Bad Wife Or Bad Mother: Which Will You Choose?

Rose
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 01:53 pm: [report]

I think being a good wife will only make you a better mother, but I mean a truly better one, not one who is martyred and obsessed with her kids, but a healthy, balanced human being.  And why should we ever have to choose or prioritize our love?  My love for my kids vs my husband is as different as my kids vs my mother, or my friends vs my husband - write a book about that.  No one would, because it doesn’t tap the fount of societal judgement heaped on women who happen to be mothers.

retro chic
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 03:06 pm: [report]

Hm. My daughter poses these same fictitious do-or-die scenarios, always ending in “...which one would you choose?” My answer is always “There is no need to choose, and don’t ever feel you need to.”
Besides, each type of relationship (parent/child or mate) infuses and informs the other. It’s not either/or, but a constant organic process where each relationships’ needs/rewards ebb and flow, like any other life-affirming natural process. Anything out of balance, will always go awry… eventually. I’m very lucky to have had the love of my life also be the father of my child. Strangely, my satisfying relationship with him made me a better parent (for her); my motherhood’s fulfillment made me a better woman (for him). He felt the same way, too. And so it goes…

Lynn
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 03:42 pm: [report]

Until I grew up and become more a part of “women’s circles” than children’s or teenagers’, I always just assumed that all parents felt the way this writer does. I know that my parents love me to death. But I also know that, forced to make a choice, my parents would choose to save each other from a fiery building over me or my brothers. And I think that’s how it should be.

Children grow up, move out, get married and have kids of their own. Your spouse is the one person you are bound to for the rest of your life. If you love your kids more than him, what happens once they’ve grown up and left? Is living with your husband for the rest of your life a second-best consolation prize? That’s a heartbreaking thought.

I never felt unloved or uncherished by my parents just because I knew they loved each other more than me. I heard a quote once that the best thing a man can do for his children is to love their mother. I’ve never been able to get that out of my head because it is so true and so true to my life.

writergirl
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 05:02 pm: [report]

If, God forbid, the house was burning and I had to attempt to save either child or husband, it would be my son.  And not because I love him more, but because I honestly can’t imagine not attempting to.  Saving your child—protecting your child—is instinctual. 

And not to sound all high and mighty, but that is *truly* a concept you cannot grasp until you have your own.

As for mother’s relationship with their children, I agree with Rose—being a good wife makes you a good mother.  It isn’t about loving either one more, but a balance between the two. 

My husband and I explained it to our child like this the other day.  We’re going away together during the summer and when the child asked why we explained that it was important for mommy and daddy to stay married that they go out to dinner and go away together so that they can stay in love and stay married.

And I agree that that is true.  But it doesn’t mean I love my child any less.  It just means I love him enough to make sure my relationship with my husband is a priority.

EarthGoddess
wrote on May 15 2009 @ 08:43 pm: [report]

@writergirl: Bravo! I love what you said!

I was married to my daughter’s father very unhappily for nearly 5 years. During that time, I was an adequate mother, but not a GOOD one. Since I’ve remarried to a man I love more than I could have ever imagined, I am a GOOD mother and it shows in so many ways. Being a GOOD wife and a GOOD mother are not mutually exclusive, as each relationship often is reflected in the other. However, if forced to choose in some horrific and unlikely scenario, I would save my daughter hands-down and my husband knows it. I doesn’t mean I love him any less, or make me a bad wife, it makes me a woman who has given birth to another human being that needs a chance to grow and mature into her own person. Every mother’s responsibility is to ensure that’s possible for her child(ren). It’s basic maternal instinct.

moogyboobles
wrote on May 17 2009 @ 02:50 am: [report]

Why do you have to choose? How about the man being a good husband and a good father too?
Especially when you have a new baby, this whole “breasts are for my husband thing” pisses me right off.  These men need to grow up. 
A good husband is there to help his wife be a mother.
As for sex how on earth does caring for your children well interrupt your sex life?

