him picking up the check, and the manner in which he does so. I just like it when a guy does because I don’t have a ton of money to spend on going out. Simple as that. (It’s not like I’m looking to take care of me either.)
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:26 pm: [report]
@wawmama: true, I just know a lot of men I dated in the past didn’t have much money either. I hated making them go broke just so I wouldn’t have to! lol.
wawmama
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:37 pm: [report]
@PinkRanger: lol, true, but I feel less guilty about it with 2 mouths to feed. I just make sure it’s a cheap place. Most of my first dates are at my favorite pancake house for that reason. (It’s a classy one, though it’s only slightly more than IHOP.) And there’s good coffee! With actual cream! (Yes, I’m a dork, and paranoid.)Or some other some other cheapie date, like bowling, wine tasting ($7 per person), that sort of thing.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:47 pm: [report]
@wawmama: I’m definitely in favor of cheaper dates!! especially if its a first date. what if you hate each other and just dropped 50 bucks on fine dining? heh nothing wrong with a decent pancake house, even it is ihop! lol.
wawmama
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 12:53 pm: [report]
@PinkRanger: There’s tons of great things about pancake houses, my thought is “even if it sucks, I get to see pretty stained glass, and I always have at least one item to talk about…” lol (My Grandma and her boyfriend used to go there after seeing a play at the local Marriott theater.)
theattack
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 02:34 pm: [report]
@katnohat:
I agree with Pink Ranger completely. Whether or not I pay for my half doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not my date offers really. I just personally prefer paying for myself, because I was there enjoying his company too. I don’t feel like my date owes me anything for my company. I’m there having fun with him too.
As for having to arrange childcare, that’s your personal situation, and it’s fine to take care of it how you like, as long as both of you agree to it.
I don’t think gender role has anything to do with it, as I completely object to those anyway. I believe that women are completely equal to men, and as such, they don’t owe me anything for my company. I don’t ever want to be in a relationship that isn’t completely egalitarian. If I can’t have that, then I don’t want a relationship.
I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with doing something sweet for each other every now and then. That’s great actually. That’s just the way I run my personal life, and I really enjoy it.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:22 pm: [report]
Seriously dude, stop using such offensive language. I never spew hatred about men, and I want to be treated with the same respect. #&@$% you.
PinkRanger
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:23 pm: [report]
you wonder why we think you hate women? everything you say is ridiculous generaliztions about feminism. I’m not going to be courteous to your opinions if you are going to judge me based on the fact that I identify myslef that way.
theattack
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:36 pm: [report]
lelady:
Does saying ignorant, misinformed, misogynistic bull on the internet make you feel better about yourself?
Do you just have so little value to your life and such a pathetic existence that you have to make yourself feel better by saying harmful, ridiculous things about others?
There’s no way I’m even going to begin arguing with you, because there’s no point.
saysay
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:38 pm: [report]
my oh my, this really isn’t that serious…
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:39 pm: [report]
You have quite a grudge against these ladies for some unknown reason. Why you insist on coming back with the aid of proxies is beyond me. We don’t much care for your blatant attacks against Amelia nor your careless waste of your own time. You may disagree with this site, but please, do yourself a favor and leave.
katnohat
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:43 pm: [report]
Seriously, I never intended to open up such a huge can of worms! I know that paying for a sitter is ‘my personal problem”. But, then again, when I do go on a date the guy knows my situation up front. Also,maybe I’m a little old fashioned, having been raised by my Grandmother. She just told me to expect to be treated a certain way, and it will happen. And paying for a sitter is not in the same catagory as getting nails or hair done, those are luxuaries, not neccesities. Just for the record, I have been in a relationship with a guy nine years younger than me, just finished school, and he still tries to pay for everything, even though I’m the more financially secure of the two of us. Guess he’s old fashioned too.
theattack
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:43 pm: [report]
We CAN’T listen to you, because your stream of name calling sort of clouds our ability to have a clear mind in listening to what you’re saying, because we’re too busy feeling the need to react brutally.
You say that we hate men, but do people like you make us want to do anything but just that? Most women do not hate men, and those that do probably have good personal reasons for it.
saysay
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:44 pm: [report]
** and i meant the topic not being serious… not the textual abuse this little fella keeps throwing at everybody, that is a little scary.
theattack
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:46 pm: [report]
Not to mention that not all men are the same, just as not all women are. If you’re not just a complete replica of every other man in the world, then you need to back off and realize that not every woman is the same either
Kati-Anne
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:48 pm: [report]
@LeLady
Well slap me with a d*ck and call me sally, aren’t you a fuzzy little cuddle button? I guess the matter of paying for a date isn’t really an issue for you since can’t imagine many women hang around for more than 30 seconds of being lectured at.
