10 Reasons Not To Have Kids Yet…Or Ever

Perceptible
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:09 am: [report]

I have 2 kids and my bf has 3. How long a list do you want?

EastCoastMale
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:12 am: [report]

I agree that men, women or couples in general should not feel pressure to have children. I can openly admit that I don’t know if I am one way or the other on having children.

Humble Bee
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:14 am: [report]

oh yes! Amen!
My mom had 8, so that means I want 0. None. I feel like I’ve had kids already, because of helping my mom. Raising a child is such a hard task, it’s not just about clothing them and feeding them. Teaching them manners, respect, and good habbits is so diffucult. I hate changing diapers, feeding, burping, teaching them how to read! Jeez. I never ever want kids. I love kids, but I just don’t want any of my own, its just soo much. I like just being responsible for myself.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:15 am: [report]

What about that they are #&@$% expensive?

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:17 am: [report]

Oh! I forgot to say I don’t want to schlep kids around to Paris, London, Madrid, Moscow, Johannesburg, San Fransisco, Toyko, etc.—all the places I want to travel.

powplz
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:20 am: [report]

How about “I don’t want to.”  I do really like her “we have enough kids on the planet already” point, and I wish more people would adopt (or at least try) if they want kids.

retro chic
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:23 am: [report]

When you said “environment” I thought Cameron would have mentioned the steaming landfills of poopy diapers… not good for the planet. Maybe Gwyneth has that covered on her Goop site.

If someone says they don’t like kids or don’t want them… believe them! They won’t make good parents anyway, it’s too hard a job. They are better at inventing things, that hopefully will end world-poop.

sadie
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:30 am: [report]

- Because you want to make use of those last minute travel deals from Travel Zoo
- Because movie and dinner out is more fun than a PTA meeting.
- Because you want to have sex in every room of the house whenever the mood strikes
- Because you don’t spend hours at the gym toning and sweating to wreck it all with 20lbs or more of pregnancy weight
- Because you want to sleep in
- Because you want to stay out late
- Because you don’t want plastic baby stuff all over your house or in your yard
- Because buying handbags and shoes is more fun than buying strollers and diapers
- Because you enjoy being the most important person to your SO
- Because you don’t need the anxiety of YOUR daughter texting nudes of herself to boys in middle school
- Because you don’t want to worry about your kid raiding your medicine cabinet for drugs, taking up crystal meth, getting pregnant/impregnating someone, driving drunk, or generally getting up to no good.
- Because kids can get injured, sometimes seriously, in the blink of an eye. And you will blame yourself forever and never get over it.
- Because by the time your kid is ready for college you’ll have to live in a cardboard box to pay tuition
- One word: Episiotomy
- Two words: Nipple infections
- Because your kid might, for reasons completely beyond your control, grow up to be a total sociopath and kill kittens and co-eds
- Because there actually isn’t any guarantee your kid will visit you or take care of you in your golden years.
- Because that totally annoying, eardrum-shattering, shrill scream kids produce probably does cause hearing damage.

I can think of 1000s of reasons I do not want a kid ever. I have never wanted one. When I was in my 20s people would smugly tell me I’d change my mind. Now that I am in my 30s and married people just look at me like I am crazy, but they’ve mostly stopped arguing with me about it. To each their own. Those of us who do not want kids are a growing contingent. I know dozens of kid-free couples who never want to be parents. I think there’s less social pressure than there used to be and people are finally admitting they don’t want them. It’s for the best, I think a lot of people who didn’t want them had them in the past and shouldn’t have.

Perceptible
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:36 am: [report]

@sadie, that’s a great list. Are you sure you don’t have kids already? That is ALL TRUE!

With 5 kids to worry about I can honestly say that no one should have kids unless they really, really, REALLY want them and are prepared to be completely selfless for the next quarter century. (That said, I do completely adore my kids!)

miss game
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:41 am: [report]

Wow, Sadie.  I totally respect your decision not to have kids.  But you sound terribly selfish.  I almost feel bad for your SO… if you have one?

powplz
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:41 am: [report]

@retro chic - do you really believe all people who choose not to have kids would be terrible parents?  really?  because all people who do have kids are great parents, right?  Not wanting children has nothing to do with one’s *capacity* to parent.  Look at all the people who have unplanned pregnancies but end up doing just fine raising their kids.

brandyalexander
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:42 am: [report]

Thank you for curing my nearing-30-baby-craving.  I am not being sarcastic.  You seriously cured it.  Thanks
Although, I would say that #2 is pretty much untrue for anyone with cats.

sadie
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:46 am: [report]

I am married and my huband also prefers late nights, sleeping in, vacations, toys for himself, etc. Neither of us wants kids. If that makes us both selfish, so be it. We are happy with our life choices and we aren’t hurting anyone else with our decision to not have kids.

Humble Bee
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:47 am: [report]

I agree JOyy, My mom had 8 unplanned pregnancies, haha. and I can say she’s a great mother.

EarthGoddess
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:54 am: [report]

My daughter was unplanned. I was young and didn’t want children. Now I realize that God knew that I needed a child in my life, and I cannot imagine life without her. If I didn’t have her, everything would be so empty and meaningless. To be honest, I get much more joy from her happiness than my own. Her father and I are divorced, and when she’s with him, I don’t know what to do with myself. My husband says the house has a strange feeling when it’s not filled with her laughter and she’s not here to play with, so it’s not just me. Most of the Summer she’ll be with her father, something I’m going to court to change in the Fall, and the thought of it is filling me with depression and dread. A childless life is so shallow and selfish to me.

lilrockgoddess4u
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:55 am: [report]

I agree with Sadie on every point.  Oh and I have tat’s on my ribs/stomach that hurt too damn much to ruin!!!

jojo32
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:56 am: [report]

Well this is certainly one way to help curb the over population problem isnt it.  Everybody stop procreating!  But what does this say for those of us who DID grow up just knowing we wanted to be parents.  I always knew I wanted to have kids…
-I still stay up til 3am if I want to.  Lucky for me my parents are effing fantastic and baby sit if I need a night out.
-Uh, nothing in my closet has barf or poop on it.
-I always have wipes and or snacks in my purse.  I get hungry and I’m kind of a slob besides.
-My bras are not ‘nursing bras’ or ‘push up bras’.  Just regular VS bras.  Sexy and comfy.  How can you beat that?
-You sure can have that second mojito.  It’s called “pump and dump”.
-If I wore 4 inch heels I would be well over 6’.  Scary.
-I have never had a desire to spend “all day having sex”.  I would need to be iced down after that.
-Nothing makes me feel more warm and fuzzy inside than calling my daughter “my baby girl”.  No guy calling me ‘baby’ will ever compare.
-My daughter and I rock out to everything from Pink to Vampire Weekend in the car.  What can I say?  She’s got a cool mom so she’s a cool kid.
-It’s a vagina.  It leaks sometimes.  No biggie.

Just felt the need to defend my stance as a mom.  It doesnt mean I have no life.  It means I created a new life and I enjoy it.  That doesnt mean there aren’t times when I long for the days of having no responsibility.  But ultimately it is the BEST decision I ever made and one I will never ever regret.

The end.

VannaMarie
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:57 am: [report]

Thanks for that, @Sadie! My husband and I are undecided on the children issue, and that list covers MANY, but not nearly ALL the reasons my husband and I are unsure. And @Miss Game—I think that Sadie is just being honest! These are all valid points on how unappealing children can be to someone who might not want to have children. And as she said, there are sooo many more reasons. There are plenty of ways to have a fulfilling, well-rounded life without children. I agree with @Jessica Wakeman and Cameron’s reasoning too.

If I were to accidentally get pregnant tomorrow (knocks-on-wood) I believe I would do just fine, and be a good-enough parent, but I believe I would be a better parent if I knew for sure I wanted kids before getting knocked-up. Parenting is a BIIIGGG undertaking for someone who has other priorities too… Maybe someday, but not today.

Amen to the changing societal norms!!

EarthGoddess
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:06 am: [report]

@jojo32: Love it!!! Well said ... my life has only improved since my daughter. It makes life more fulfilling, not less. It’s everything you had before plus so much more happiness and love. What could possibly be bad about that?

powplz
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:08 am: [report]

Lists are terrible - they just make a lot of parents get defensive and those of us who don’t want children sound shallow and petty.  If you want kids, have them.  If you don’t want kids, don’t!

jojo32
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:12 am: [report]

I’m not getting defensive.  I’m simply showing the other side of the coin.  It seems like people who dont have kids sometimes think that those of us who do have some kind of shell of our former selves walking around.  I just dont agree with that.

Trust me, I am a true believer that some people definitely should NOT have kids.  My sister is probably one of those.  She doesnt really have a desire to have kids, knows she doesnt have the patience for it, knows she’s selfish, knows she cares alot more about her hair, makeup, shoes and free time than she does about watching Dora for 28 months straight.  Does that make me think she is some kind of freak?  No.  I love her.  And to me, if you know all these things about yourself and you still choose to have kids because of ‘societal pressure’ than THAT makes you more selfish and stupid than anything.

Live and let live would certainly make this world a better place tho…

SpecialK
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:12 am: [report]

I’ve posted this before and I’ll say it till the cows come home…. It’s Your life & if kids are what you want and you are willing to make the sacrifices - Go For It…I decided long ago that although I would make a terrific parent my maternal drive wasn’t more than my drive to get what I want out of this life - say it’s selfish if you want but remember that it’s my life to live - not yours.  I am close to a big ol’ birthday number and I do not regret my decision at all. Bottom line - Don’t let other people tell you how to live your life.
I always tell people my biggest reason for not having kids is that I can leave my dogs at home and not get arrested for it!

retro chic
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:17 am: [report]

joyy, Uh-uh. There ya go, all incendiary again, saying things no one said, and changing meanings to suit your foaming attacks on people on this site. I didn’t see your post ‘cause I was already busy reading the article (I posted about the same time you did). I will not get into this skirmish with you, it’s ridiculuous.
My point, there is nothing derog in my intent or words, just the comment that as a parent I can make. No amount of good skills and dutiful love can surmount the hidden resentment that some parents can and do feel if they knew they never wanted them. The child feels that resentment or may be abused, and is harmful to them. That’s all, and no more to it.

The honest nonparents I know devote themselves to worldly pursuits that improve the lives of children and I’m very grateful for that.

Humblebee, unplanned is far different than making a stand and saying “I don’t want them.” No doubt your mom is a good parent, I enjoy your comments. And I believe you have done your tour of duty in the childrearing dept, fwiw, and I wouldn’t want kids either!

powplz
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:21 am: [report]

@jojo32 - no, I get showing the other side of the coin, I’m just really irritated by responses that come back alleging that not wanting children = the makings of a terrible parent, when one has nothing to do with the other. 

I know you weren’t the one syaing that, but I figure a lot of people who don’t want or just delay having kids often are thinking ahead, trying to get/keep their finances in order and gain/keep control over the quality of life they enjoy, things that would be great qualities to bring to buildling a family.

Yes, some people shouldn’t have children because they would be terrible parents, and some of those people know they don’t want kids.  But terrible people have kids every day and abuse/mistreat them.  I like the original point of the article, I think the list is stupid, but women shouldn’t be shunned or judged for not wanting to have kids.

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:22 am: [report]

@Miss Game It’s not fair to call @Sadie, or anyone else who posts here, “selfish” for preferring to do the things they enjoy instead of having kids.

40yrolddad
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:27 am: [report]

goodbye 2-seat convertible, hello minivan!

goodbye in-town townhouse/condo walking (/stumbling) distance from great restaurants, hello McMansion in the suburbs w/decent schools (or alternatively goodbye $15K/yr/kid for private school)!

goodbye nice restaurants, hello Chik-fil-A playground!

goodbye wine tasking & bed/breakfasts in Mendocino, hello Disneyworld!

re #2:  when our son was ~6 mo old my parents were going to watch him so we could go to a nice dinner.  like a complete & utter f-tard I decided to burp him in a $95 Nordstrom dress shirt.  now, mind you, I not COMPLETELY stupid - I had 3 burp cloths spread/overlapping the front/back of my shoulder & outside arm but after a few pats on the back he quickly flipped his head to the side and unloaded on my cuff/lower sleeve - I SWEAR it was intentional!

all that said I _DO_ love mine & couldn’t imagine not having them…

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:30 am: [report]

@40yrolddad: I actually promised myself that if I ever owned a minivan I would kill myself.

Queen Frostine
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:36 am: [report]

How about, “because I just don’t know if I’m up to the challenge and responsibility?”

I know myself and I don’t honestly know if I’m capable of handling all the additional stress, routines, financial burdens, schedules, physical demands, challenges and emotional issues that come along with having a child and successfully raising it into an adult. I see what parents around me go through and I don’t know if I can do that.

Having freedom, flexibility and independence are the key ingredients of my inner happiness. And it’s not that I’m a selfish person. I love helping others and do a lot of selfless acts of love, kindness and charity. I volunteer a lot and I love to help out in my community. But being tied down and losing my sense of freedom would make me insane.

likeOMGkbye
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 11:48 am: [report]

@EarthGoddess, “A childless life is so shallow and selfish to me” is a pretty bold statement. Just because I may not want children later in life (still on the fence at this point in life, an engagement/marriage is still in order) doesn’t make me shallow. There are so many kids out there to adopt even, so if I don’t want to deal with pregnancy and labor, does that make me shallow? I’m still helping needy children.

Even if I never have kids, I help many causes, so I highly doubt I’m self-ish. If people want to have kids, go for it! Some people just shouldn’t ever have kids period (yet they always are the ones who just pop them out consistently aren’t they?) and some people are born to be parents. Its a personal choice and they shouldn’t have to worry about being judged.

Personally, I just want lots of puppies. A houseful of doggies seems more up my alley than a house full of babies. I will totally be that crazy dog lady and be perfectly content!

cattgirl813
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 12:20 pm: [report]

My reason is that I just don’t have a maternal instinct.  I’ve never been very comfortable around children - not even when I was a child.  Having a child just because society says if you have the equipment to make ‘em then you should have ‘em seems to me to be shallow and thoughtless.  Children are special gift and should be wanted by the parents who have them, not tolerated because you have the capability to reproduce.

subpar
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 12:51 pm: [report]

@likeOMGkbye

I agree 100%. How is it selfish to not want children, yet it’s perfectly acceptable to pop out biological kids when there are plenty to adopt? I can understand the desire to have your own kids, but it’s not more or less selfish than anyone else’s desire to adopt or not have children.