Shasta
wrote on May 17 2009 @ 08:54 pm: [report]

I know people who never wanted kids until they met their husbands. And I know infertile women who didn’t want to adopt because they wanedt their husbands baby, not a strangers.

As far as the burning building question - I say the child.  He’s an incarnation of your husband and the Mother Lion in you would save the child.

Moogy’s husband must be miserable. She sounds like those women Waldman is writing about.

og217
wrote on May 18 2009 @ 10:51 am: [report]

“I’m not saying Waldman isn’t brutally honest in her admission that she loves her hubby more than their kids, but I think it was an unnecessary one.”

This strikes me as the people who claim to not be homophobic with comments like “I don’t care if they’re gay, but why do they have to be so OBVIOUS?  Why can’t they just act NORMAL?”  Why is it constantly “necessary” to hear the blather of “the most important job in the world?”  Those women get to yap all day long and preach to all those within hearing range about how much they love their children, how their lives NOW have meaning, how they’ve never known a love like this, how you simply MUST have a baby to know it, etc., etc.  No one shushes them up.  Why can’t this woman say what she thinks?  She is probably tired of feeling alone in a world where husbands are just sperm donors with wallets and occasional fetchers of domestic items.  I’m in agreement with her and with Lynn.  Given the general mommy atmosphere and even these posts, it’s no wonder men do not want kids in rising numbers.  Who wants to go from the-love-of-her-life to priority #4 and all the fun that this would entail - being ignored, screamed at for not doing “his share,” and of couse a lack of sex and her interest in it which he is supposed to understand.  For a decade.  And of course he will be selfish and horrid if he doesn’t cheerfully accept all this and be thrilled with the result. 
If my partner announced to me that I was second to someone else, or that he “couldn’t chose,” I would not be with him.  I would chose him over my parents, brother, everyone.  He is my chosen life mate, that’s what a marriage is!  This child-centric cultural phenomenon is bizarre.  Just 50 years ago nowhere on earth did a whole country revolve around children.  It’s not healthy and creates whiny, neurotic, ridiculous children who believe themselves to be the center of the universe, as well as divorced parents.

EarthGoddess
wrote on May 18 2009 @ 11:14 am: [report]

@og217: I’m sorry that you’re so tired of hearing how wonderful children are. I’m sorry you feel that we mothers should be “shushed up”. I’m sorry that you feel that it’s bizarre for families to revolve around children. No, wait a minute, I’m NOT sorry at all!

I beam with pride daily that God chose me to be my daughter’s mother. It’s an honor to watch her grow and it’s filled with responsibility that I take very seriously, and enjoy tremendously. Yes, it is true that you cannot grasp it until you are a parent yourself. You mentioned that men increasingly do not want children (not sure where you got that info!) and they dislike being replaced as #1 in the lives of the women they love.  Those aren’t men ... they are BOYS who wish to remain spoiled children themselves. MEN willingly take on the additional responsibility of parenting, and learn to appreciate the quality of attention from the mother of their children, not the quantity. If that’s not the case, then they are lousy fathers who need to realize that their #1 priority should be the children as well. When you are a parent, your needs come second to that of the child(ren) you’ve been blessed with ... if each spouse is still at #1 in the household, something is very wrong. It doesn’t mean you love your spouse any less, in fact it makes you love them more, it simply means that you have grown up and realized that your child(ren) are most important.

As for my daughter, she IS the center of my universe, and will remain so until the day I die ... that’s what GOOD mothers do.

joyy
wrote on May 18 2009 @ 11:23 am: [report]

@EG: there’s a difference between families revolving around children and society at large revolving around children.  Also, it’s a pretty low blow to say any man not interested in having children is a spoiled little boy.  Once you have kids, they’re your #1 priority, but if you don’t have kids, different story.  Lousy fathers suck and don’t deserve defense, but not wanting children does not make an adult a selfish, spoiled, unloving person.

I think she was referring to the societal pressure on all women to have children, something that has been discussed on this site before but isn’t actually on task with the original post.

