Girl Talk: Could You Date A Man Who Didn’t Call Himself A Feminist?

RMJ
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:00 am: [report]

My partner of three years isn’t a feminist. He never has been, though it’s always been a topic of discussion since our second or third date. At that point, he made it clear that while he was respectful of my identification, he didn’t share it. And he’s never grown into it. I wasn’t really expecting to fall so deep in with him, but here I am.

Feminist was on my must-have list for my partner, but that’s not the way it worked out. Am I disappointed he’s not? Somewhat. Do I wish he was? Yes. But he’s never been a smidgen less than respectful of me, and he’s always willing to discuss feminist issues with me and engage thoughtfully. And I just love the dickens out of him, so I’m not going to give it up. No partner is perfect, and it’s sometimes refreshing when I’m immersed in feminist theory.

tattooed_redhead
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:09 am: [report]

Feminism is so much a part of who I am that I don’t think I’d even be attracted to a man who wasn’t a feminist himself. It would mean changing my very essence for him, and I don’t do that.

RMJ
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:12 am: [report]

“Feminism is so much a part of who I am that I don’t think I’d even be attracted to a man who wasn’t a feminist himself. It would mean changing my very essence for him, and I don’t do that.”

I know you’re speaking from personal experience, but:

Not dating a feminist has NEVER EVER created circumstances where I needed to change or hide my essence or my feminism. I am a much more active and committed feminist today than I was before I met my partner. Nor has he ever asked me to.

People are different. You don’t necessarily change in a relationship to mimic your partner. Sometimes, it helps to define those differences and make them more valuable, because you are not always in agreement.

joyy
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:21 am: [report]

@tattooed_redhead - what RMJ said, ditto.

I don’t think you can do an article like this without supplying a definition for feminism, as another contributor here did: the belief that men and women are equal.  That threw me for such a loop that I had to double check the definition, and it matched what I found in a dictionary.

Feminism does need a rebranding, because to call the belief that the genders/sexes are equal “feminism” just seems counterintuitive, which is why I don’t apply the label to myself.  I’ve never asked, but I bet my bf wouldn’t identify as feminist either.

However, the one positive outcome of his Mormon upbringing was a thorough disgust for the institutional heritage/belief that men are superior to women.  Hearing him talk about how the church-aligned family dynamics were a large part of why he moved out at 15 assured me that even though he’d probably never say it in as many words, he’s very much a feminist and believes in equality.  Couple that with years upon years of watching him treat women, myself included with respect, and there’s not much to question.

Identifying as something or subscribing to a label is meaningless.  I could not, though, date someone who actually thought men were superior to women ... who was in action, theory, and belief not “feminist.”

Riley
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:27 am: [report]

@Jessica - You want him to value your ideals and opinions, but if his aren’t the same is yours then they must be changed or all is lost?  Sounds fun.

@RMJ - I agree with you 100%.

I would never attach the feminist label to myself, people already do enough labeling to each other so why do it to yourself.  That doesn’t mean that I don’t think everyone should be afforded the same rights.  I don’t use race/gender to evaluate anyone or their capacity to do things in life.

Infamous
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:36 am: [report]

Absolutely. Because I can’t name five men that I know that would label themselves as such. It doesn’t mean that my bf doesn’t believe in gender equality, it’s just that, yeah, it’s a branding thing.

Quite frankly, I probably don’t label myself that near as often as I should because of the negative connotation since I’m not what I would consider a radical feminist. Perhaps I, too, should embrace the label and try to change minds.

This was a great article, because it’s got me thinking now. Perhaps in embracing and owning the label I (we) can encourage the conversation in my (our) little part of the world.

B1ll
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:43 am: [report]

Is the label important or should one pay attention to how the person thinks and interacts with women?

tabby
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:48 am: [report]

This conversation reminded me of one time in the car when my brother was listening to me rant about how my aunt (a full professor at a good university, btw) thought feminism was stupid, useless, outdated, and questioned my judgment for calling myself a feminist.  He pipes up, “Everyone should be a feminist.”