I do want kids by the way, just not yet.

LostInStars
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 12:55 pm: [report]

I don’t want kids. For a lot of the reasons Sadie listed. I agree with SpecialK, I have my own goals. I know if I had a kid, they would be my whole life, that’s how I think it should be, it’s a full time job. But I want my life. It’s the only one I get. I respect the couples that never want to have children, and I respect the couples that follow the marriage/kids/house with a white fence routine. It takes a lot of different families to make an interesting world. Personally though, a huge reason I don’t want to have kids, is that I don’t like how a lot of women act after they have kids. Like there is no other life but the life of a mother, and everyone else is selfish and un-enlightened. Kids aren’t for everyone! I don’t want to become that person.

subpar
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 12:56 pm: [report]

And in re: CD’s comment, there ARE too many people. Curtailing the overpopulation of this planet could potentially solve a ton of problems we face: hunger, global warming, quick depletion of natural resources. It would do a world of good if the birth rate went down.

brandyalexander
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 01:10 pm: [report]

@ Subpar and CD- dittos!  I’m ok with maybe replacing myself someday, but the population growth is out of control.
Also, a note on selfishness.  To me, a behaviour cannot be selfish unless it is to the detriment of someone else; i.e., if you were hungry and I ate all the food in the hosue, then it would be selfish.  If I was having children and not caring for them, well, that would be selfish.  But who am i hurting by not having children?  Hypothetical babies?  Nah, my choice is a victimless crime

EarthGoddess
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 01:14 pm: [report]

@likeOMGkbye: I am a dog lover myself, so a house full of puppies sounds great to me! I don’t define “having children” as physically giving birth to them. Adoption makes you a parent, as well. One of my friends from childhood and her sister were adopted after their parents passed away in a car accident. Their adoptive mother was one of the most selfless and devoted people I have ever known. She was also a single mom, and put her entire life on hold to raise them, until they were fully grown and married. Then she began dating and socializing ... and she was lucky to find the love of her life in middle age and get married herself. She never gave birth to children, but she was one of the best parents I’ve ever seen. I’m just saying that I don’t understand why someone would deny themselves the joy of having children, biologically or not.

powplz
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 01:21 pm: [report]

@EarthGoddess - because everyone is different!  Kind of like the “why would anyone not want to be married” thing   Also, not having kids makes it WAY more fun (and affordable) to spoil and appreciate other peoples’ kids : )

emflow
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 01:46 pm: [report]

EarthGoddess - “I’m just saying that I don’t understand why someone would deny themselves the joy of having children, biologically or not.”

You’re assuming having children is or would be a joy for every person on the planet. No one can know what their life would be like if they’d chosen another path, so if I choose not to have kids there’s no way anyone can know absolutely that I would have been happier with children, so don’t assume it’s the wrong choice. By the same token, I’m not going to assume that someone who has kids made the wrong choice because the cost or loss of free time or other opportunities.

Jessica Wakeman
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 01:50 pm: [report]

@LostInStars - “Personally though, a huge reason I don’t want to have kids, is that I don’t like how a lot of women act after they have kids. Like there is no other life but the life of a mother, and everyone else is selfish and un-enlightened. Kids aren’t for everyone! I don’t want to become that person.”

Wow, that is a really interesting and honest observation I’ve never heard someone say before. I know what you mean—I don’t like how some women act after they have kids, either. Some men, too. (But less men.) But I wouldn’t NOT have kids because I’d be afraid of becoming that woman. I just hate being around them!

Ryan
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 01:52 pm: [report]

@EarthGoddess - Children aren’t a joy for everyone. I’m glad you love your daughter, for both of your sakes. But some people don’t get unbelievable joy from their children. If everyone felt for their kids the way you feel for your daughter, then no child would ever be abused or neglected. The fact that child abuse exists is evidence that the joy of parenthood isn’t a universally experienced emotion.

FabulousJoi
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:14 pm: [report]

My turn, my turn.

I can remember being in middle school and teachers would ask what I wanted to be when I grew up. Most girls wanted to get married and have babies. I, on the other hand, always wanted to be rich and famous. I’m not rich, but I’m famous among my group of friends. Here’s my brief list of why I don’t want kids:

1. I have no interest in marriage.
2. I LOVE being able to come and go as I please.
3. I don’t really like kids enough to have my own.
4. I can barely feed myself let alone a dependent.
5. They’re expensive…duh!
6. It’s never been a part of my Master Plan.
7. I’m in a long-term relationship with my birth control and I don’t want to break up.
8. Motherhood doesn’t appeal to me…AT ALL.
9. I’m selfish and proud of it.

There’s no #10…the end.

sparklestar
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:19 pm: [report]

This just makes me broody…

I feel the pressure even if it’s only self-imposed. Anybody who actually qualifies for anything on that list is just terribly selfish and should not have kids, you’re right.

Besides, what is the point of becoming “rich and famous” if you have nobody to leave it to? What are you working for? What is the POINT of being alive if you have no legacy to leave to anybody ?? And nobody to leave the legacy to.

likeOMGkbye
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:25 pm: [report]

sparklestar, there’s plenty of people to leave it to…nieces & nephews, other family members, charities and organizations…there’s more people in the world than you and your child.

Queen Frostine
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:28 pm: [report]

@Sparklestar, one word. Oprah. No kids, more money than god. Seems to be have a helluva good time with it all.

tattooed_redhead
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:29 pm: [report]

@ Sadie - yeah baby! I can’t believe this list was only 10 items long. Like you, I have a thousand reasons not to have kids. And isn’t it better to recognize that I would not be a great parent *before* I have the kids, instead of after? Where is my credit for that?

For all of you who think that those of us are selfish for choosing not to have kids, piss off! How dare you pass judgement? Every single reason we child free people have is valid and good - for US. Just like your reasons for choosing to have children is valid and good - for YOU.

angelspinning
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:44 pm: [report]

Okay, I’m going to post a link to a comic (is that allowed here?), because some of the conversations on the frisky really remind me of it. Including a couple of strains in this one, but not most of it. Please don’t get mad, it’s just a funny commentary on internet communication and blogging!

http://xkcd.com/481/

EarthGoddess
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:46 pm: [report]

@Ryan: I understand that abuse exists, and it has happened within my own extended family. When I learned of the abuse, it tore me apart. 

@sparklestar: I agree ... to me, there is no purpose to anything I will do in my life if I cannot leave it as a legacy to my daughter. Before making any major decision, I always think of how it will effect her throughout her life even after I am gone. As the old saying goes: “We do not inherit the Earth from our parents, rather we borrow it from our children.” Once you become a parent, you no longer live for you, you live for your child(ren).

sparklestar
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:51 pm: [report]

@EarthGoddess - exactly, you don’t live for yourself anymore. What kind of hollow existence would it be if we all go around just caring about ourselves? I don’t want to leave my hard-earned legacy to a charity (I do a lot of voluntary work already) and nieces/nephews will already get a slice of the pie… if my sister even has any kids.

I want to ensure that my kids are well catered for. So what if there is no guarantee about whether they will like/visit you in the nursing home? At least I can try and not have a defeatist attitude towards childrearing.

likeOMGkbye
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 02:56 pm: [report]

hababaluga, the comic is awesome lol

I know that I certainly don’t mind living for myself. I also don’t mind living for my boyfriend and my friends. And again, just because you don’t have kids, doesn’t mean you only care about yourself cuz there are plenty of people in this world…

Queen Frostine
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:01 pm: [report]

@sparklestar

We don’t live a hollow existence. We care about all those around us. Our moms, our dads, our sisters and brothers, our uncles and aunts, our cousins, our nieces and nephews, our friends, co-workers and neighbors. We volunteer at homeless shelters, we volunteer at schools, we volunteer at animal hospitals. We donate blood, we donate money, we donate time. We campaign and raise awareness for things like cancer research, aids awareness and the environment. We love outwardly and give ourselves to the world in a million selfless ways.

missduplicity
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:05 pm: [report]

You know, I really enjoy perusing this site, but all of this “anti-parenthood” crap, when it comes up, is just really disheartening.

Aside from (obviously) boosting your readership for about ten miliseconds while parents speak out in defiense and club-hopping singles yell “Right on, sister!,” what does this type of pretentious, divisive, down-talking diatribe really accomplish?

Do you really believe that your late-night, come-as-I-please, selfish single life is honestly that much more rewarding than my life as a parent Do you truly think that parenting “isn’t worth it” somehow because it is not glamorous enough to be done (regularly) in stiletto heels? Do you contend that your jet-setting lifestyle is somehow more worthy or noble than what I’m doing—working hard to raise a good son who may one day be in charge of deciding what kind of nursing home options are available to you in your advanced age?

Look, I get it. Not everyone is cut out to have kids. Not everyone wants to. That’s fine. But if you’re okay with your life, and I’m okay with mine—why do you still carry around this need to belittle the rest of us? Does it make you feel good about yourself to put down other parents? Perhaps you aren’t as “anti-childbearing” as you appear to be. Perhaps you are bitter somehow, afraid that your life won’t “matter” as much as mine because you aren’t leaving someone behind with half of your genes and all of your affinity for obscure 80s New Wave.

The thing is…we are all equally important. The world DOES need children, and parents. That’s kind of what keeps it going. But the world, especially today, also needs adults without children, to help balance out our ever-growing burden on the environment. The thing is…to co-exist, we have to embrace each other as two sides of the miracle of life. This article…does nothing to promote that harmony.

Think about it. If the Frisky posted an article from a young parent, discussing not just the “merits” of parenthood, but also why the “other side” was so beneath them (“Single people are selfish! Single people lead transient, promiscuous, unstable lives! Single people grow up to become a drain on their family and society at large!”), you people would go NUTS. And yet, you expect to publish a myriad of fiercely anti-parent articles in the recent months without so much as a peep from those of us who HAVE chosen to have beautiful, wonderful, amazing kids.

...How…*childish.*

sparklestar
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:05 pm: [report]

Whatever. I give blood, volunteer at animal shelters yadda yadda. I still won’t feel my life is complete until I have somebody to hand all of my knowledge, learning, skills etc. to and raise within a family unit.

Each to their own. I need more to my life than being nice to the common man.

missduplicity
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:09 pm: [report]

@ jojo:

I love your list! My 3-year-old son is a Pink fan, too, but his favorite bands are The Ramones and the Presidents of the United States. We have some video of him humming “Peaches” when he was just barely a year old.
And also…the longer a person stays single, the higher their chances of having a “leaky vagina” for worse reasons that childbirth, unless they’re a saint. Personally, I’d rather be leaking amniotic fluid than, say, dirty syphillis juice any day.

Queen Frostine
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:13 pm: [report]

When I give blood or donate plasma, I’m giving someone the ability to live, giving them life. I find that much more a noble concept than just “being nice”. When I help build a house for a family in need, I’m giving them the ability to live together and be a family with a roof over their head. When I give my lunch to a homeless man, I might just be saving him from death. Personal fulfillment for me is about helping people BESIDES myself, rather than just squeezing out one lump of my own DNA. I can pass my knowledge, my learning and my skills to children as a teacher in a classroom or as a big sister to my younger sisters.

powplz
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:21 pm: [report]

@missduplicity - characterizing the broad, diverse group of childless-by-choice people (where the only common denominator is answering ‘no’ to the question of do they want children) as “late-night, come-as-I-please, selfish single life” is pretty childish. 

I think the ultimate goal was to, as you put it, realize that “the world, especially today, also needs adults without children, to help balance out our ever-growing burden on the environment. The thing is…to co-exist.”

Why do people get worked up?  Because we are commonly told we lead hollow, selfish, pointless lives.  More coexisting and respect is actually what we’re looking for.  I hate these bullsh1t lists, as I mentioned before.  And I love my friends who have kids, and I love their kids.  When women are pressured not to have kids, then you’ll probably see articles like the one you suggest.

subpar
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:26 pm: [report]

@missduplicity

Maybe you need to take a closer look at the pro-parenting comments, including your own. You’re completely condescending, yet at the end of your diatribe you tack on “but we all need each other, so where’s the harmony?” ...you and most of the parents who have responded have flat out insulted the childless numerous times, yet you act as though you’re victims. You’re not! You chose your lifestyle, those who disagree are chosing theirs, and they’re not stupid or selfish or out of their minds for doing so.

Having children is not the only meaningful way to contribute or to leave something behind! You aren’t better than anyone else because you gave birth.

missduplicity
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:48 pm: [report]

@joyy:

Forgive me for the lack of clarity, but in my post, I am speaking specifically to the author of the article; NOT to all of the non-parents on TF. I didn’t even read the comments until after making my original post. I would never presume to think that ALL non-parents live a selfish, “eternal-youth” type of life, just as I would hope that no one believes my life to consist of nothing but dirty diapers and Blues Clues marathons.

Anti-parent sentiments like the ones listed in the original post, however, ARE the types of things that are said by a youthful, self-absorbed individual. As a non-parent, she has ever right to BE youthful, transient, and self-centered; there’s nobody to please but her. But to insist that her lifestyle is somehow superior to the joys of parenthood, simply because parenting lacks a certain chic-ness or sense of independence, is arrogant and hurtful.

There are plenty of great reasons not to be a parent. There’s plenty of reasons to be proud of yourself as a single person, proud of your decision not to have kids. “I get to drink, party, wear high-heels, and come home late every night because I’m AWESOME!!!!!” are not among those more venerable reasons.

To the rest of you, I hope you each enjoy your lives, whether you have kids or not. The “harmony” between parents and non-parents that I was speaking of can certainly be acheived, so long as parents are parents because they truly want to raise a child, and non-parents are non-parents because they truly live a healthy, fulfilling life without children.

Again, I apologize for the lack of a signal that I was speaking to the author and not Frisky members at large!

missduplicity
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:52 pm: [report]

@subpar:

Please see my previous response to joyy. I am not, and have not, “attacked” any non-parent on The Frisky, outside of the author of the original article, and even then, I am specifically attacking the content of the post. I mean no offense to other non-parents, I am only disappointed in the very adolescent, scoffing tone that the author takes in her list of “reasons” why parenting is not glamorous enough for her lifestyle.