EarthGoddess
wrote on May 18 2009 @ 11:37 am: [report]

@joyy: I don’t see a problem with society revolving around children, but that’s just my opinion. Society is made up of families, so if families revolve around children, society will as well. Nothing wrong with that, IMHO. I didn’t mean to say that a man who doesn’t want children is a little boy. I meant that a man who has children and doesn’t rise to the occasion, or expects his partner’s life to still revolve around him, is a little boy. Maybe I didn’t make that clear. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify!

joyy
wrote on May 18 2009 @ 11:43 am: [report]

@EG: You’re right, families are an integral part of society, but as has been pointed out many times before, sometimes that notion gets so, over-inflated (? doesn’t feel like the right word, but I can’t think of anything better so eff it) that the rest of society seems to be second-tier to children/families with children, which SUCKS for the rest of us, because we’re important too.  Not more important, not less important, yet we’re often treated as second-class because of it.  At least that’s my take on @og217’s rant.

writergirl
wrote on May 18 2009 @ 02:18 pm: [report]

I took og217’s rant the same way, joyy.

So many parents are so involved in trying to be the world’s most wonderful parents, that we’ve created a herd of children who hold the rest of society hostage.

And while I don’t walk around waxing lyrical about how wonderful it is to being a parent—because while it is wonderful it is freaking hard work!—I will say there is something wrong with parents today who think that their children’s behavior has to be tolerated by all regardless of what level that behavior is.

The right for me to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose.  Same can be said for my child’s behavior.  I don’t expect you tolerate his bad behavior and will either discipline him immediately for it or remove him from the situation.  But so many parents DON’T and that is where the problem is.  It is these same parents who believe their lives need to revolve around their child’s and anything he wants, he gets.

I can’t blame people who don’t have children who cringe when the rest of us show up for breakfast or out to dinner.  Many kid’s behaviors in these situations are intolerable, but parents just make up excuses or think that the rest of the clientel have to accept the behavior because “they don’t know any better.”

That’s not fair.  To anybody.

og217
wrote on May 19 2009 @ 04:41 am: [report]

From what I understand EarthGoddess had a kid at like 20 years old with a man she is no longer with?  It just seems to me that the women who scream the loudest about the joy of parenthood and how their child is special and number one, and so on, didn’t manage to maintain their marriage / relationship.  As for the idea that more and more men don’t want children - I have no stats but I do hear that from single men and women who want to meet a guy to have kids with - how its hard.  As for families revolving around children - no they never did, not until the mid 1900’s.  Children worked the fields and took care of their siblings and roamed the streets picking pockets in bigger cities.  The entire concept that children are not small-sized adults, with different needs and psychology, only became realized in the late 1800’s.  People didn’t spend all their days shuttling junior to piano lessons and then bond over mall shopping and they sent them out on their own at 14 or so when they were deemed old enough to fend for themselves.  Just because you want to feel like you’re doing the only right thing doesn’t mean that it is in fact the only possible way to be.  Some people have children and take care of them but don’t make them their universe.  It happens, get over it.

og217
wrote on May 19 2009 @ 04:56 am: [report]

PS - I was raised by happily married parents who I think definitely valued their relationship with each other over us kids.  And you know what, I’m happily married and I’m happy for them.  I am in a different country, my brother’s moved out and now, my parents travel, go to shows, garden, and have dinner parties.  They are really enjoying having each other and no kids to give them grief / empty out their wallets, I bet.  I have friends whose mothers spend all their time trying to friend them on Facebook and throw guilt tantrums if they are not visited weekly, and called after every bowel movement. No one is happy in THAT place.  I’m sure that some people feel the purpose of their existence is to raise a child and they find a likeminded partner and are blissfully happy.  But some people just happen to have kids, raise them and carry on fulfilling the purpose of their life.  Everyone thinks their way is right and this is just a wonderful time to point out that what you do in your life is your business, and what other people do in theirs is theirs.