Yes, my brother is awesome

GreenAura
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:51 am: [report]

I am a female that entirely believes that all living things are equal - man, woman, animal, tree, whatever - because to me we are all creatures of the same planet. I loathe labels.  I am simply HUMAN.  That is the only ‘label’ I affix to myself.  So naturally, I am with a man that feels the same way.  I couldn’t be with someone who did not feel that we are all equal.  I don’t like the brand of ‘feminist’ either because you are still using labels to identify someone, and that in itself is a form of inequality.  If we are going to call ourselves anything, shouldn’t just be called ‘humanists’??

DancerNinja
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 10:59 am: [report]

If I must, I prefer to call myself a “humanist”. I don’t expect anyone to treat me differently just because I’m female. I’ve even paid on a first date because I did the asking! I open doors, give up bus seats, and the reverse treatment is just being good people. Having a gender specific label such as “feminist” seems counter intuitive when one is pushing for true gender equality.

Molly Jean
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 11:00 am: [report]

I can’t tell you how happy I was to see this story!  I don’t know why, but I have been thinking about this a lot lately, so for me this is very timely!

Here’s the thing, feminism has evolved through so many different waves over the decades that now it’s really hard to determine what it actually is.  I think the term means different things to different people.  I am a feminist & the part of feminism that I am most passionate about, hands down, is feminism’s stand on violence against women & ending it.

I don’t know very many men who call themselves feminists for some reason, BUT I would absolutely never date a man who didn’t agree that violence against women is a major issue that needs to be addressed (a core feminist issue for me).

I think (hope) most of the readers here agree that women are intellectually equal to men & if women work as hard as men they should be paid the same, etc.  Bra burnings, etc, I’m not so passionate about.

I think it’s something every man should be passionate about, too, if you love or ever have loved a woman.  I don’t think men fully get it though.  Unfortunately, in this society, being a woman is dangerous.  I don’t know that men really get this. 

This is a little out there, but I recently watched Sean Penn’s Into the Wild.  The whole time I just kept thinking how if the main character was a woman, she would have never made it to Alaska alive.  She would have been beaten, raped, or killed by someone, I think.  It’s so terrible that I thought that, but there has to be someone out there who knows what I’m talking about?  I guess when it comes down to it, I’m a feminist because if I ever have daughters, I would really love it if they lived in a world where their gender didn’t put them at risk.  You know?  I just wish there was a better way to communicate this to men?

flatline
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 11:03 am: [report]

Somehow I knew just by the title who the author was.

bbpickles
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 11:04 am: [report]

@Bill- Agreed. 
Why does it matter whether or not I call myself a feminist, or if my bf calls himself a feminist?  I have never labeled myself a feminist; I do believe men and women should be treated equally. 

I wouldn’t date someone that thought I was somehow lower on the human scale than he was simply because I was a woman.  It doesn’t mean I expect him to label himself as a feminist.

Actions speak louder than words.  If he treats me like his equal, that’s enough for me.

Raugiel
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 11:12 am: [report]

I would never call myself a feminist without at least a paragraph long explanation. My BF, however, knows more about feminism than I do, and can identify the different “waves” of ideology. (and yes, would consider himself a feminist in the same way I do, that we believe men and women are of equal value and potential ability) When we met, he knew more about feminism and its history than I did, which was quite impressive!

GreenAura
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 11:16 am: [report]

@ MollyJean: I understand that violence against women is rampant and terrible and should not be tolerated.  BUT, couldn’t we broaden the spectrum a little bit to not tolerate any and all violence??  Because to me, anytime you separate women from any issue, it further divides the genders. Violence against a man is just as bad as violence against a woman.  Aren’t we all equal?

Molly Jean
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 11:37 am: [report]

@GreenAura: of course all violence is bad, but gender-based violence is especially rampant.

pragmatryst
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 12:32 pm: [report]

@RMJ: “Feminist was on my must-have list for my partner, but that’s not the way it worked out. Am I disappointed he’s not? Somewhat. Do I wish he was? Yes. But he’s never been a smidgen less than respectful of me, and he’s always willing to discuss feminist issues with me and engage thoughtfully.”