AgentBeryllium
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:54 pm: [report]

Between being pressured into having a baby or getting hitched I vote for neither! I had all the answers at 7! I know that I didn’t want to become married and I certainly did not want to have kids. I knew this at 7.  I just wish society’s peanut gallery would leave me the hell alone! Can’t I just be the crazy spinster I have always longed for?

missduplicity
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 03:58 pm: [report]

@msPriss-

I have a friend who told her mother, at a very early age, that she wanted to grow up to be an old lady who raised seals in the bathtub. Sometimes, you just know.

And I bet that, if you had seals, the peanut gallery would have to give it a rest. Nobody likes to get seal-slapped. It stings.

powplz
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 04:05 pm: [report]

@missd: thanks for the clarification!  I want to reiterate that I also hate these lists because it paints that self-absorbed moron picture of all of us, even if it’s just for a laugh.  I’ll occasionally joke that I’m filing something in my ‘super shallow reasons I don’t want kids’ file, but honestly ... I don’t have reasons!  I just don’t feel the desire, so I’m militant about my bc : )  I think the whole “reasons” thing is pointless and only starts fights ^^^^^^

missduplicity
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 04:14 pm: [report]

@joyy: I agree there.

Want me to even the score with a few really shallow reasons I love being a mom?

1) My kid is cute. (Case in point: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=97791&l=e141233881&id=1647236282) Being surrounded by a cute kid that adores you is kiiiind of a confidence booster.
2) Having other people TELL YOU how cute your kid is, and then how much he looks like his mommy…is also cute.
3) Every day is dress-up day, and I don’t have to have some creepy obsession with little dolls to get to dress something up in quirky little sailor outfits.
4) Honestly, what’s better than having an adoring little mini-me follow you around all day? Even when you’re feeling like a total d-bag, the kid isn’t going to forsake you. You feed it. And all of those cute little “I wub yoo, mommy!“s sure make the day nice.
5) Being in control of somebody else’s future is pretty awesome. I get to pick what kind of shmancy daycares he goes to, what kind of educational toys he gets for his birthday, how many times a month he visits the nature museum….every time he learns a new word or a stranger comments, “Oh, what a smart/nice/funny boy you have!” I get to pat myself on the back.

Haha. There are tons of pretty valid, fulfilling reasons for being a parent, too. But those are the fun, selfish ones.

missduplicity
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 04:16 pm: [report]

@Cheeeeese:

Eff you, dude! Have you seen the new Crystler Town & Country?! It has, like…three TVs….swivelly chairs…and a flippin’ TABLE in the backseat. Compared to the POS station wagon I have now, I’d definitely take one of those. LoL.

subpar
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 04:31 pm: [report]

@missduplicity

Thank you for clearing it up, didn’t mean to be hostile! Like I said, I’m planning on having children (or a child) when I’m ready. No time soon, but I respect the choices each woman makes in regards to motherhood (or non-motherhood, as the case may be). Being happy with yourself and the life you choose is all that really matters at the end of the day.

Beckimudd
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 04:35 pm: [report]

you can pick who you share your time with, your not forced to share it with a baby. No expensive baby toys, and crap, and doctors visits, no feeling tired because you have to run around with like a chicken with your head cut off (and thats only if you don’t have a job, if you have a job you have to run around like a headless chicken farm). No one person tying you down to one place or time. no people judging your choices for someone else life like someone else would bother to makes them. More children in the world to destroy every quiet decent place left, to cry at the bank and other places you can’t help but take them. Why have babies when you can have things that are all your own, you don’t have to share your time, you don’t have to take care of anyone else’s needs unless you choose to. Urgh babies

missduplicity
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 04:58 pm: [report]

@subpar—

Good luck in your life choices!! If/when you have a bundle of joy of your own, I think you’ll see why some of the moms here can get defensive pretty quickly. Your child is a representation of all your best parts. They’re like a living hope chest that you put all of your dreams, all of your best-laid plans, and, heh, all of your money, into, with the utmost of pride. That’s why we can get a little prickly when someone like the author here suggests that all of those things don’t measure up to club-hopping in a new pair of Jimmy Choos (although I do love a good martini and cute Jimmys).

Also…your pic is absolutely gorgeous. I have no doubt that your future child(ren) will be beautiful. I’d propose and arranged marriage, but, EarthGoddess and I have already got something in the works, LOL.

wild-ting
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 05:06 pm: [report]

zero population growth…YEAH!
http://www.populationconnection.org/

wild-ting
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 05:08 pm: [report]

Humblebee you are so correct: Raising a child is such a hard task, it’s not just about clothing them and feeding them. Teaching them manners, respect, and good habits is so diffucult.

Unfortunately too many people just have the kids and don’t take the full responsibility.

EarthGoddess
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 06:57 pm: [report]

@missduplicity: That’s right we do! Your little guy is already spoken for. (I had almost forgotten. LOL)

I’m sure all of the children of the parents on this site will have potential suitors lined up around the block when they’re older. We have some awesome moms here, so their kids must be awesome, too!

cjmar
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 07:36 pm: [report]

You poop during childbirth!  In front of a room full of people.  Reason enough for me.

canadiancutie
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 09:20 pm: [report]

Yay for Cameron Diaz! She gave a voice to those of us women who do NOT want kids. It’s a growing problem these days, men trying to turn you into a baby factory when you want no such part!

diablita
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 09:33 pm: [report]

I love how something as goofy (yet true to some) as this article can elicit such strong emotions from people. Y’all obviously have personal issues. No one said you had to defend your decision to not/have children. If you are feeling defensive about another person’s comments on here maybe you need to look at where those are coming from. Some people are meant to be parents, some are not. It’s that simple. I would rather have the person realize they don’t want kids instead of potentially becoming the woman with bratty kids that have no manners or aren’t succeeding in life because their parents don’t put effort into teaching them anything. (And before someone attacks me, I’m not saying they would all become that scenario.)

I personally helped raise three younger brothers and a younger sister and I can’t wait to have children. There is such a strong family bond that I have been missing since moving away from home. My parents did an excellent of job of keeping us close when we were young and it helped me appreciate what a miracle having children around is. All of the things children teach you in life…from the things they do that make you laugh, to the ways they think that amaze you, to the wonder and shock at how fast they’ve grown…the dirty diapers, illnesses, and “shrill screaming” as someone put it are TOTALLY worth it to me.

canadiancutie
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 09:36 pm: [report]

Sadie, thank you for your list! Very accurate, although I think another 10,000 reasons could be added!

fifi
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 09:54 pm: [report]

I agree that women who don’t want to raise children shouldn’t be judged. However, I think the reasons stated in this article are very shortsighted and superficial. What about when the babies become adults? I would find it extremely fulfilling when I’m old if I was able to raise somebody who can do more good in this world. It’s a challenge I’m willing to face. Its the same with adoption, if I can give just one kid a better life and make him/her reach his/her potential, why not?

But yeah, if people don’t want to take the responsibility (or just don’t have the confidence to do so), let them be.

sam04
wrote on June 11 2009 @ 10:31 pm: [report]

There is always such a solid line between parents and… non-parents.  I have absolutely zero desire to have children.  It’s not because I’m selfish or because I think I’d be a crappy parent.  It’s because they’re not something I see fitting into the life I want for myself.  And I don’t like kids.  At all. 

I have three sisters.  I asked my Mom once if she really wanted to have kids and she said that it was just sort of expected of her.  She loves us and was a fabulous mother who raised four fabulous girls, but she said she never really wanted to be a mother.

I get tired of the term “selfish” being tossed around on anyone who lives live for themselves.  To me, that is not selfish.  I think doing what it takes to make your life happy and fulfilling is much more positive than doing what is the norm and making do.  It’s not going to be the same for everyone.  For some, being parents is fulfilling.  For others, it’s being a tireless crusader for those in need.  And for me, it’s running with my dog and sleeping ten hours a day.

wonder_bread
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 10:12 am: [report]

has anyone who doesn’t want a kid consider being a foster parents…maybe getting some of the older kids out of the system adn safe for a while…i plan on having two of my own and then maybe adopting two… or wait for mine to get older and than foster some… there are just too many kids out there for me to be having a bunch adn not helping with the ones that are around.. its not their fault they are caught in the system

powplz
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 10:14 am: [report]

@not_sugarcoated - not wanting children and choosing to adopt over having your own are two very different things.  my views=kudos to you on wanting to adopt, but not wanting children usually means not wanting children, regardless of whose dna they are made up of.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 10:24 am: [report]

@not_sugarcoated: My mom, at one time, wanted to adopt 2 girls from China. I don’t know if she was serious or not, but as I’m a guy and I also have a brother it’s ultimately possible. Now she seems to have lost interest in adopting, and become a Vegan, but she’s fickle so I guess it’s apropos.

JackieO
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 10:29 am: [report]

CheeeeEEEEse you are so right, kids are soo freakin expensive. My 2 nieces will spend the weekend once in a while with me and come Sunday night I am broke!

fallonthecity
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 11:07 am: [report]

Whew, just read through all these comments—I have two thoughts:

1) The list in the article is a little ridiculous, but I took it as more of a joke than anything…

2) I’m not *planning* on anything.  If and when I meet a man who will make a good husband and wants build a stable life with me, I might consider having children.  I don’t have some overwhelming desire to “fulfill” my life by procreating.  I find it extremely, overwhelmingly, disgustingly hateful when parents get this attitude that I’ve seen from some of these comments—like people who *choose* not to have kids are “selfish,” living for nothing because they have nobody to leave their legacy to.  Yeah, right.  Maybe the mom standing in the line at the grocery store reading the National Enquirer while her toddler gives me a migraine screaming at the top of his lungs is selfish.  Just a thought.

subpar
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 11:30 am: [report]

@missduplicity

Thank you!

VannaMarie
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 12:39 pm: [report]

Ugh. This makes me want to vom.

I am glad that you think your child is the greatest. You should, you are their mother. Me on the other hand, does not want children yet, but maybe someday. If and when I do, please someone slap me silly if I try to play this elitist-my-life-is-better-than-yours-because-of-my-devotion-to-my-spawn role. I have plenty of wonderful parent friends that have great children, and do not play this card.

To each their own, but I still agree that women should not be shunned or labeled “selfish” for not wanting children. Our culture is evolving, c’est la vie!

LindseyLu83
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 01:58 pm: [report]

Hmmmm….

Well I don’t think anyone is trying to pass judgement, I think the bottom line is you have to do what is right for you, and what is right for you may not be right for someone else.

I can honestly say at this point in my life, when all of my friends are having babies, that I have ZERO desire to do the same. It does not at all mean I judge them for the life they chose, they love their kids and couldn’t imagine a life without them. However, I can barely take care of my 6 month old kitten. How could I ever be responsible for a human? When I see babies that are asleep I think to myself “oh so cute!” Then they wake up and poop and I think “thank god.” It is not me judging, because some women were born to change diapers. Some women, not so much.

I like doing what I want. When you don’t have kids, you can be selfish. That is your right. If I want to stay out late, I can. If I want to spend $200 on a pair of jeans, I do. If I want to jet off to Chicago for the weekend, I will. I’m not saying you can’t do these things when you have kids, but from what I’ve seen it’s definitely more complicated.

I would also like to say that since my cousins have had kids, I feel they have become more selfish. Holidays use to be a time for everyone to get together and talk, play games, eat a nice dinner and just enjoy each other. Now instead of listening to jazz when eating Thanksgiving turkey, we have to watch Finding Nemo. If we all want to get together on the weekends we can only eat tacos, hamburgers, or pizza, because that’s all their kids will eat.

Why should my life have to change because YOU wanted to have kids? I know not everyone is like this, but it definitely makes me thankful I am without child.

Lastly, I think that although the pressure is not as bad as it once was to have kids, I feel bad that some of my friends felt pressured into it because their older siblings had kids, or their parents were begging for grandchildren, or they have been married so long it just seemed like the next step…Now those people are in marriages that have so much strain on them they barely speak. I can’t help but think if ain’t broke DON’T TRY TO FIX IT!

develange
wrote on June 12 2009 @ 07:26 pm: [report]

Since when did parenthood become the get-out-of-being-selfish-free card? There are soooooo many ways to be selfish.

SeaWorthy
wrote on June 13 2009 @ 10:29 am: [report]

Labeled “selfish” if you do not have kids….but when you do, if you do not raise them as others think you should…driving them 3 blocks to school so they won’t get kidnapped, no playing outside unsupervised/play dates only, no monkey bars/no broken arms, enrolled in every available sport or activity, no score kept so no winners/losers/ everyone gets a trophy…and you, well you MUST volunteer in classrooms, car pools, team mom, PTA…otherwise you are a “selfish” person who should not be allowed to raise children!

la calme avant la tempête
wrote on June 13 2009 @ 10:49 am: [report]

I will never understand this argument ... why does everyone care so much? Is it to somehow validate their own choices?

Why are (some) parents / people who want children calling people who don’t want any selfish? Why is it important to them that everyone decides to have kids?

Have kids, don’t have kids ... and respect others. You get to make your own choice and that should be enough.

Isista
wrote on June 13 2009 @ 09:54 pm: [report]

Huh…I thought this list was more of a satire or joke. I really don’t see why everyone is getting so damn upset.