EarthGoddess
wrote on May 19 2009 @ 09:20 am: [report]

@og217: To each her own, but I do feel sorry for you that you were raised in a family in which you (and your siblings, if applicable) were not Number 1. That is inconceivable to me. I was raised in a family where each new generation of children is celebrated above all else. (This goes back to before the mid 1900s, btw.) I have a close relationship with my parents, whom I speak to daily, and see a few times per month despite having moved out of the area. My mother-in-law’s house is within sight of mine, and we see her frequently as well, obviously. My grandparents spoke with each of their children (5 on one side, 3 on the other) daily as well, so this is not a new concept at all. You don’t stop parenting once a child reaches 18 and/or leaves the house, IMO. You’re a parent in every sense of the word, until the day you die.

As for me being only 20 when I had my daughter, yes that’s true. I married her father shortly thereafter and we divorced almost 5 years later. The divorce was not a result of my placing her first, it was simply that we were too young and grew apart. Our daughter became the only common ground we had, and no child should grow up with unhappy parents. I am happily remarried, and my daughter lives with me and her stepfather almost full-time. He’s well aware that her needs come first, and he has adapted to that way of thinking quite nicely despite having no children of his own.

My daughter, and any future children I may be blessed with, is my universe. I wouldn’t have it any other way ... but to each her own, as I said.

LydiaRT
wrote on May 19 2009 @ 10:17 am: [report]

I have to agree with og217 on the whole kid-obssession issue…to a point.
I’ll admit it, I get a little annoyed with my formerly single, childless friends who now behave as though marriage and motherhood have brought meaning into their lives where there was none before. And it is thoroughly demeaning to me when they tell me that my life will never be truly meaningful without those things. I comprehend the idea that nothing can truly prepare you for motherhood, but omg, is it necessary to contribute your entire purpose for life to that little bundle of joy and to look down on those women who either a)aren’t interested in having it or b)just haven’t gotten there yet?
On the other hand, I have several newly child-enhanced friends who are actually fun to be around. Sure, they still extoll the incredible feats of words learned, steps taken and alphabets recited, but when the child has gone down for a nap or we’ve covered the basic updates, the conversation/activities turns back to things more common to both our lives. We chat about work, men, and the new skirt we both saw in the store that would cover a multitude of insecurities. We discuss politics and religion, local news, the newest best-sellers on the NY Times list and a whole host of other topics that go beyond the baby-news.
I’m 30, single and successful, and while I’d like to (someday) get married and have children, its not end all/be all of my life’s experience. I’m all for women being good mothers, good wives, etc, but there should be more to them than just that. Humans are complex creatures and there is no reason for a woman’s entire self-worth and interest to be so limited to one or two things/people.

jojo32
wrote on May 19 2009 @ 10:33 am: [report]

Just wanna come to EG’s defense a little.  (Not that I think you need it, girl.)  I also have a daughter and her father and I are not together.  He was one of those spoiled little boys who did not want to take responsibility for her and heaped all of it onto me.  So, did that take away from time he and I could have spent together?  Absolutely.  Is that the reason we are divorced?  Not at all. 

My daughter is absolutely the most important person in my life.  I dont know anybody personally who thinks there is anything wrong with that.  Now, that doesnt mean I hand her anything she cries for each and every day.  What it does mean is that I make her happiness and comfort a priority (within reason).  I’ve always said that I didnt bring her into this world so I could have another friend.  I’m her mother, and I am raising her with morals, values, and to be respectful.  That is my job until the day I die.  I will always be there for her to give my advice, and so on.  But I’m not trying to be her BFF.  I totally think that is bullcrap.

I would never say that people who dont have children are not “complete” or “fulfilled”.  But it is an unexplainable experience.  At least, to me. 

To sum it up…I guess if my daughter were in a burning building with ANYONE else, there is no doubt in my mind she would be the one I’d save first.  I dont know how anybody could live with themself choosing someone over their own child.