Isn’t the whole point of feminism to eradicate discrimination and prejudice against women so that both genders embrace a genuine respect each others’ strengths and work cooperatively toward achieving an egalitarian and mutually beneficial coexistence?  Sounds like your boyfriend is already on board with all of that, so if anything he’s a POST-feminist, why would you be disappointed that he is not giving lip service to something he is already putting into practice in his daily life?

If you find yourself feeling guilty that you haven’t been giving him proper credit for his evolved thinking you might consider treating him to an evening of abject subservience as a sort of penance.  Cook him dinner, bring him his slippers and his pipe, and let him borrow your official NOW protest sign so he can spank you properly for being a naughty little girl.  Then you can lead him into the bedroom and re-enact the liberation movement and celebrate just how far modern womyn have come (no pun intended).  Who knows, he might even lose himself in the moment and let you call him a feminist.

HappyDude
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 01:45 pm: [report]

When a man calls himself a feminist, he often has to carefully and painfully explain to other men that “No, I don’t hate porn and I don’t think women are better than men, I just believe in equality.” It’s tiring and frustrating and not worth the hassle. It’s much easier for a man to say “I believe in equality”. “I support equal pay for equal work”. Attitudes and beliefs matter far more than labels.

tattooed_redhead
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 01:46 pm: [report]

I guess what I’m thinking when I think about a man not being a feminist is a guy like one I work with who is so right wing he’s nearly horizontal and is constantly whining that he can’t find a ‘traditional’ woman who doesn’t want to work, just stay home and push out babies (my words, his ideal!). And to be his ideal woman is so against my beliefs that it’s what I meant by changing my essence. Could never happen.
That being said, I’m sure there are guys out there who aren’t feminists, yet aren’t at all like ‘Bill’, who I would be willing to spend time with.

Xymox
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 02:32 pm: [report]

@GreenAura, feminism is called feminism yes because it focuses on gender issues, and when it comes to gender issues its usually always women who get the short end of the stick, and also tackle issues such as equal pay and abortion rights.  Feminism does imply a woman oriented philosophy but thats because it was started by women for women. Feminism today is so many different things that it really is personal, for me abolishing gender roles and norms is my way of ending sexism, Molly Jean focuses on violence against women (which is awesome by the way).

Anyway, to the topic at hand, I wouldn’t be able to date anyone who is sexist, or even tries to control my behavior just because I’m a woman, but I do understand that a guy might be uncomfortable with the label of feminist.  I wouldn’t dump anyone over it but I would get him talking about why the label makes him feel uncomfortable.  Like you, I think the important thing is to sport the label and show people that they are wrong about us, and get them talking about these issues that feminism addresses.

GreenAura
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 02:42 pm: [report]

@ Xymox: My basic point was equality on all fronts. I personally would like to be known as a ‘humanist’ (if I am to be known by anything other than my name).  That being said, I too absolutely admire Molly Jean’s viewpoint. How could I not?

theoldman
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 04:10 pm: [report]

@GreenAura You have it right equality in all respects that includes rights and acceptance of obligations.  In terms of obligations that includes national service.  Until women step up to the plate fully you are exploiting a double standard by taking the benefits without taking the responsibilities.  I am not expecting you to go out and sleep in a bunker with muddy floors where rats are on your chest when you wake up in the morning; but you can serve in Americorps, or the Peace Corps, or the Public Health Service or public schools, or a bunch of other ways. Freedom has a price if you aren’t paying, quit complaining. This goes for young men who expect their privileges with out paying the PRICE as well. There are eight names every woman should know: Sharon Lane 23W 112, Pamella Donovan 53W 043, Annie Graham 48W 112, Mary Klinker 1W122, Carol Drazba 5E 046, Elizabeth Jones 5E 047, Elinor Alexander BSM 31E 008, and Hedwig Orlowski BSM 31E 015. These women had an obligation to the nation and didn’t cop out. Nor did their sisters in arms who went and were lucky enough to come back.  Those women were drafted just like 2,000,000 young men and they served.  They earned the right to be a feminist not Betty Friedan or Bela Abzug.  We have had lots of young women who have served in many ways since then.  They have earned the right to be feminists.  Too many are like the Dick Chaney-Rush Limbaugh ChickenHawk type of patriot.  Those two copped out by using II-S deferments and then criticize others’ patriotism who made the sacrifice. Old song “If you want to sing the blues, you’ve gotta pay your dues, and you know that don’t come easy”. Otherwise you are the pot calling the kettle black.