Some people want kids, some don’t. Not wanting them doesn’t make them selfish necessarily, and wanting kids does not make the other person crazy, or whatever generalizations we have on here. People choose what they want. Live your own lives and stop worrying about everyone else’s choices.

prgirl
wrote on June 14 2009 @ 04:22 am: [report]

I kid, 26 years later, still pissed off about the stretch marks…unlike kids, you can’t make them go away!;)

alyb
wrote on June 15 2009 @ 03:58 pm: [report]

Missduplicity,
really, very negative comments… it seems like in general after reading these posts that the parents are more negative and judgemental than the nonparents. As for the frisky publishing the article, it makes alot of sense since it is a website aimed at singles (um, duh?) And I absolutely abhor your comments about childless people being: um, “selfish, promiscous, etc?” Well thats a lot of conjecture. I am childless right now and- shocker- MARRIED, therefore not promiscous. I am also a TEACHER and so I would also say, not entirely selfish. Point is, people have children for selfish reasons, and dont have them for selfish reasons because people are somewhat selfish innately, all people. So really, who are you to judge? Your negativity is really disheartening… quit giving parents a bad rap by all of your negative comments!! Kudos to the single, unselfish people who are making a difference in the world!! They are just as right as you if they truly feel they are doing what they should be doing… This whole business about not having kids because you want to postpone responsibility is a load of crap, I’m actually not having them now because of the RECESSION and because I dont want to be irresponsible having a child living off of the Govt….  but ok go ahead and call me selfish for not having kids if you really want to….

writergirl
wrote on June 15 2009 @ 04:00 pm: [report]

I never think a person is selfish for not having children.  As a matter of fact, I COMMEND and APPLAUD you for NOT giving into societal pressure.  Why?  Because I’ve seen too many woman who’ve given in to the pressure, had children and absolutely ABHOR it.  Not the child—the life that is entailed with the child. 

They were completely unprepared, and I think to some extent, a little naive, that a child wouldn’t “mess up” their perfectly ordered lives.  As a result, they just don’t enjoy being a parent.  They love their child—but they are always focused on what they had to “give up” for the child—work, travel, sex, friends—when that is what being a parent is.  Not that you give all those things up permanently, but that you can’t just up and go to the mall, the movies or out to dinner anymore, never mind hopping a plane to Paris for a long weekend.  You can do all that, but it takes planning, and they resent the lack of spontenaity.

It is sad, really to watch these women.  They know they are missing something from parenting—and I’m not one of these moms who think the world revolves around my kid as one of the posters pointed out—so they compensate by buying their kids anything and everything under the sun.  No lie, these women AVERAGE $500 a month just on stuff for their kids.  Clothes.  Toys. Movies.  Activities.  They think the money spent will make up for whatever the mother’s feel they are lacking—as if giving the kid a bunch of toys will make up for the fact she resents his/her intrusion on her life.

It is really sad.  And what’s worse?  The kids all know.

So.  If you don’t want to have kids, but feel pressured—don’t do it!  Not unless you give it a tremendous amount of thought to it and feel you can adjust YOUR life around your baby’s!

Oh, and my husband signed the lease on our minivan (Which we have since traded in, THANK GOD) and said to me, “You do realize two years ago I was leasing a Mercedes, right?”

MissMissy
wrote on June 15 2009 @ 05:31 pm: [report]

Ya know what ... you’re right. I AM selfish. I DO love my life exactly the way it is and I don’t want it to change. If you parents want to judge me for that, go ahead. Keep in mind, though, I’m well aware of my inability to be a good parent at this point in my life, so I’m making the conscious choice NOT to be a parent. Don’t you wish so many others did the same? Were proactive in their reproductive lives? Weren’t living off your/my/our tax dollars (not a generalization - a fact)?

I don’t want to be that parent on assistance, not that I necessarily would be, but in this economy, who knows? If and/or when I make that choice it will be with a partner who is also 100% in on the decision. Because that’s what it should be - a CHOICE one makes.

But right now, I’m way too selfish to have kids, and you should be thankful that I recognize that fact.

Ms.Bubbles
wrote on June 15 2009 @ 07:09 pm: [report]

I have read all of the comments on here and all I can do is speak for myself when I say, I don’t want to have kids ever. Yes, it is because I am selfish. Yes, I Don’t want to ruin my body, and most importantly is that I want to use my money on things like stimulating the economy, spoiling myself and my boyfriend, and spoiling my godchild…I love my sisters littlegirl more than anything and I buy her everything she could ever want. The best part is that when I ger enough I can always give her back…
Today’s children have zero manners or home training. Like a co-worker once told me, there is no such thing as bad kids just bad parents. I’m tired of seeing and dealing with them, so I do not associate myself with children or there parents

John Neumann
wrote on June 15 2009 @ 08:23 pm: [report]

Good evening ladies, it seems I’ll be the only male responder.  My wife and I now have a 7 month old son.  I was ambivalent about the decision to have a child, something I’ll always regret.  I should have been more assertive of my beliefs, but it seemed selfish to withhold.  Being a parent is the most difficult thing I’ve ever done (this coming from someone who works full time while going to grad school).  In the time since his birth, I feel like my wife and I have lost each other.  She loves me, but loves him more.  I miss having a wife and I find my role of friend and lover is now that of provider who spends his days worried about money.  I love my son dearly, but he has changed everything.  In reflection, I think some couples are well suited to have children.  They are forgiving of each other, selfless, find their greatest joy in the company friends and family, they are able to let go of the day’s troubles and dance, they see their partner in their children and love them more for it.  We, as it turns out, are not such a couple and the pain of realization is crushing. Live for joy, love with operatic passion, dance with another, make a life of your choosing - you only get one.

EarthGoddess
wrote on June 15 2009 @ 09:12 pm: [report]

@John Neumann: As someone who struggled with parenthood initially, and gradually came around to the joyous feelings most seem to feel instantly for their child(ren), I can understand how difficult it must be for you and your wife. I urge you to be patient and learn to appreciate the little moments during the day when the two of you really connect. It could be as simple as a glance of understanding, words of encouragement, laughter at a new experience or the memory of an old one, or feeling appreciated for all the hard work you’re doing to provide for your family. Cherish those moments, and look forward to the days when your son won’t need you as much as he does now. My daughter is only 8, but her independence amazes me ... now I long for the days when she needed me for everything. It’s hard to be pushed aside with an “I can do it myself, MOM! I don’t need YOUR help.” (When she’s a teenager and beyond, I’ll be inconsolable. LOL) It DOES get easier over time ... you and your wife will find each other again, but the person each of you will find will be a new version of yourselves ... a chance to fall in love all over again. Being a parent does, and should, permanently alter you as a person. Isn’t that part of the evolution of you as a couple, though? To grow and change together and be better for it? Don’t lose heart, and enjoy the time with your new son ... he won’t be little for long and someday, I promise you, you’ll miss him being so small.

Nerdette
wrote on June 16 2009 @ 11:25 am: [report]

I think there’s something to be said, though, for how difficult and expensive it is to really raise a family these days.  I think Jessica raises reasons that maximize personal freedom.  I personal want to have a family some day, but I look at my paycheck and I read what it costs to just _deliver_ a baby and I don’t know how people do it.  And I have a good job! and good HC benefits! and a masters degree!! And yet having a family just seems out of reach.

So that’s why I don’t have a family yet.  But hopefully I will some day.

missduplicity
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 05:13 am: [report]

@alyb:

Go back and read my comments after the initial one. If you will reference those, you’ll see that my “negative comments” are aimed ONLY at the writer of this piece, and not at all non-parents, as I’ve clearly stated, probably three times now. I only read the article before responding the first time, and it was “My bad” for forgetting to preface the response with “RE: Jessica.”

HER reasons are selfish, ridiculous, and insulting to parents. Things “leaking out of vaginas,” having pooped-upon clothes in your closet…yes. Those things are insulting and ridiculous, and I find her article very immature for referencing these things as valid, meaningful reasons not to have kids. They’re not. They’re reasons to mock parents who are working hard to raise their children into the good people whose tax dollars will support our old, decrepid asses one day.

Anybody else’s reasons for not having kids are there own. You’re not selfish for not having kids. You’re selfish when you pretend that you don’t want to have kids just because you enjoy drinking too much, and then you turn around and make fun of people who DO have kids because they can’t come party with you 6 nights a week. That’s petulant, childish behavior, and that’s the vibe I got from the OP’s article.

If you would actually read my comments, instead of just the “inflammatory” one, you’d have seen that, and wouldn’t have had to waste your time.

missduplicity
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 05:40 am: [report]

@ John Neumann:

Thank you for sharing your experiences with us. Especially in today’s society, it can be difficult to fall prey to the worry and stress that accompanies new parenthood. As the future grows darker, it’s hard to focus on how beautiful your new baby’s smile is when you’re worrying about being able to feed him, let alone send him to college. But as easy as it is to be swept up in the worry and doubt and insecurity, it is just as easy to put faith in yourself and in your family, with a little adjustment in your outlook. Some things to think about:

1) If you’re worried that much about bills, your wife is worried about it 10 times more. I don’t say that to belittle your worries—it’s simply a fact that women, in general, worry a lot more than men do. Mothers are especially prone to excessive anxiety as it relates to their children. It’s likely that, in addition to worrying about how to manage the expenses of a family and how to effectively balance time so that you two actually get to spend some nights together, she is likely also worrying about whether she is dressing the baby warmly enough, whether she is using the right toys to stimulate his intellect, whether she is eating the right things as she breastfeeds, whether she loves him enough, changes him enough, loves him too much…..

2) She may also be concerned about how other people—especially you—view her as a mother. New moms are particularly prone to “baby overkill” because they are busy trying to convince others - and themselves - that they are “good mommies” and that they have handled the transition well. The truth is, almost nobody truly handles the transition into motherhood like a champ. Everything about HER life has changed, too—even down to the way her body looks and feels. She may have trouble feeling attractive or sexual after the birth, and that has NOTHING to do with you, and everything to do with stress, hormones, and a different body. She could avoid you in some sense because she’s afraid you will judge her by thinking she is an unfit mother or that she is no longer desirable to you as a wife. Remember that, as you struggle to fit into your new role as father and provider, she is struggling along with you, and the best thing for both of you to do is to remain open about those feelings and to constantly be a support to each other. Tell her she’s beautiful, compliment her on how well she soothes the baby. She will begin to open back up once she sees that you are accepting of her in her new role, and she will likely show you how she appreciates you in yours.

3) The first year is always the hardest. Tiny babies need EVERYTHING—to be fed, to be carried, to be clothed, washed, changed, read to…And as beautiful and amazing as they are, in all honesty, little babies give you nothing in return besides the thrill of having someone new in your life. As they get older and gain independence, parenthood is infinitely better. When your son can toddle across the living room and into your arms, it will be worth it. When you see him put the spoon in his own mouth the first time, it will be worth it. When he learns to say “I love you, dad”—absolutely worth it.

Right now, you just have to weather the storm, and look forward to the future. To rekindle things with your wife, start slow, with confidence-building compliments, then arrange a sitter for a “date night” that will give you two some time. Be patient, and I’m sure you’ll one day look back on these tough times and realize how glad you are that you stayed the course.

Squidtermz
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 08:50 am: [report]

Just who in fact is pressuring these women to have kids? It aint guys thats for sure! You can always tell your mom that you have another call ; )

powplz
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 08:52 am: [report]

@Squidtermz - Really?  Cause a good friend of mine wants to wait, which is difficult for her since the hubby is pushing pretty hard for kids asap.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 08:58 am: [report]

@joyy: His baby juice is expiring fast that is all.

powplz
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 09:05 am: [report]

@cheese - there’s a little bit of an age difference, but baby juice for guys doesn’t expire like the whole ‘bio clock’ some girls have going on.  also, they had a miscarriage a few years ago, and I think it’s made her terrified of going through it again while reinforcing for him that he wants kids.  either way, just pointint out that sometimes it is the guys putting on the pressure.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 09:10 am: [report]

@joyy: One in a million I’m sure.

avalari
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 09:35 am: [report]

Wow. How judgemental people can be. I agree with the sentiment that people have the right to do what pleases them. However, I don’t agree with parents acting all holier-than-thou if I don’t want to be a vessel for a “miracle” of birth. I’d make a great mother, but you know what, I prefer to be socially responsible and not add one more resource sucking mouth to this earth, so I’ll adopt (If I ever want one, which I’m sure I won’t and if I do it won’t be until I can afford one responsibly). There are women out there throwing babies into dumpsters for crying out loud. It’s sick. Yet we fight for the right for them to keep having them because it’s thier duty. I reject the notion that my body is only good for popping out kids and leaving a “legacy”. Doesn’t a teacher leave a legacy by touching the lives of countless children throughout her career? People like Rosa Parks and Walt Whitman didn’t have kids, are you telling me they didn’t leave a legacy? Jesus Christ didn’t have kids either, in case anyone was wondering.

Before people start freaking out, I mean it in Jest.

duckie
wrote on June 17 2009 @ 09:14 pm: [report]

my fiance is the one who is in a big rush to have kids!  I like kids, and am naturally materialistic, but I personally could be fulfilled without having kids- we have so far struck a good balance with our plan of having children and talking to him about it really gets me excited for the future- something I’d never expect.  There are many reason to and not to have kids (or adopt etc).  I think Diaz has a great point.  And living in a world where we are able to make autonomous choice about having kids or not along with everything else there is to consider in life would be awesome. The rest of the article I think was supposed to be humorous- nothing to get up in arms about.

drusc
wrote on June 18 2009 @ 09:56 pm: [report]

Reading all these comments has been rather redundant.  And I think many views on both sides are selfish.  No matter which way you look at it. 

I’m, 32 and have no idea if I want kids or not.  It has nothing to do with maternal instincts or what time I can or cannot go to bed.  It has to do with the question, “do I really want to bring children into this world”.  It’s an ugly world out there, more ugly than ever.  The statistics are terrifying.  Molestation, retardation, suicide, drugs, disease, war, the decline of humanity and morals.  The world has changed.  It’s ugly.  As much as I love children, it’s almost selfish to bring one into this world.  1 in 4 children are sexually molested.

No, I’m not a depressive.  I’m a realist.

Happy being childless
wrote on June 21 2009 @ 09:39 pm: [report]

“Hello everyone” I have just joined this website myself and mainly because I get sick of people judging me on the fact my husband and I have decided not to have children. I have just turned 40 myself and my husband is 48 and both are happily married with or without having children.

My husband and I decided long ago not to have children as we had no desirable interest in having them as such.

Having children by the way is a personal choice and no childless couple should be judged in any shape or form… by other people whether or not you decide to have children.