Anyways, I like alternating paying and planning for dates, because I like feeling like I’m being treated to something, and I love the feeling of treating someone else to a meal or an outing. I generally keep an effort balance sheet in my head, the money doesn’t really concern me.
katnohat
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:51 pm: [report]
...ya think? who is he and why is he here if we’re all c’s and b’s?
saysay
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:53 pm: [report]
I think he might be Bill O’Rielly.
katnohat
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:57 pm: [report]
@saysay:scary thought, but funny!
@lelady:you are so sad, really, you are just so sad and lonely, I feel really sorry for you.
NdlovukaziThor
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 08:59 pm: [report]
This is so outrageous, it’s hysterical. Though, I’m just a silly little see you in tea, unlike the Grand Poobah of The Department of Redundancy Department here. I’d knit mySELF a brain if my needles weren’t shoved up my nose!
saysay
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:01 pm: [report]
You are a psychopath. The LOL’s and winking amidst the ranting, really f’n freaky. BTW, if CNN featuring The Frisky is really hurting your ego that much, take it up with CNN, or visit a therapist.
theattack
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:04 pm: [report]
Because obviously you know so much about all of us personally to tell us how we feel and don’t feel. Actually, I agree that sometimes women can demand too much of men in personal relationships sometimes. I have an entire slew of opinions in that realm, though I’m also a die-hard feminist. I am a feminist because I believe in EQUALITY, not women’s domination. I’ve written many papers about this very topic, though I absolutely do not agree with the way you’re presenting your side. You just assumed that we wouldn’t agree with you, because we don’t have penises. It’s a lot easier to catch flies with honey than with vinegar. Also, the name-calling just makes you seem ignorant because you obviously don’t have a large enough vocabulary or enough intelligence to form more than a generic insult. You lost all credibility in presenting your opinion when you started insulting your audience and their intelligence.
You’re not worth anymore of my time.
CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:06 pm: [report]
Your argument contains no rebuttals. Please no one respond to this miscreant please.
NdlovukaziThor
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:11 pm: [report]
I LOVE CATS!!!!!!!!
saysay
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:11 pm: [report]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyCQ6vKqgnU
NdlovukaziThor
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:17 pm: [report]
Oh, CheeeeEEEEse, poor thing… you caught the repetitive bug repetitive bug! ELL OH ELL WINK WINK
NdlovukaziThor
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:22 pm: [report]
Well, that one was quite a letdown.
NdlovukaziThor
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:25 pm: [report]
We’ve met before, haven’t we?! It was because I showed up with my 37 cats on leashes, wasn’t it? And then I opened my mouth. Oops!
NdlovukaziThor
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:28 pm: [report]
Nah, no eyelashes to put mascara on after that fire… I was trying to wash dishes AND cook a meal in the microwave - didn’t turn out so well!
Rusty
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:33 pm: [report]
@Lelady
No one here respects nor takes you seriously because you don’t take your self seriously nor act it. You speak of “REAL MEN” , yet by you actions you are the least qualified to discuss this. You conduct yourself in such an ungentlemenly fashion that I would be mortified if I acted this way. Let me ask you how would you feel if someone called your mother or sister a “c*nt”? It’s one thing to disagree, I’ve found that I disagree with many things posted on this site. But I do what REAL MEN do: take it LIKE A MAN! Not launch into diatribes. It’s entirely another thing to launch unfounded tirades and diatribes against people. Moreover, what kind of man hides behind a proxy server to attack women? Can you answer that? No, because men don’t do that sort of thing! They stand and defend their position. You state that they have launched ‘Ad Hominem’ attacks against you, but you are the one with a record for using “Ad Hominem” attacks.
@ Amelia don’t listen to this jackass! I come on this site every day and read and enjoy your posts. I’ll read them tomorrow and the day after and so on. Don’t let his vile creature’s attacks hurt you! He’s just an angry little child who wants to take every one down with him. Misery loves company.
NdlovukaziThor
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:35 pm: [report]
I actually prefer the crazy radiation leaking out of it, frying my ova. I’m hoping my 17 children are more messed up than anyone could possibly imagine!
Rusty
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:52 pm: [report]
Yeah, Women take you real seriously!
NdlovukaziThor
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 09:55 pm: [report]
Them thar’s a lot of wires above muh trailer! And I know better than to leave home, so don’t worry!
theattack
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 10:07 pm: [report]
I can’t even believe this comment disaster is happening. I feel like this website is currently infected with some disgusting, infectious disease.
theattack
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 10:09 pm: [report]
And I encourage everyone that reads this to please notice your report comment button.
Rusty
wrote on April 28 2009 @ 10:26 pm: [report]
What kind of man uses happy faces as punctuation?