Now one comment on family violence that is an issue of national health and safety and should more than just a feminist issue it should be every one’s issue.

joesnap
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 07:16 pm: [report]

When I identify as a Democrat, that’s because there’s a set of issues on which I agree with most Democrats. You could say I’m an advocate for that set of issues.

So for feminism, I could be a feminist, ultimately I’d say yes. I’m just thinking, which set of feminist issues are you asking me about? That’s the real question.

But regardless, we’ll likely choose from our gut feeling, based on whatever associations got cooked up about the term.

PinkRanger
wrote on July 9 2009 @ 07:40 pm: [report]

@ the old man: “They earned the right to be a feminist”

So…........I have to “earn” the right to ask for respect, say in the workplace, even though my male peers recieve it free of charge? And intellectuals, activists, and freethinkers, such as Betty Friedan, aren’t worthy of this respect because they have not served in the military even though they are pioneers of their respective fields?

nice.

BlueGarnet
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 07:06 am: [report]

One of my favourite pieces by Tomato Nation’s Sars is called “Yes, You Are” (found here http://tomatonation.com/?p=677). I send it to people now and then when I get that “Oh I like being equal to men, able to vote and work outside the home, but I’d *never* call myself a Feminist” #&@$% from *women* nevermind men.

moonblossom
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 09:37 am: [report]

I dated a man who was not a feminist. I even married him. And I am happy to report I also divorced him!

Jessalyn
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 09:47 am: [report]

This is like one of those surveys that ask how likely you’d be to vote for a presidential candidate that disagreed with you on key issues, like abortion or same-gender marriage. Most people have an issue that’s a deal-breaker for them, and when it comes to relationships, I think this one’s mine.

I don’t need a guy I date to label himself a feminist, since it’s easy to understand why people wouldn’t want to be associated with that “brand,” as your boyfriend said, Jessica. But I can’t imagine being happy with someone who didn’t share at least the basic belief that men and women are equal, and that I am fully capable of doing, understanding and thinking everything he is (within reasonable gender limits, like the fact that I cannot pee standing up and he cannot give birth to a baby, etc.).

I’ve dated one guy I would classify as not feminist in his views. It lasted approximately a month, in college, and remains one of those “what was I thinking??” episodes of my life. This was a guy who got disgruntled when I suggested points he could address in a paper he was having trouble writing and, in all seriousness, tried to convince me after about three weeks that if I didn’t sleep with him, he would be physically ill. Not what any self-respecting woman needs in her life.

My last boyfriend, on the other hand, kept an “I [heart] pro-choice girls” pin I picked up at a NARAL luncheon on his backpack even after we broke up, and when I gave it to him discussed with me his concern that some women might find it offensive because they might think he was suggesting he liked pro-choice girls because he wouldn’t have to worry about getting them pregnant, rather than because he believed in a woman’s right to choose. He never called himself a feminist, but his views matched my particular brand of feminism, and it made our relationship a great one. In my mind, dating someone who doesn’t share the core of those views (healthy debate is another thing entirely) is “settling,” and that won’t make anyone happy in the long run.

snap
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 10:14 am: [report]

i don’t think i WOULD date a man who is a feminist.  yeah, i want him to be for equality and all that, but he better believe in opening doors and getting the check!