Personally I think people should mind there own business when it comes to this subject on whether or not to have children.

flower
wrote on July 2 2009 @ 07:46 am: [report]

Kids are so immature!

cupkey
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 03:56 am: [report]

My mother says: “If you are on the fence about having children or not, get a dog.  Why?  Because if the dog gets pregnant you can sell its children”

cnkengeb
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 12:16 pm: [report]

Ahh kids…
I like having them around, but not for long.  I’m not 100% opposed to having one, or two.  Its just that having any at this point in time is really not on my “to do list”.  I’m only 24 and get approached by people asking me when am I going to have kids, like I’m going to start popping them out right away because everyone else is.  There’s always a big flashing sign that says “HELL NAW!” going off in my mind when I get asked about kids. Whoever asks me can see it written on my face.  There’s just too much that comes along with kids that I’m not ready for.  I’ve been called selfish before and it pisses me off.  It would be beyond stupid of me to have a child because ‘you’ feel I have to or because ‘you’ think I should. My body is my business and nobody else’s. This is what freaks me out about having kids:
* You could DIE in childbirth!
* You can get diabetes (that runs in my family).
*Pregnancy weight & not getting it off (I haven’t even gotten a chance to really enjoy my body yet before it gets invaded).
* Saggy boobs.
* All the ailments that come with pregnancy (horrific acne, vomiting, swollen feet that wont go all the way down…)
* Prenatal meds that look like horse pills.
* Pain of birth.
* All the worries & expenses that come with kids from birth until you die.
* Not having a life anymore or focusing too much of it on kids that when they’ve flown the coop you & your spouse divorce.

And if that isn’t enough,becoming fat or overweight would drive me insane. I believe there’s about 15% of women who can morph back into the shape they were sans kids.  The other remains big, or claims they worked back down to a ‘womens’ size 6 or 8. “Womens” sizes is just a disguise to make women think they’re still a 6 when its really an 8 or a 10.
Having dogs is enough for me right now…

GreenAura
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 12:31 pm: [report]

Well, I’ve been married for 8 years, together for 10, and people constantly ask us about kids.  Yes, we want them… but for a little while, we were both questioning whether we want them or not. So we came up with a list of pros and cons.  The cons list was HUGE, and the pros list was very short, but had much more substance.  My #1 reason to have a child is because I would rather have the experience and deal with all the sh*t that comes with it, then to never experience it at all.  Besides, since we’ve been together for a decade, we’ve experienced so much and had so much time for each other.  Now we are going to take it to the next level.  Wish us luck!!   But to all of you that don’t want them, you aren’t being selfish!! To each their own!!

Childfreeeee
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 05:27 pm: [report]

Reasons not to have kids?  How about 100 of them?

http://childfreedom.blogspot.com/2009/03/top-100-reasons-not-to-have-kids-and.html

_jsw_
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 07:46 pm: [report]

I had no interest in having children until my first came along unexpectedly. She changed me for the better.

I have no issue with the lists, and no issue with those who don’t want kids. I was one of you. I generally agree that it’s better to not have kids if you don’t know that you want them, but it’s true that having them can change your opinions - either positively or adversely - once they arrive.

Yes, it’s easier/cheaper/less restraining to not have children. Similar arguments could be made against being in long-term relationships if you tend to make good money. However, I find LTRs - and kids - to be well worth the sacrifices they demand. Just my personal experience and opinion. YMMV.

kybo61
wrote on July 10 2009 @ 09:36 pm: [report]

I decided when I was 14 I didn’t want kids.  Some traumatic babysitting experiences when I was 16 and 17 cemented that decision.  At the age of 19 I had a bf who had an 8-year-old daughter from a previous marriage and that was the final proof I needed.  NO CHILDREN, EVER.  I managed to keep to my promise until I met my husband when I was 35.  He had two kids who lived with their mom.  I was uneasy but I loved the guy.  Long story short, the boy ended up living with us.  He was a sociopathic, violent, obnoxious reprobate.  He was a bully, he beat up girls, he was a thief, he even committed rape & sodomy and sexually assaulted two other children.  Intensive counseling did nothing to help him and after his dad died when he was 11, he ended up getting expelled from public school after he slugged a female guidance counselor in the face when she intervened in a cafeteria fight.  He ended up going back to live with his mom.  He was soon after arrested for burglary (liquor and cigarettes).  The cops found him drunk and smoking.  I don’t know what happened to him after that.  He is now about 20.  I have an adopted daughter age 25, that I adopted when she was 22, and four super grandkids 3-10.  But children?  You could never in my life have paid me to have a baby.

Childfreeeee
wrote on July 12 2009 @ 09:43 am: [report]

Studies have shown that while marriage tends to make people happier, having children decreases life satisfaction, marital satisfaction and mental wellbeing.

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/families/article6111954.ece

SlinkyKat
wrote on August 18 2009 @ 10:07 pm: [report]

I just want to point out that nothing could be worse for a child than to be born to parents that don’t want it. If you know you don’t want children, that isn’t being selfish. It just means you know yourself and are honest with yourself about what you want (and don’t want!).

FriskThis
wrote on August 25 2009 @ 06:22 pm: [report]

I am a happy parent of two, and here are my reasons to have kids:

1)  Having a captive audience.  Who better to listen to your cheesy renditions of bed-time stories than a wide-eyed child?  Or your off-tune renditions of lullabies?

2)  Best cure for loneliness or boredom.  It takes a lot to sever your relationship with your child.  Sure, it takes a lot of love, time and understanding, but tell me something worthwhile that doesn’t require effort?  Put some love and time into it, and it’s probably your best bet for a lasting, close relationship with another person.

3)  Relive your childhood.  If there were things you loved about your childhood, you can recreate them.  Things you hated?  You have a chance to set them right.

4)  Live comedic performances for free.  If a 1-yr old baby playing fetch with your labrador or dancing in the buff to a Michael Jackson tune won’t make you smile, nothing will. 

5)  A witness to your greatness and to your shortcomings.  If you continue to screw up—tell half truths—your kid will know.  If you are prone to tantrums, your kid will know.  Likewise, if you love unconditionally, give your time generously, and are truthful, your kid will know.  What better inspiration to become a bigger person than that little beloved witness in your house?

6)  Getting old will be easier.  This I’m speculating on, as I’m not yet old.  But I dread to think what holidays without children would be like.  I imagine being 75 and spending a lonely Christmas in a retirement home.  Yuck!  Or my wife, being a solitary widow when she outlives me.  Thank God for my two boys.  And if they give me grandkids, I’ll have little babies to buy xmas gifts for. 

7)  Will bring your relationship with your partner to its true light.  If you are unsure of how strong your relationship with your partner is, there is no better measuring stick than the challenge of bringing up children together. 

Well, that’s it for now.  GTG.

Athena
wrote on August 25 2009 @ 06:26 pm: [report]

I love how so many posters connect childfree (a better term than childless) with being single, staying up all night drinking, and prancing about in stilettos. It’s like they can’t conceive (ha!) of a world where a settled married woman doesn’t want children.

I’ve been married for seven years, and we’re happy and stable. The last thing we want is to have kids. I’m cool with women who do want to reproduce, but my problem comes in these women who talk about how “empty” my life is because I’ve chosen to be childfree. Actually, it seems much emptier to feel like you’re living your WHOLE life for another person, to cater to that person ONLY, to make things right so that when you DIE, that person will be happy. Really? I feel so sad for mothers who lose their identity after they have kids. If they couldn’t bear children, would they be worthless humans? Of course not!

lawyrgrl
wrote on August 25 2009 @ 08:30 pm: [report]

@Athena   Amen, amen and, may I say again, A-freakin’-MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I was all set to write yet another diatribe but I am tired from my full and vibrant life.  Very kind of you to take time from your own full and vibrant life to sum it up perfectly!

Shriekback68
wrote on August 25 2009 @ 09:01 pm: [report]

My two cents: I’ve noticed that nearly ALL of the parents in this thread have called the childless “selfish” at one point. While I think many parents love their children and couldn’t imagine a life without them, I think there are some other parents who deep down regret their choice to be a parent and have a big defensive chip on their shoulder about the subject. Call the childless “selfish” and rant all you like—you’re saying more about YOU than you are US.

_jsw_
wrote on August 25 2009 @ 09:28 pm: [report]

@Shriekback68: Actually, the majority of parents didn’t call the intentionally childless members selfish. A lot of the childless members defended themselves as not being selfish, but actually not that many of those with children used the term, and of those who did, only a couple called the decision to not have children selfish by itself.

BrookeVB
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:39 am: [report]

I’m not a party girl, in fact I’m “straight edge” and I NEVER want children. I’m 28 now and there has been absolutely no sign of maternal instinct. The sounds of a screaming baby make me want to vomit and I don’t think I could survive opening a nasty diaper. I understand there are people who find those things to be no problem at all. To me, they are big problems. I don’t like sticking to a strict schedule, sometimes I don’t even feel like cooking for myself, and I enjoy being free to do ANYTHING ANYTIME. It’s not about being drunk or going to Paris, just about freedom. Children do not appeal to me and I can’t stand people who feel like they are superior because they choose to procreate (I could do it too, if I wanted lol) or call me selfish or lazy because I choose not to. As has been mentioned already, there are too many people as it is.

skywalk
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:48 am: [report]

@BrookeVB: Anyone who would call you selfish or lazy is ignorant and/or jealous in my book.  If you don’t want kids don’t have them it’s fair to you and it’s definitely fair to the children which is more important to me.  Some people who think they want kids seem to resent their kid’s can you imagine someone who knows they don’t want kids trying to raise them?  It’s A LOT of work and if you heart isn’t into it I have WAY more respect for you if you don’t have them than I would if you had them just to fit in or go with the norm.  I think it is selfish to have a child you DON’T WANT and know it!

tk_2009
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 09:11 am: [report]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/143792

I think this sums it all up nicely. As soon as I got married everyone started asking “Sooooo, when are you two going to have kids?” I usually laugh it off and say something snarky about how we already have two dogs or how we enjoy having disposable income. It’s easier than saying “Maybe, when we’re done traveling, living our lives as we please and spending entire afternoons naked, we’ll think about it, but probably not.” While sometimes the idea of having children seems nice, the ways it would change my relationship with my wife is not something I’m not willing to consider, and she agrees.

WandaHollywood
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 09:22 am: [report]

The subtle socialization of women teaches us that we are to be the selfless care takers of all others with or without our own children. Additionally there is the widely held belief, and many of you who already posted seem to really believe this, that a woman cannot be fulfilled without motherhood. Her destiny is determined by her genitals. Just because the equipment is there, she must use it for the ultimate good of the world first, which is having babies, lots and lots of babies. The idea that we are quickly running ourselves out of room on the planet has no bearing on this belief. (Be reminded that in the 60’s there was a movement to reduce the population growth that was well thought of then!)

That being said, how many of you will become the 40 and 50 year old women with alcohol and prescription pill addictions that are hiding your worst secret - the secret that you are so unhappy and unfulfilled in your lives because you have nothing that is you? I have seen many women go down this road. All they ever were was mother, cook, cleaner, chauffeur, doctor, nurse, teacher, on and on ad nauseum, but never _________ (fill in any woman’s actual name like Mary) who was a ________ (fill in some career name like Doctor or Author). My point here is that their identity is only defined by their relationship to what they do for other people and not by who they really are.

I think motherhood is incredible for some women, but not for all women. Some women really take to it like ducks to water, others like cats to water. The sad fact is that too many women should be skipping this badge in Girl Scouts, and moving on to Technology, Literature, and Bridge Building. But society says there is something “wrong” with them if that is what they want.

May I suggest a book called “Me Again - The Untold Story of Every Woman’s Life” by Dr. Ann Mody Lewis, founder of Women’s Journey. This book describes the Ten Stages of Re-Socialization for women, and may help to bridge the gap between the ‘every woman must have babies’ side and the ‘hell no, I’m not having babies side’ of this debate. There is no right answer, but every woman has the right to determine her own answer.

Please check out the website womensjourney.org - the new interactive version is being launched in just a few weeks, and will provide years of information that will be of value to all women.

WandaHollywood
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 09:28 am: [report]

P.S. I forgot:

1. What about the ‘Octo-mom’?
2. Jeffery Damer - good dad?
3. John Wayne Gacey - ‘nother good dad?
4. Mother Teresa - unfulfilled, selfish?

I could, but I can’t go on. Too depressing to think about.

deegee
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 10:19 am: [report]

Choosing to have kids IS the most SELFISH thing someone can do.

Let us assume for the moment that someone who chooses to have kids is making a decision which most benefits that person, or else that person would not make that decision. And let us assume for the moment that someone who chooses not to have kids is also making a decision which most benefits that person.

The difference between these two people is that the have-children person expects others, including those who choose not to have children, to subsidize (i.e. using resources, getting tax breaks, favors and benefits in the workplace, tolerating other’s children in places they have no business being in) the choice of the have-children person, while the person who chooses NOT to have children neither expects nor receives any benefits from the have-children people because of the choice he or she made.

That is the essence of the “Who is selfish?” debate. Each is making a decision which best suits himself or herself, but one expects the other to bear some of the costs of that decision, while the other does not. This is why those who have children are selfish while those who do not have children are not selfish.

I was able to retire last November at the age of 45. I pay my for my OWN health insurance, my OWN housing, my OWN car insurance, my OWN food. I still pay local school taxes (which are not based on my reduced income BTW). No handouts.

And do you want to know what I do with my extra spare time? I do volunteer work with several area schools. I ran several school Scrabble tourneys and seminars and put BIG smiles on the faces of dozens of well-behaved middle-school kids.

I have a stack of handwritten letters from these kids thanking me for my visits over the years, as well as plaques and trophies from my involvement in this program I could not have participated in had I been childed and forced to keep working and been unavailable to visit these schools during the day, during the week.

And someone dares to call ME selfish?

skywalk
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 10:34 am: [report]

@DeeGee:  good point.  That said none or most of us would not be here today without these selfish child bearing people.  (jk) It’s not selfish to not want to bring an unwanted child into the world period.  Even if you fall in love with that child (which you likely will) doesn’t mean you can’ have some type of resentment towards that child.  Raising a child is the hardest job anyone can do and I think some people are cut for it/better qualified and they should go for it.

xoverau
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 11:28 am: [report]

I worked in a daycare for many years.  During that time I completely made over the program—from a cinderblock room with one sad carton of blocks to a colorful play area with piles of toys and regular projects.  Even though I had a constant parade of illnesses, including one that landed me in the hospital, there was nothing to compare with having little, loud, cute humans hanging off my knees and squealing, “DON’T GOOOOO!” at the end of my shift, or watching their faces light up as they figured out words in the book I was reading.  I was present for the birth of my best friend’s second child and act as godparent.  I host her oldest at my house when she needs time off.  When she had a life-threatening illness and there were no other fit family members she was willing to give responsibility, we signed papers so her children would go to me in the event of her death.  If that would happen, I’d throw all of my energy into making sure that they would be healthy and happy and achieve their dreams, just as she’d want it.