EarthGoddess
wrote on May 19 2009 @ 10:35 am: [report]

@LydiaRT: Even though I am a mom/wife and derive most of life’s joy from my daughter and husband, I am still a complete person with a full-time job and many interests. So, I guess I’m like your friends who can discuss other things, as I often do with my friends. However, I honestly don’t have any close single friends so we all have families to talk about. I don’t look down on people for not having kids, being single, etc. I just feel that sometimes proud single and childless women look down on women like me for needing my family for happiness. (Not you personally, just in general.) I wouldn’t be whole without them ... that’s just who I am.

EarthGoddess
wrote on May 19 2009 @ 11:00 am: [report]

@jojo32: Thanks Girl! I appreciate it!

I agree that I’m not meant to be my daughter’s BFF. My hubby and his mom have an “old college buddies” kinda vibe (can’t think of any other way to phrase it LOL) and it’s so weird to me. My mom’s VERY maternal, and I am too, and my mom-in-law just isn’t that way. My hubby said she’s been more like a friend since he was in his early teens. I would never want that kind of relationship with my mom, or my daughter.

Thanks again, Girlie!

og217
wrote on May 22 2009 @ 05:39 pm: [report]

My point is merely that the writer of the book discussed in this post has a right to her opinion - that her husband is more important than her kids and that he is the one she couldn’t live without, not her children.  I think that she is brave to say that, especially not as a theory, but as an actual mother, and that she is not alone.  I think her opinion is valid and that here have always been people like her and that I as a child of such a relationship am not somehow needy or damaged or desperate, but am happily married and happy that my parents have what they have.  I personally agree with her and feel sorry for the men who have been shunted off to some runner-up place.  I haven’t heard any male opinions here, which would help decide matters, I suppose.  But I do have a male friend who confided that his children have ruined his marriage and his relationship with his wife, who is just a mommy now, and how if he could, he never would have had them.  I feel sorry for him.  He didn’t sign up to be a wallet with a drivers license.

alezsu
wrote on July 26 2009 @ 01:03 pm: [report]

I don’t have kids, actually have only one friend (unmarried) who does, but I can sort of see both sides of the argument here.

I understand the powerful love that a parent has for a child, as well as the instinctive drive to care for that child, and I recognize the immense responsibilities of having a small person dependent on you, body and soul, for any period of time. So I understand how some people might think that a baby/child should be the #1 priority in their lives.

However, I STRONGLY disagree with the statement “My child’s needs always come before my own.” Many times? Certainly. Should I buy a crib before a Mercedes? Yes. Should I sacrifice my sleeping in to get you to school on time? Yes.
Should I forget about seeing the season premiere of Entourage because you would like me to take you and your friends to the premiere of Harry Potter at the mall movie theatre? Probably.
Should I stop working because you have particular food allergies that require almost-round-the-clock monitoring? Perhaps - depends on the finances and logistics of our situation.
BUT
Should I skip a doctor’s appointment because you absolutely HAVE to go to Baby Yoga class? No.
Should I turn down a meeting with my long-lost father because you are throwing a temper tantrum about the possibility of a new family member? No.
Should your father and I cancel our anniversary trip to Vegas because you are crying at Grandma & Grandpa’s house that we are leaving you? No.
Should I neglect and eventually abandon my relationships with MY friends because I have to prove that I am the bestest, most involved mom ever? Absolutely not.

I am a person, even without you here.
Now, you may be little, and I may be big, but we both have needs. And if I don’t take care of me, I can’t even begin to take care of you.

So I think that’s sort of the danger of a child-centric family, insomuch as “child-centric” means that the kids are the #1 priority always. We ALL have needs. Imagine a soccer team where only the newest players were allowed any practice time on the field. They might improve quickly and dramatically, sure, but they’d ultimately be limited by the lack of growth of the rest of the team.

We’re a family. That means we’re a team, and teammates look out for each other.

Furthermore, you don’t raise children to be children, you raise them to be adults. And if you are raising little adults who are accustomed to always being #1 no matter what, that switch won’t flip overnight. They’ll be adults who expect to always be #1, no matter what.