Jessalyn
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 10:44 am: [report]

@um no - there’s a difference between being anti-feminist and being chivalrous/polite. Sure, a guy picking up a check is nice, but no one, guy or girl, should be expected to pick up every check. And there’s no reason people - men and women - shouldn’t open doors, that’s just being considerate of the people around you. I feel good when a guy holds a door for me or offers me his seat on the subway (and I expect it to some extent on a date), but if there’s an older man around, I’m liable to reverse the behavior because a man 60-65+ is more likely to need someone to hold a door for him or offer him a seat than a healthy 24-year-old.

mlyway
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 07:28 pm: [report]

Feminism is something I abhor. I do not like many aspects of it. I feel that many times, the women who call themselves feminists are truly seeking more power, not equality with men. Some feminists are man-haters too. I believe in equality—I really do. But if a woman who truly wants equality with men, I think it should be called an ‘equalist’. In fact many men I have talked to like that idea because they too agree that too many feminists are looking to assert their power over men. Yes of course, for a long time, men have been in control of women in many aspects. But that does not make it fair for us women to do the same.

PinkRanger
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 12:26 am: [report]

@mlyway: you’re making generalizations. Sounds like you’re a feminist to me, whether you like the label or not.

mlyway
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 08:44 am: [report]

Yes, I am making generalizations. My point was that there are feminists who do not believe in actual equality. And I don’t want to be labeled under such an umbrella term. Some feminists take things to the extreme. I believe in equality, but not just in terms of men and women, but in other aspects of life. Plus, feminists don’t seem to be complaining when they have the upper hand. There are not men preaching about ‘masculinism’. Instead when things are unequal, they talk about the unfairness, and the inequality about it.

theoldman
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 01:31 pm: [report]

@PinkRanger the point is not every one has paid an equal price of admission. If you are comparing a situation where all of you are just out of school and all have the same qualifications your point is valid. My point is that rarely happens.  If for example, you have a veteran or other person who has completed certain government sanctioned service(Peace Corps), your gender becomes completely irrelevant. They are deemed to have made a greater sacrifice and contribution so they move ahead of you regardless of gender. The social contract is that you are entitled to get from society according to what you have put in. There is no better example of the folly of “entitlement” based on class than GW Bush. He got into the Texas Air National Guard despite not meeting the required 1 combat tour in VietNam.  He escaped the draft.

The question becomes not whether you should get special consideration because you are a woman even though you may not have all the qualifications;  but rather you should get equal consideration regardless of gender if you have all the same qualifications. Hence my snide remark about the chickenhawks and Cheney and Limbaugh questioning patriotism.

retro chic
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 02:15 pm: [report]

To answer, Yes. If he’s a living example of feminism in his actions.

I don’t think it matters what you call yourself, getting stuck in the inertia of labels and debate (I refuse to label myself about anything). I think it’s important to live by example – whatever you ID with (the essence of third wavers) – by wearing it on your sleeve, in little everyday situations and rituals.

Anyone who’s a teacher or knows one would cosign the value of modified “teachable moments” for peers, elders and kids. To me, there are so many ways to inject these at work, with family, and public situations that leave an impression. Being in service to others thru outreach and volunteerism in specific areas of interest can be fun and reaffirming.

I think of it as pollinating, a little here, a little there. Over a life, it’s quite a lot. Labels and debate are intellectual matters for the academics – but, everyday actions are what bring human understanding and actual change, the presumed goal, I hope.

Even if you think it doesn’t make an impact, it does. There will always be the gurus and academic labelers, the radical revolutionaries, but mostly it will be where most of us live in the “unsexy” mundane middle that get things done. Those are the feminist men we want in our lives. If you’re raising a few eyebrows along the way, it means you’re doing it right. cheers

@mlyway:
Don’t limit yourself and get stuck in stereotypes.
http://feminism.suite101.com/article.cfm/stereotypes_about_feminism

develange
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 07:49 pm: [report]

men and women are not equal, but that doesn’t mean one is better than the other. “Equality” ignores all the complications and differences in the definitions of man and woman. It isn’t just “woman isn’t equal to man,” it’s also “man isn’t equal to woman.”