But…I don’t want kids of my own.  No excuses or explanations, because none are needed, IMHO—I just don’t want them.  I’m single and have been turning down dates for ten years because I want to stay that way.  I love my two jobs, which are nonprofit and serves the disabled poor, but I make almost nothing and have almost no insurance.  Especially in this economy, that leads to strained savings and a tight budget.  Though I’m thirty-four, I owe a lot still for student loans, which I’m trying to pay off responsibly.

I don’t feel selfish.  I feel like I made a different choice, one that’s left me happy in many ways.  I also feel like having a kid, at this point or any point soon, would be irresponsible and selfish because I couldn’t provide proper care—and who would take care of my needy clients if I restructured my life with a profit motive?  It does bother me that women I know who have children paint me with one of two brushes, though—either I’m sad and lonely, or I’m a narcissistic party animal.  But I’m willing to acknowledge I may be oversensitive because of the sheer amount of comments.

HDDeeva
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 11:35 am: [report]

More reasons

1. Cluttered home
2. No personal space or time
3. Men usually start to resent the wife
4. Wife usually becomes a nag and nobody wants to be around her
5. stretch marks
6. saggy breasts that will nrever be beautiful again
7. smelly and nasty car due to the kids
8. constant catering to keep them from whining and crying
9. No more time or money for travel
10. depression brought on my staying at home and never having adult interaction
11. husband still gets to have a good life, woman gets to cook,clean, change crap diapers, clean up vomit, and do laundry

_jsw_
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 12:04 pm: [report]

Why so much discussion about selfishness? It’s a decision that is hopefully made intentionally (of course, there are many accidental parents and a number of childless-due-to-infertility people). Not having children certainly allows a person more personal freedom. Having children allows a person other pleasures.

One point about paying school taxes, etc., while not having children: yes, you’re paying for the children of others. However, the people that build the homes you live in, grow the food you eat, build the transportation you use, and work for the hospitals that care for you are the children of others and needed to go to school. School represents a benefit to society as a whole, and so paying for it is a requirement for all.

I agree that there are too many people, and I don’t think it’s at all selfish to not add to that number, nor do I think it to be selfish to have children that you can support. I live in a state that makes it very easy to have children for the purpose of increasing welfare payments. I do not support that. We have people fly in from the Dominican Republic solely to give birth here, have it paid for in full, and then return with a child who is an American citizen and therefore entitled to benefits. I don’t support that at all. But those who can afford (in all senses) to support their kids? I certainly think it’s a good thing.

@HDDeeva: Not in my experience.

deegee
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 12:26 pm: [report]

I would like to expand on my previous comment about the CF and local school taxes, as a previous post includes a common straw-man argument often used agaisnt the CF who complain about these things.

I would like to see us CF folks pay LESS, not NOTHING in local school taxes. In New York, the elderly get to pay less school taxes because they are…elderly. They tend to be property-rich, income-low, and school-burden-not. (They get the same extra school tax break even if they DO have kids from their house attending the public schools!)  But a non-elderly person with the same income, same property wealth, and same non-burden on the local schools does NOT get a tax break. Elderly owners in my co-op apartment complex receive bigger school tax breaks than I do. Those same elderly get income tax breaks, too, so they support the state’s aid to local school less, too. The only reason the elderly get these extra tax breaks on their school taxes is that they VOTE, so the politicians are kowtowing to them in fear of losing their votes. They don’t fear losing the non-elderly CF voting group.

I want the breeders to pay for more of the school tax burden than they do now. If you have more kids, you pay more in school taxes; or if you have no kids, you get a school tax break.

KingDad
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 12:29 pm: [report]

If you don’t ever want kids. You wouldn’t make a good parent in the first place. Too many bad parents out there already.

powplz
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 12:38 pm: [report]

Not wanting children has nothing to do with one’s capacity to be a good parent.  There are PLENTY of terrible, neglectful, abusive parents who intentionally had their children, and to quote my father (who is one of them), wanted “nothing more than to have lots and lots of kids.”  I know plenty of people who didn’t want to have kids and are wonderful parents to their oops! unplanned kids.

powplz
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 12:41 pm: [report]

And as for taxes, I just want to say that I am childfree by choice, young, and gainfully employed, and I am more than happy to support public education with my tax dollars.  Why?  Because I benefited from it myself, and education improves the community, whether you have kids or not. 

I AM, however, a little annoyed by the child tax credits.  I mean, you pay less taxes just for being a breeder?  I know kids are expensive, but that’s usually the parents’ choice to have them in the first place.

writergirl
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 12:48 pm: [report]

I didn’t think of this the first time this was up for discussion, but I guess I fit the definition of selfish, too, in this discussion.

My first pregnancy was unplanned.  The second pregnancy was just something that was never going to happen.  So after exploring infertility we looked into adoption.  We started the process, paid some bucks, got ready to submit the paperwork and the waiting period jumped from two years to five.

Now, we had to reconsider.  Waiting five years for another child meant my son would be ten when the adoption was completed.  At ten, I pretty much have my life back.  No strollers.  No carseats.  No sleepless nights (in theory).  No packing half the house to go to grandma’s for dinner.  And at ten, it opens up a multitude of travel options you don’t have when they are younger.

So we cancelled the adoption.  Selfish?  You betcha.  Do I regret not having another child?  To a certain degree, but not enough to feel guilt over it.  Do I feel bad denying my son a sibling?  Eh, not really because if he’s ten and the baby is a baby, well, it would essentially be having two only children.

So I guess I’m selfish, but I think long term, I made the right choice.

So if you don’t want to have kids—DON’T.  If that is the right choice for you—then it is the right choice.  I don’t know if I would have felt I was “missing” something if I hadn’t gotten pregnant by chance because I did get pregnant.  But I think I could have had as full a life without him, as much as I do with him, and I do love him to pieces.

Kids don’t make you a complete person.

Shriekback68
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 12:58 pm: [report]

@jsw: just because something wasn’t said “intentionally,” doesn’t mean that it wasn’t said or implied. Look, I’m not saying these parents are bad people, just watch what you say. Sometimes, we don’t even realize we are sounding judgmental (I do it, too!). We all make different choices for different reasons. I see no reason to fling poo at others just because you may or may not be happy with your own choices.

_jsw_
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:14 pm: [report]

@Shriekback68: My use of “intentional” was purely meant to apply to the state of being a parent or childless, not about the saying of anything. Sorry to have been vague. I agree that this is not a situation where one’s choice should be mocked or put down (except, for me, those who purposefully choose to have children they know they cannot support).

sammana14
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 01:41 pm: [report]

My mother had two children who grew up and moved away.  My brother lives in Australia and I have spent the better part of the last 5 years in Africa.  She always worked, at least part time, and had a few hobbies, but her life was her family.  She derived her happiness from her family, and never explored life to find out what else really made her happy. 

The other day I asked her if she had any exciting plans for the weekend.  She said, “Well, Dad wants to do this…”  I asked, “But what are you doing?  What are you looking forward to?”  And she said, “I’m looking forward to doing this thing with Dad.”  Because its with Dad.  Because she has always relied on other people to provide her life with meaning, and because she is heartbroken that my brother and I are gone.  Because every happy memory she has is of her family.

I love my mother, but I’m deathly afraid of finding myself in her place.  **For those who said that having children gives their lives meaning, I think that’s the easy way out.**

I’m in a wonderful relationship, but I also do things alone.  I go to movies alone; I eat out in restaurants alone.  I travel the world alone.  I’ve spent my birthday and Christmas alone.  I work hard to improve the lives of others, both professionally and personally.  I have fond memories of peering out across the Sahara desert, and of exploring the wilderness of Madagascar, both done alone.  I am taking time to find out what makes me happy.  I hold myself responsible for my happiness and never intend to place that burden on someone else.

I might have children some day, or I might have a complete, meaningful life without them.  I wish the rest of you the same.

EarthGoddess
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 02:59 pm: [report]

@sammana14: I know everyone is different, and to each her own, but the list of things you’ve done alone depressed me as I read it. I cannot imagine experiencing all of that without someone (or in my case my family) to share it with. To me, life is meaningless without being surrounded by loved ones. For me, that means my husband, daughter, extended family and friends. Experiencing all that alone is just sad. Just my opinion ...

sammana14
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 03:05 pm: [report]

@EarthGoddess: I’ve done many more things with loved ones, but listing those things didn’t do much to prove my point.  I’m not arguing against human relationships, but rather encouraging people to look beyond having children as a way to bring meaning into their lives.

kmichelleo
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 03:55 pm: [report]

Because nipple infections and abstaining from alcohol are not tragedies of self.

Because despite failed birth-control and some hard decisions, my husband and I are happier than we ever imagined.

Because being a mom is way easier than anyone ever told me it would be… and about a million times more rewarding.

Because her life is the greatest gift I could ever give four very proud grandparents, and in one way is my ability to give back for all the sacrifices made for me.

Because 3AM isn’t hard when she looks up smiling and happy to see me.

Because she will grow into a woman who loves, accomplishes, has her heart broken… endless potential exists in her and my life is absolutely rounded by the chance to help her see so many experiences through.

I would have continued to be a “whole” person without her, no doubt. But she enriches my life in a way that is irreplacable and absolutely unique. I love my kid and I love my role in her life.

To each their own!

EarthGoddess
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 03:57 pm: [report]

@kmichelleo: Beautifully stated!

Kat
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 04:35 pm: [report]

@HDDeeva I love your points.

I feel that a child will only enrich your life if you actually WANT one.

My mother has stood by me for one abortion after a birth control(2 kins, even!)failure, an abortion I felt ONLY relief afterwards. She also supports me in my 5 year struggle to find a doctor to give me the tubal ligation I so desperately want. I dislike being around children, their lack of boundaries and personal space skeeves me out, and is not “enchanting or adorable” to me. Even my small cousins who are technically blood related do not awaken any protective nurturing instincts. When I was a 3 year old child and up I had no interest in being around other children, including my baby brother.

My life is full of wonderful friends and family, my mother, brother, aunt and grandmother, and all the coworkers who are like family to me in the industry where everyone knows everyone. I never consider myself “alone”.

I’m really glad that there are wonderful loving parents who value their kids so much, but if I had kids I’d be one of those harried mothers who resents her kids and doesn’t want them “crawling all over her”. The only way I could have kids would be to adopt(not giving birth, thanks) and then hire a nanny to do full-time care. So why bother? I feel every child should be cherished, and I have no inclination. I’ll leave the kids to be raised by moms and dads who adore them!

lawyrgrl
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:26 pm: [report]

@sammana14   Your life sounds great!  I love hearing about people who are happy with themselves and are pushing the boundaries of their lives without regard for what others may think.  I aspire to do that myself and I think that I am pretty well on my way.  Thank you for your good wishes for all of us.  I send them right back to you!!!! 

jshea1223
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:41 pm: [report]

35 years old, mother of two!

* Size 0, 5’6 117 lbs
* Amazingly flat Abs, physcially fit, sexy as hell.
* Won’t catch me without 3 1/2 inch heels
* Better shape than anyone women without kids
* I am my husband’s girl friend
* Daily hot lunch dates with hubby
* Vacations probably more than most kidless couples, likely more fun too
* More fine dining than most. Yup, I bring my very well behaved children with us.
* Won’t find poopy marks in my closet!
* Only wear sexy bras/panties and they are always matched! Fun to keep it hot for hubby!
* By the way, breast feeding was quite amazing…. don’t miss out.
* Believe me, we probably stay up later than most!
* Probably have more sex than most childless, bored couples
* Used my LV backpack as a diaper bag, no problems there…
* Really bring the family together and the bond never breaks
* Nothing is hotter than a sexy mom hand in hand with two well behaved happy kids
* More rewarding shopping for them than for ourselves. So, no misery there.
* Hey, I love my SUV!
* One more thing, I am a stay at home mom and no I don’t have a nanny!

Hey, not having children is a choice and I respect that. But don’t psych yourself up to believe that everyone else is miserable. Sure I have some stretch marks from having kids, yes I go to the gym and yes, once in a while they drive me crazy! The love you share is a lifetime and priceless!  Girls are the joy of our lives. I not only appreciate the man I married but the wonderful father he became. Kids are a laugh a minute. I am at high risk for pre mature aging… always laughing my butt off. Quality of life is all about how the children are raised. Raise them well and you can still party on!

EarthGoddess
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:49 pm: [report]

@jshea1223: While I’m a few dress sizes larger than you are, and now feel the need to head to the gym ASAP, I appreciate and can agree with what you said. I also keep myself looking nice for my husband, am raising my daughter to have manners and behave properly in public (never a single screaming episode in a public place from her EVER), and enjoy my life to the fullest. Motherhood =/= Boredom, for sure! They don’t call us MILFs for nothing!

*sam*
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:54 pm: [report]

@jshea123: I get that you’re completely happy with your life, & that’s awesome, but, you came off sounding like a total hypocrite.

case in point:

“Hey, not having children is a choice and I respect that. But don’t psych yourself up to believe that everyone else is miserable.”—after you mentioned these items in your list of ‘why I love being a mom’:

“* Better shape than anyone women without kids
* Vacations probably more than most kidless couples, likely more fun too
* Probably have more sex than most childless, bored couples.”

I’m just going to quote you and say “don’t psych yourself up to believe that everyone else is miserable.”

jshea1223
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:56 pm: [report]

@Earthgoddess: Thank you! See, I am not alone out here! Yes, head to the gym! Not about the body, that’s a bonus! That’s my alone time, energize me, helps me feel great and looking good! Husband finds it hot that I still take care of myself! ROAR! We are mothers, but we are also WOMEN! Hey, sexy is a state of mind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  YUP, they don’t call us MILFs for nothing… I love it!

jshea1223
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 06:59 pm: [report]

Sam, I didn’t say childless couples are miserable and sorry if I offended you. I am just pretty happy with my life and I just want to provide a differnt perspective, that’s all! Happy moms happy kids! You can be happy without kids too! No problems here!