I also would have liked there to be a definition in this article, but for me, feminism includes respect, compassion, open mindedness. Vague, I know.

YES to equal pay and rights, etc, but there are so many differences in identity that equality can’t apply to all aspects.

tishfish44
wrote on July 11 2009 @ 08:18 pm: [report]

I can definitively say I would NOT date a man who described himself as “anti-feminist.” That’s for sure.

writergirl
wrote on July 12 2009 @ 05:32 am: [report]

Dated him. Married him.  No plans on divorcing him.

Matter of fact I shudder to think what would happen if I relayed a favorite quote of his regarding feminisim.  My profile would be suspended for sure.

But just because he doesn’t call himself a feminist, or is even close to calling himself a feminist, doesn’t mean he doesn’t respect me, my intelligence or the choices I make in my life. 

He believes in equal pay for equal work, thinks a woman can perform any job as adequately as a man but also believes that equality has to follow down to all aspects of the job.  So if a man in his company has a baby—that guy can stay home for six weeks if he wants, but he’d better be prepared to answer the phone and emails.  They believe the same thing if a WOMAN in his company has a baby.  If you want equality, you have to take all aspects of equality.  (And no, they are not in violation of the family medical leave act.  I checked.  Twice.)

He has a deep-seated aversion to child abuse and abuse of women—but I don’t think that is just a feminist belief….its called humanity and at its core a basic respect for life. 

He doesn’t believe in abortion, but doesn’t think the procedure should be outlawed.  He thinks women should serve front line in the armed forces.

So is he a feminist?  No, but if you want equality, he’ll give it to you.

BlueGarnet
wrote on July 12 2009 @ 07:05 am: [report]

@writergirl - what does your husband think feminism is?

the witching well
wrote on July 12 2009 @ 08:48 am: [report]

Wow, am I thrilled to read this column, and hear a pageful of wonderful women embrace their essential selves and point out how the world is wide open to all of us.

Many years ago my 19-year-old self went to the N.o.w. Convention with the idea that the world is too great a place for people to EVER waste time putting themselves into cages which deny their right to choose to pursue their talents and skills in the real time of their lives on our wonderful planet.

I believed that people are NOT their genitals, it’s their brains and their passions and their souls that are their beacons for who they are, and how they want to pursue their lives/careers/interests. No matter who they are. No matter what they are. No matter which culture they come from. No matter what age they are. No matter who they choose to marry (or not).

Back then at that convention I dreamed of a world where a young Japanese girl can proudly sing country-western songs in a cowboy bar in Homestead, Texas, and the good old boys nod and say, “You know, that gal sure knows her way around a cowboy tune!”

Or a yound black man puts his hand over his eyes and sobs at Beetoven’s Eroica Symphony and the audience nods and whispers, “music lovers…”

Or a white woman of good family cheerfully fixes your car’s engine because since she was 5 she’s been taking apart every machine she could get her hands on, dreaming at night of spark plugs and revved RPM’s.

I dreamed of a world that collectively would stand up to shout, “Hey, we don’t have to be cultural stereotypes! We’re FREE! Free to choose! Free to build our lives to what we aspire to! FREE to be the best people we are!”

I believe that men have a brain. I believe that women have a brain. Little boys have a brain. Little girls have a brain. And all those brains are good things for humanity in general, because together, in an educated fashion, we can create a wonderful open home for ourselves on this planet. And perhaps we will also head off into the stars together, each of us being the best person we can be in our life.

I am a woman but like most men in human history, I’ve lived a life where equality sometimes has its upsides and its downsides; a life where sometimes things are fair and sometimes they’re not. I’ve made my own choices, every minute since I was 19, and like most men in human history, I own those choices, I claim them, I’m responsible for them, and I have to live with them when you point them out. Sometimes I was smart, and sometimes, well, maybe you’d call me stupid? But oh well. At all times, I’ve been ME making my choices, and LOVING the option I’ve had to make that choice!

That is what feminism was all about, for me. It was always about PEOPLE liberation from the chains of expectation based on we look like, FREEDOM from people judging us based on where we came from, or what color we are; Freedom to be who we are despite what we might look like to you on the outside.

Call me a crazy old woman—I don’t care—I still believe in human people being free to choose their lives and make their choices. People EVERYWHERE on the planet have a right to their own personal idea of how they will find happiness in their life. Then they inherit the responsibility for that choice. That’s why I attended that N.O.W. convention back in the 1970s. I accept the responsibilities that go along with my personal freedom.

marv3mania
wrote on July 12 2009 @ 09:10 am: [report]

I want men and women to be on equal footing. I want people to have equal access to opportunities regardless of sex. Why does that need a label? Why does believing in what is just and fair need to be branded? I respect anyone who embraces the feminism label, but I prefer to not be labeled for following what we accept as a basic tenant of human rights.

Christa426
wrote on July 12 2009 @ 09:51 am: [report]

I met this guy some seven months ago, and he is near-perfect.  I’m a black female, and he’s a white male, so the fact that he is able to put himself into perspective and see the issues I deal with as being a black female in this society is amazing.  He is so incredibly open-minded about so many things, and he isn’t just all-talk.  He’s an ex frat brother, so he has picked up some not-so-nice things (like saying “retarded”), but he always corrects himself and says he is working on it.  I appreciate the fact that he recognizes his flaws more than anything.  Even when I told him I was a feminist and that I am focusing my major on gender and women’s studies, he seemed to be down.

But then I’ve been noticing more subtle things he says that point to sexism on his part.  It’s nothing major, but it is noticeable and it does bother me.  I do point it out, and we’re not dating, so I don’t really have to deal with it, but he is my good friend and I have a thing for him, but the fact that he isn’t clearly aware of his sexist ways, and the fact that I am very much a feminist makes me re-think my crush.  It’s just upsetting that he is self-aware in every other way but this.

But to answer your original question, no, I don’t think I could date a man who didn’t at least acknowledge these things and identify with the feminist views.

Christa426
wrote on July 12 2009 @ 10:13 am: [report]

@theoldman I don’t believe in war.  Period.  I am not a fan of violence.  While I respect the fact that so many men and women risked or gave their lives to fight for freedom in this nation, I also respect the fact that so many men and women did the same while NOT in the military.  Almost every fight for civil rights (not just the black civil rights movement, but the first and second waves, along with the fight for civil rights by various ethnicities) have risked lives—and most of them in a peaceful manner.  Do you know how many people died in the black civil rights protests?  And most, if not all, were peaceful.  Ever heard of what was done to the women of the first wave of feminism who marched and stood outside the white house, peacefully fighting for suffrage?  They weren’t treated so well, and this all done by their fellow “patriots”—not people from other nations.

I think that with the way our world is set up, yes, we need a military and some strong men and women to take part.  And I think it’s great that people join service corps to help those in need.  But I also have an incredible amount of respect for anyone who fights for freedom WITHIN a nation that clearly isn’t allowing it.  We say we are the land of the free and home of the brave, but we have proven time and time again that we are not.  I am taken aback by those who have the courage to not only educate themselves, but then use that education and knowledge to fight for their beliefs.  Now, being the biased liberal (near-socialist) that I am, I am more moved by those fighting for liberal and feminist causes, but still.  Betty Freidan, Audre Lorde, Gloria Steinem, bell hooks, Lucy Burns, Alice Paul, and so many others fought with knowledge, which, to me, if so very important.  And I think it is a ridiculous argument to say that they haven’t “earned” their right to freedom.  And as someone responded to you, it is clearly unfair that women have to earn this right while men have it for free.

writergirl
wrote on July 12 2009 @ 06:35 pm: [report]

@BlueGarnet—I have no idea, actually.  Everytime the subject comes up, I have to call halt before we get into a fight over it.