*sam*
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 07:01 pm: [report]

@jshea1223: no, you didn’t offend me. sorry if I came off bitchy… I just felt compelled to point out how your comment could easily be misconstrued…—don’t mind me, I’m in an overly analytical mood today…

jshea1223
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 07:04 pm: [report]

Hi Sam, Haha! No problems here!   I was compelled to write my comment after reading Sadie lists from June 11.

writergirl
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 07:07 pm: [report]

@EG and Jshea—I’m a mom too, and while I wouldn’t trade him (most days), I don’t think it is the end all be all of life.  I know plenty of women who are completely satisfied with their life sans children and are just as fulfilled as we are. To say otherwise is actually demeaning.

We don’t live another person’s life, and quite frankly we can’t even conceive of a life without children because we have them.  So who are we to say that the childless are missing something?

On the flip side, they can’t claim *we’re* missing out on something because we have kids.  They in turn don’t live our lives, and by most of the stories/anecdotes posted only get to experience the messy part of parenting.  (And based on the messy parts *I* didn’t want kids when I was younger)

Life is what you make of it, kids are great, but as I said above, having a child doesn’t make you complete. It’s unfair to say otherwise.

Kat
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 07:08 pm: [report]

I think the point is NOT that childless/childfree women “think parents are miserable”, but that WE as people would be miserable living that life for ourselves.

I feel like when the childfree say “Man, I would HATE that, getting up to take care of the kid, breastfeeding, how my body would get, being ‘on call’ all the time, that sounds TERRIBLE,” many parents HEAR instead, “Your life must suck so bad, you must be so unhappy, why on earth would you have a kid?”

When that’s NOT what is being said at all. Noone is saying mothers necessarily have less sex, or are stressed or have bad bodies, etc. Noone needs to rationalize how GREAT your kids are and how happy they make you, and how your self esteem is great and you’re all MILFs. You chose that life, obviously it’s working for you. But it’s not a life the childfree would choose. We WOULD be as miserable as you are NOT. I think parents need to start taking it less personally when a CFer says “I don’t want kids ever.” We’re not spitting on your life choice, we’re just making one of our own.

P.S. “Really bring the family together and the bond never breaks”
Really? Um, that’s why my fiancé and his sister don’t talk, and why my mother was estranged from her father until his death, and why I don’t talk to my shiftless loser father? Why my close friend effectively “divorced” her parents, and why another friend doesn’t even know her father? Why there are divorces and infanticide, matricide, etc.? The bond can and does break. Not for you perhaps, but children aren’t magical glue that holds a family together. There’s no guarantee that anyone in a family has unbreakable bonds. Sad but true.

Kat
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 07:13 pm: [report]

@jshea1223 “I am just pretty happy with my life and I just want to provide a differnt perspective, that’s all!”

See, it’s not really a DIFFERENT perspective when it’s the standard old hat, “Parenthood is the best job in the world!” trope. That’s what everyone is being told anyhow. This list is just a REACTION to the constant message that “motherhood is great and everyone must do it or risk eternal loneliness”.

The original article IS the different perspective.

jshea1223
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 07:17 pm: [report]

Kat, appreciate your comments. Honestly, I never thought of having children and I don’t even like kids.  I mean, I never ruled it out but certainly didn’t really really planned it. Both kids were accidents…haha and before I had children I would cringe when I am seated near children. Just wasn’t my thing. I guess having my own children made me realize that it’s possible to not “like” kids in general but still love my kids to death. And yes, I know about broken families…a little too well. And you are right, people can break all kinds of bonds.

jshea1223
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 07:26 pm: [report]

Kat…PLEASE! No need to be so critical… My comment refers to Sadie’s June 11 posting, not necessarily to the article itself. And NO I never said being a mom is the happiest job on earth,... they can drive me crazy! Heck, it’s the toughest job I have encountered but surprisingly rewarding! And NO I don’t expect my children to take are of my at my old age. They are just these little cute creatures that we created, we went to take care of them and raise them well. What they want to do or not do with us when we grow up is up to them. A different perspect or not… just my humbling perspective!

doboji
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 07:56 pm: [report]

How about a male point of view… for men it seems the pressure is reversed, the idea of having kids is expressed as the end of the world, something to be avoided for most if not all of the reasons proposed above.  But see here’s the reason I think having children is a good thing… no in fact one of life’s greatest experiences, and all ALL of the reasons listed above are temporary.  You can and do reclaim all of those above non-parent things listed above… I’m not saying shut up hurry up and have kids, I’m saying to deny yourself the joys(and pains) of being a parent in order to prevent ever having to pause in those activities is really doing yourself a disservice.  It’s one thing if you’re not in a position to have kids.. or you are not ready to be a parent.  But skipping kids for the (I’m sorry) shallow/silly reasons above is just stupid.  Being the father of a 1 year old little boy is without question or hesitation the greatest thing that has ever happened to me.  And I look forward to doing all kinds of things with my son until he grows up and becomes a man.

BrookeVB
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 08:06 pm: [report]

RE: The male perspective
Actually, I find my no children stance to be a hindrance when it comes to relationships with men. Since men don’t take the physical blow and don’t generally do any of the hard work in parenting, not to mention can walk away any time and just pay child support (if that), it’s a much simpler idea for them. I am at a point where I mention VERY early in a relationship that I do not intend to have children, and there see how they react. Most men I encounter are absolutely, 100% sure they want kids.

@jshea1223
I don’t mean this to offend you, but it sounds like your husband makes a VERY good living and you are a very lucky woman to be able to stay home and have time to work out and money to buy nice things. Unfortunately, that does not describe the “average” mom in America these days. Life is much harder for the have-nots, and so is child rearing.

Shadowish
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 10:26 pm: [report]

Geez what is wrong with you people? Has the world gone mad? Seriously, people are soo selfish these days. Oh course it looks bad, as would anything if you were to raise 10 points not to do a certain thing. I wonder if it was your own if those things bothered you so much. Shows that the new generation has become self-absorbed and irresponsible. Sure living childless might be a blast when your young…but dont you ever wonder what might of been when you reach the age of 40/50/60? When your old and barren and lifes joys has passed you…then what do you have to look forward too? Emptiness. Geez i feel sorry to you

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 10:47 pm: [report]

@shadowish: So you think it is “responsible” to have children now? I just think that you are self absorbed to the point that you are afraid about the changing racial dynamic in the United States. If you are so be it, move to Sweden and learn Swedish you hate mongering f|_|cktard.

Also, you may want to change your birth date higher than 1986 you entitled moronic piece of *censored for the general public*.

_jsw_
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 10:52 pm: [report]

@CheeeeEEEEse: Am I missing something here? Why all the vitriol? Sorry, just confused.

Shadowish
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 10:55 pm: [report]

Firstly cheese, im from Australia…do you know where that is? So i couldnt give two flying F$#ks about the supposedly changing dynamics of America. And why sweden? Secondly, my wife just bore me a son, its just the biggest joy for my life, so i aint talking out my arse.
Why are you soo offended? Its my opinion just like its your to not have children. I feel people like you are selfish. Dont like it? Suck my dick then bitch

munchystubby
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 10:58 pm: [report]

I think it’s interesting that choosing to not have children is deemed “selfish” by some on this site, but the reasons some of the same people give for having children are essentially selfish—MY life is fulfilled, I will have someone to care for ME when I am old, I now have meaning and have filled the emptiness in MY life, etc.

I think having kids is great, if you want to have kids. Not having kids is great, if you don’t want to have kids. I suspect that criticism of people who make a different choice than you springs from an underlying unhappiness or insecurity with your own choice.

Live and let live. If people can have kids and be happy, wonderful. If people can remain childfree and be happy, more power to them.

Shadowish
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 10:58 pm: [report]

Oh yeah cheese btw. I aint white. So this whole racial thing…dont really know where you got it from.

Kat
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 11:06 pm: [report]

@munchystabby Amen.

@Shadowish “I feel people like you are selfish. Dont like it? Suck my dick then bitch” Way to prove your case. Just the sort of person I want raising the next generation, you intolerant piece of poo. SOmeone to take care of you when you’re old? Sounds pretty selfish to me. Makes me wonder why YOU are the who initially GOT so offended.

Shadowish
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 11:15 pm: [report]

oh please, who said i raise kids to they can look after me when im old? Do you believe people will actually do that? And if they do, then i am not one of those people.
Yeah i did get offended, as would anyone with kids.
come back to me in 20 years and tell me you didnt make a mistake.

Kat
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 11:27 pm: [report]

@Shadowish Just referring to what you said…..

~~~
“Sure living childless might be a blast when your young…but dont you ever wonder what might of been when you reach the age of 40/50/60? When your old and barren and lifes joys has passed you…then what do you have to look forward too? Emptiness. Geez i feel sorry to you “
~~~

I hope to be barren next year after my tubal. So I’ll get back to you then, k?

Also, I don’t believe life’s joys can “pass by”. One can always find joy in life. I know a significant number of childfree seniors, and they’re fun vibrant people, as fun and vibrant as their childed friends. They’ve never expressed regret. They get their “kid fix” from friends kids and grandkids, or not at all, since they aren’t fond of children.

Why do you get offended “as would anyone with kids”? Posts about reasons people HAVE kids don’t offend me. It really perplexes me that parents can get so offended when someone says they don’t want children.

_jsw_
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 11:33 pm: [report]

I have kids. I wasn’t offended by the things others said. I used to not have kids. I wasn’t offended then by similar comments. I figure it’s all a matter of personal choice. As I mentioned above, all that I really am offended by are those who have children with the expectation that the government or others will take care of financing their entire upbringing.

*sam*
wrote on August 26 2009 @ 11:59 pm: [report]

I was somewhat offended by shadowish‘s comments.. in particular:

*“When your old and barren and lifes joys has passed you…then what do you have to look forward too? Emptiness. Geez i feel sorry to you”
                  and
*“come back to me in 20 years and tell me you didnt make a mistake”

but that’s probably because while I certainly don’t tend to get offended very easily at all, I do get offended when others pass judgment on what’s ‘best’ for me, or what will or will not ‘fulfill’ my life.

...that shoving your religion down my throat…

peanutz2
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 01:06 am: [report]

It is interesting how everyone assumes that people who don’t have children are inherently selfish.  What about people who choose not to have children because they know they can’t or won’t give them the love, attention and resources they need.  Whether they want to cure cancer or party all night, I think it is selfless rather than selfish for them to use a little birth control. 
There are so many people who have children and use them to fulfill their own dreams, or worse, ignore them completely. I think the world could use a little more of this non-child wanting “selfishness”

beeper
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 01:11 am: [report]

To BrookeVB: Would you be my best friend? You took the words out of my mouth and we are the same age. I agree with every single word of your posts.

To EarthGoddess: To each their own, but I find it truly saddening that you needed to reproduce in order to create an identity for yourself. It’s depressing to think that someday your child will inevitably leave your nest, and your empty, meaningless existance will promptly return. Good luck with that.

“Selfish vs. Selfless”.....realistically, who cares? Whether you want kids or want to remain childfree, both options are “wants”, and “wants” are SELFISH. (Gasp! Oh no! Not the “S” word!) We are all selfish, no matter which way we sway regarding this topic. Deal with it.

Kids creep me out. I have never wanted them. I hated other kids when I was a kid. I hated being a kid. And NO I am not a product of a broken home, nor was I abused, molested, etc. To anyone who doesn’t want children, read the book “Childfree and Loving It” by Nicki Defago. It’s great!

Of course, the following video always makes me reconsider my choice not to have children…..and for a brief moment, I wonder if I really will be missing out on a wonderful, and fulfilling experience…..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3wzCh3AV6A

NOT!!!!!!

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 03:08 am: [report]

One of my best friends got recently got married and started having children. He had a son who is now 2 - 3 and then he had TWINS!!! Two girls who are, like, 1 - 2.

Two weeks ago, at a wedding of a mutual friend, he found a minute to sit down and catch up with me since we had not gotten a chance to talk in awhile…

He could NOT relax for even an ENTIRE FIVE MINUTES without constantly keep tabs on where his kids were and what they were doing at all time. The conversation was like this… “So what have you been up to lately? Uh huh… yep… WHERE’S NATHAN? Oh, there he is… Sorry, go ahead. Uh huh. So everything is going well. How’s the job going? Uh huh… OMG, Where is ABBY??? Oh… she’s right over there. Sheesh… can’t relax. Anyways… you were saying?”

Um… yeah. That is enough to turn ANYBODY off on the idea of parenthood. No, thank you. I would not mind maybe babysitting once in awhile to give my friends a break. I would even be cool with trying to make a positive contribution to this world as a mentor figure to kids, like give kids advice/tips about how to get by in this world and how to handle things in life… but then go back home to my normal life and that’s that.
Even if people want kids, I don’t know why so many people feel a need to have their own when there are already millions of unwanted kids out there and why people don’t consider adopting.

Its almost as if some people have kids simply because they can. And they act like they are doing some kind of noble thing… but if you think about it, there is nothing more selfish, is there? Sure, kids are a lot of work and all that. But do you ever notice how these people just NEVER shut up about their kids and its as if they completely forget that life goes on outside of their house… and that nobody really gives a #&@$% if Bobby learned his A,B,C’s last week. All I think is “Yeah, he kinda has to because you can’t make it very far in life if you can’t #&@$% read!”

Its kinda funny when parents are impressed by the dumbest things their kids do… or even act surprised. Like “OMG… he’s developing! He actually learned something! I gotta tell you… I had my doubts. Whew… what a load off my shoulders!”

Anyways, yeah, the world is overpopulated and the last thing we need are more little #&@$% running around our planet.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 05:32 am: [report]

The whole selfish or not selfish part of this argument needs to die.  It’s completely irrelevant.  I think most people should have kids because it’s a truly enriching and wonderful experience.  It’s not because your selfish if you don’t.  It’s because you miss out if you don’t.  Period.  Oh and I’m also tired of the “world is overpopulated” garbage.  If you’re posting on this website, chances are your country isn’t overpopulated, so drop that garbage please. 