Elleohelle
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 01:32 am: [report]

I’m a humanist. That’s my term, and I’m sticking with it. Frankly, “feminism,” as a term sounds so sexist, and the general definition of feminists is women who would get up in arms if a group of men ever founded ‘masculinism,’ despite their own term supposedly defining equality. I don’t think that fighting for women’s rights works anymore, at least not the way it did when women were more literally below men, and needed to show their strength. It’s time for a change of consciousness, not necessarily a change of roles, and the feminist philosophy just doesn’t agree with my own, for a number of reasons I won’t go into, lest my comment becomes tl, and leaves everyone dr.

aroth
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 02:06 am: [report]

I believe in equality between the sexes.  If that makes me a feminist, then fine, I don’t really care what the label is.  I don’t see why it should make a difference what label a person identifies as, so long as their actual views are reasonable. 

Besides, there are plenty of women who identify as “feminists” who are really just male chauvinists in reverse.  They care less about equality than they do about attaining a kind of superiority over men.  And they don’t really deserve the credit of the label in the first place, since they are applying its ideas incorrectly.

plasticrose
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 02:40 am: [report]

I wouldn’t mind if a man had reservations using the ‘feminist’ label as long as he believed in the basic principles of feminism - i.e. that all women are human beings, and deserve legal rights, the right to vote, abortion rights, workplace rights, access to comprehensive sex education and contraception, and protection from violence, sexual harassment, oppression, discrimination and rape. In other words, that women are capable of thinking rationally, and have the right to make their own choices and decisions about their own lives, without being persecuted for it either by men or by other women.

Coral
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 08:25 am: [report]

@plasticrose: If you believe that all women should have abortion rights, then that is not ‘feminism’ or whatever label you want to call it. That is being pro-choice. There are plenty of ‘feminists’ who are pro-life.

BlueGarnet
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 09:08 am: [report]

@writergirl: it sounds a little like he just doesn’t like the label. I could be wrong, obviously, but maybe he has the idea that feminism is anti-male?

“equal pay for equal work, thinks a woman can perform any job as adequately as a man” - this fits with the dictionary definition of feminism as the theory of political/economic/social equality of the sexes.

B1ll
wrote on July 13 2009 @ 11:43 am: [report]

@The Old Man – by your definition, the majority of people living in the United States have not earned the right to be equal.  Such thoughts do a disservice to the memory of most of the young people who have lost their lives serving in the military.  Most of them served to protect equal rights for all.

@Tattooed_Redhead – Sorry if I didn’t express my thoughts clearly.  There are so many “definitions” for feminism that I think the label, by itself, is confusing.  Just look at the disagreements expressed above.  I think it is more significant that a person’s behavior shows they believe that women and men should be treated equally in all aspects of life rather than their just saying “I am a feminist”.  Remember the old saw; “Actions speak louder than words”.

Old Pup
wrote on July 14 2009 @ 11:15 am: [report]

Been calling myself a feminist since the 60s. Most of my arguments have been with females and have been 1)a male cannot be a feminist, 2)feminism is not feminine and it is wrong.
My daughters have said I am a radical feminist. Very few males care about my support of feminism. I have also been called a male chauvinist for showing common courtesy. Also when I was dating the term feminist was of no help in getting dates.
Why feminism has gotten to mean something greater than equality is something I do not understand.

BlueVibe
wrote on July 15 2009 @ 08:02 am: [report]

I’m with B1ll—how does the guy act around women?

That a guy doesn’t actually call himself a feminist means nothing if he treats women as intelligent human beings.  I’ve known guys who said they were feminists and then proceeded to over-identify and try to co-opt my experiences as a woman.  You’re not a woman!  As soon as you start patronizing me, you give yourself away as a faux-feminist.

I know lots of true male feminists—guys who do not make assumptions about women based on the fact that they’re women.  Guys who are not afraid to talk to women about anything, because they do not assume that women expect them to follow male stereotypes.  I’m not sure I’ve ever heard *any* of them call themselves feminists.