It really does seem to me like alot of people are making these arguments for themselves.  Look if you don’t want to have kids yet.. then don’t.  It IS alot of responsibility… but I meet very very few people who’ve had kids who regret doing it.  So don’t pretend kids are a bad experience and that’s why you’re avoiding it.

I’m also a bit offended by hangingwithmygnomie’s comment about talking about their kids all the time… When you have kids there is NOTHING as interesting as what your kids do every day… and sadly NOTHING that you do even holds a candle to that.  I understand thats annoying to you.. and I agree that people should talk about other things.  But make no bones about it… people talk about their kids because to them it’s exciting, wonderful and just plan great. 

I’ve traveled the world, I’ve been to college, I played rugby, I played violin, I watch football, I’m in love, and at the end of the day NONE of those things except the partnership and love of my wife even come close to comparing to being a father.

Dixie
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 05:59 am: [report]

To jojo32…. Amen and thank you.  You took the words right out of my mouth.  Not everything in a mother’s life is PTA and PBS.  I must admit the first year or so you do have a terrible sense of identity loss, but you do push through it (if you want).  My son is three and he brightens my day and puts a smile on my face every morning, but that doesn’t mean my life has stopped.  My husband and I have our mojitos and our nights out.  I also have my girls night, my choreography job, my time alone and all the loud music I want…. just with headphones.  Not to mention my husband and I travel all around the country (and world occasionally) with our son and it’s wonderful.  I applaud the women (and men) who realize they don’t want kids (for whatever reason) and are sticking to their guns, but there is no reason no to not appreciate those of us who do.  No one situation is better than the other… it’s all how it’s perceived and taken.

I say to each their own and for those of you who say you don’t want children… there is nothing wrong with changing your mind.  You’ll adapt, you’ll get through it and you’ll make the best of your parenthood.  People, situations and life itself changes, It’s not that bad.  I’m not saying it’s not hard because sometimes it is overwhelmingly hard but it’s worth it!

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 07:04 am: [report]

doboji: “I’ve traveled the world, I’ve been to college, I played rugby, I played violin, I watch football, I’m in love, and at the end of the day NONE of those things except the partnership and love of my wife even come close to comparing to being a father.”

Fortunately, my sense of self worth doesn’t rely on website comments. In case you failed to notice, the title of this article was “10 reason NOT to have kids.” I could understand if I went to an article where the “NOT” was ommitted from the title, why you’d be offended. But that’s not the case.

If you don’t like what you’re hearing, go hit some forums with titles like “I love Celine Dion” or “Mom jeans are Sexy”.

Nothing else comes close? Really? I think maybe a doctor saving a life might be pretty fulfilling. Or curing cancer. Or inventing technology that forever changes the way man lives. Or being the first astronaut that lands on Mars or another planet probably exceeds the story about how little Billy’s courage in overcoming the adversity of peanut allergies.

deegee
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 07:07 am: [report]

I know it was not a scientific survey, but the one advice columnist Ann Landers did in the 1970s showed that many, many parents regretted having kids and if they had to do it all over again, they would not.

A summary of her responses was this:

“After five days of reading, counting, and sorting mail, a bleary-eyed staff of eight secretaries announced we had received over 10,000 responses, and—are you ready for this?—70 percent of those who wrote said, ‘No. If I had it to do over again, I would not have children.’”

Here is a link to that column (or series of columns).

http://happilychildfree.com/ann.htm

There are many parents out there who regret having children but it is surely not P/C to admit it.

I don’t have any problem with a parent saying, “I’m a mom and I love it.”  But I DO have a problem with a parent telling me, “You should have kids because <insert your favorite bingo here>” because that is nothing more than trying to “shove one’s religion down my throat” as another poster here wrote.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 07:34 am: [report]

*Yawn* I hate people. That includes children.

catscratchfever
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 07:35 am: [report]

I think it’s a little crazy that everyone is getting so defensive about this. 

@Shadowish - “Why are you soo offended? Its my opinion just like its your to not have children. I feel people like you are selfish. Dont like it? Suck my dick then bitch”

Oh, how I wish I’d been raised by an eloquent, tolerant father like YOU!  For the sake of your kid, please learn how to respect others before passing on your hatred.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 07:38 am: [report]

@catscratchfever: It’s his latent criminal in him (He’s Australian).

Or it could be all that hooning in his ute, I dunno. Go eat some Vegemite and wallaby.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 08:33 am: [report]

“I don’t have any problem with a parent saying, “I’m a mom and I love it.”  But I DO have a problem with a parent telling me, “You should have kids because <insert your favorite bingo here>” because that is nothing more than trying to “shove one’s religion down my throat” as another poster here wrote. “

But that’s exactly what you’re doing… trying to provide evidence about how most people regret having children.  Why do you feel the need to so vehemently defend your choice to not have children?  You don’t want em… just say you don’t want them… why do you feel it necessary to go on a crusade to uncover the secret unhappiness of parents?

“Fortunately, my sense of self worth doesn’t rely on website comments. In case you failed to notice, the title of this article was “10 reason NOT to have kids.” I could understand if I went to an article where the “NOT” was ommitted from the title, why you’d be offended. But that’s not the case.”

I originally commented on this article because I read “10 reasons not to have kids” and I honestly feel that ALL 10 reasons are ridiculous reasons to pass up the experience of being a Parent.  There are many other reasons not to be a parent that I think are legitimate… like I’m not ready for that responsibility, or I’m not financially capable, or I’m busy with a career that I love and don’t want to sacrifice and compromise.  But because diapers are yucky and to prevent overpopulation?  Thats just B.S.

Being a Doctor and saving a life vs Parenting…. my wife says parenting (and she is a Doctor, and has saved lives) And as for saving the world and curing cancer… I imagine the feeling is pretty comparable… When was the last time you saved the world? I was a parent this morning.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 08:38 am: [report]

11th reason to not have children:
I do not want to be like you

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 08:38 am: [report]

I feel like this thread is like a dieter trying to talk themselves out of a cookie… nahh it’s probably not really good, I bet it tastes bad. 

Children are awesome… being a parent is awesome.  If you decide you don’t want the experience… fine. But don’t B.S. yourself into thinking you’re not missing anything.

tk_2009
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 08:40 am: [report]

10 reasons I know what’s best for you:

1) I’ve done it, and I loved it
2) You’re stupid
3) Look at how things worked out for me, I’m awesome!
4) I’ve seen people like you, they are unhappy
5) You’re selfish, I’m certainly not
6) Everyone I know agrees with me
7) Here, read this book, I did
8) It WILL make you happy
9) Obviously, you’re wrong
10) What business do you have being in charge of something like your own happiness? What could you know about that?

It’s amazing to me that people never get tired of trying to tell other people how to live their lives. From the Jehovah’s Witness that knocks on your door to the troll in the forum, it’s all the same presumption. It seems to me that most of the sans-children people are saying they know it’s not their cup of tea, while a lot of the pro-children people are saying “you won’t know until you try it” (the first taste is free, as always, then you’re hooked).

I, like many others here, know that I don’t need to have kids to know I don’t want them, just as many people didn’t need to have them to know they did want them. Both are valid, neither can be honestly refuted with any success, nor should they be. I don’t need to try heroin to know it’s not for me (I’m not saying kids are like heroin, from what I’m told they’re more like Pringles - once you pop, you can’t stop).

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 08:46 am: [report]

@tonykuehn: I dislike just about everyone that goes door-to-door. Jehovah’s Witness, politicians, eco-mentalists, salesmen…

*sam*
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 08:58 am: [report]

@cheeeeEEEEse: even girl scouts??? how can you hate thin mints??

tk_2009
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 08:59 am: [report]

@Cheese: Yeah, me too. when I have something to say I usually just tie it to a brick and throw it through a window.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:18 am: [report]

@*sam*: I don’t like the scouts, just the cookies, sometimes you must accept evil to achieve things, like thin mints.

MissPiss
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:24 am: [report]

@MissDuplicity I dont know where you read that having a baby reduces your chance of having a “leaky vagina”... syphillis juice or whatever you call it… but thats just crazy!!! Not every woman who goes into motherhood chooses to have a clean, protected, guarded sex life. Just like not every person who is single is running around with STD juice leaking out of their vagina. I work at a hospital, and trust me… there are women who are on their 7th child who have more STDs than if you put a 100 single people in a room.

_jsw_
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:26 am: [report]

One of my kids is a Brownie, so I get the cookies without having to deal door-to-door sales. Yet another reason to have kids. Because, you know, it’s easier to buy the cookies. And that, like, totally makes up for any minor inconveniences.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:28 am: [report]

@jsw: That would probably be the only reason I would want one, to exploit them.

*sam*
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:29 am: [report]

@_jsw_: that’s almost a legitimate argument when it comes to thin mints and tagalongs. but totally explains why I love my nieces so much

EarthGoddess
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:30 am: [report]

@CheeeeEEEEse: As a proud Brownie Mom, I have to defend the scouts ... it’s a great thing for girls to participate in. I was in scouts for years and have some great friends and wonderful memories because of it. I’m so glad my daughter has the opportunity for the same. But, yeah ... the cookies are awesome, too!

_jsw_
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:30 am: [report]

@MissPiss: Agreed. My daughter’s mother works in labor and delivery, and there is no correlation whatsoever between marital status, number of kids, and STDs. Also, of course, one can be in a monogamous relationship without ever having children, and it’s also possible - I hear - to have sex safely even if you’re single or childless. Shockingly enough.

Anyway, I’ve contacted Jerry Springer, and he’s going to have us all on his show. I’ll send out the PM invites later.

GreenAura
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:36 am: [report]

For the love of Thin Mints, can we please please please let this thread die?? 

Here, I’ll sum it up for you: 
You don’t want kids… GOOD FOR YOU.  You aren’t selfish, you’re honest with your feelings.  Keep up the good work.

Okay, so you want/have kids… GOOD FOR YOU.  You aren’t selfish, you’re honest with your feelings.  Keep up the good work.

There, now that I said that, I think we can all agree that I am right and the rest of you are wrong

Can we please let this die now??

_jsw_
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:36 am: [report]

@CheeeeEEEEse and @*sam*: It’s true. I’m entirely selfish in my love of having my daughters. Yes, there were years of ass-wiping and so on, but now that they’re a bit older (well, a little bit - one’s in grade school and the other’s in pre-school), I’ve come to appreciate how useful they are. They’ll do chores, fetch me things, compliment me, and so on, and, given how young they are now, there’s so much more they’ll be able to do for me later, for example once they can drive and even more so when they can bring me my 40s in bags without me having to do anything at all. Having children is an initial investment that pays off well if you are effective in training and disciplining them. Shock collars are useful in that regard, FWIW.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:41 am: [report]

@jsw: I’d rather a roomba and a mini-fridge next to the couch.

powplz
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:42 am: [report]

@GreenAura - this is the internet, the only thing that dies is everyone’s eyesight, slowly worn away by squinting into a screen.

*sam*
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:47 am: [report]

@_jsw_: can’t all of those things be accomplished with getting married though?? minus the thin mints of course—that requires my siblings procreating and creating nothing but girls… which has actually happened, so I think I’m covered.

_jsw_
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:48 am: [report]

@CheeeeEEEEse: Yes, and kids could get those for you. Under your plan, who stocks the mini fridge? See? A flaw.

@GreenAura: It died days ago. It’s now a zombie thread, engaged in a futile search for brains.

_jsw_
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:50 am: [report]

@*sam*: I suppose, as long as the nieces and/or nephews are close enough to hear when you ring the little bell that means you need something. Plus, other parents are notoriously defensive about you putting the shock collars on their kids, which makes the whole thing more work.

*sam*
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:53 am: [report]

@_jsw_: yeah, but it’s my brother’s two girls that are the oldest… and he pushes Lexi over b/c he thinks it’s ‘funny’ and will ‘toughen her up.’ and he’s taught her to ‘only hit with a closed fist.’ (she turns 2 next month)... so something tells me a shock collar wouldn’t be a big deal for him…

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:53 am: [report]

@jsw: Kids can’t buy beer. I see no flaw.

_jsw_
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:58 am: [report]

@*sam*: Sounds like you’re good to go, then! All the benefits and none of the costs. Well done!

@CheeeeEEEEse: Not legally. But with the appropriate compromising photos, sales clerks will do almost anything you ask them to do.

deegee
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 10:11 am: [report]

@doboji, I was replying to your statement, “...but I meet very very few people who’ve had kids who regret doing it.  So don’t pretend kids are a bad experience and that’s why you’re avoiding it.”

Other than the Ann Landers survey, how many parents have the courage to say they wish they never had kids?  These people are in the closet, like many gays (not me) and atheists (I am one), because revealing this secret is often met with scorn.

We childfree are bombarded with insulting bingo after bingo after bingo from the childed.  As I mentioned in my first post, we childfree are forced to put up with what are nothing more than lifestyle choices made by others.  So ONE childfree person writes an article giving a little bit back to the breeders.  Not fun for you, huh?  Welcome to the world of those being ridiculed for our choices.

catscratchfever
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 11:02 am: [report]

@doboji, I’m pretty sure the purpose of this article was to list things those of us without children are missing out on…

Since I work in a foster home, however, I actually do get to experience some of that stuff I’m supposedly missing.  And then I get to go home.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 11:30 am: [report]

Deegee,

I find it hard to imagine that you are ridiculed on a daily basis for not having children.  Who’s doing this?  And what’s with the labeling of people like subcultures or racial boundaries… the childfree vs the childed/the breeders.  Having children doesn’t make you a different species of human.  It simply changes part of your life experience.  I suspect that most of the ridicule you’re feeling is guilt generated. Our society is driven towards “breeding”, I’m sure you “non-breeders” certainly feel a bit of pressure… but you have to see how natural it is that our society works that way.  Reproducing is probably the most primal of all human compulsions… You seriously can’t expect society to suddenly reverse itself in order to not “ridicule” people who choose to not have children.

BrookeVB
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 11:43 am: [report]

Just food for thought… It is a proven fact that the industrialized world is breeding itself stupid. This occurs because intelligent, independent women in modern countries are using birth control, condoms, or abstinence to limit the number of children they have while others are continuing to have many. Studies have been done showing that women of above average I.Q. are having between 0-2 children while women of below average I.Q. are having 3+. No, this does not apply to EVERYONE, but it does cover the majority. Most children get their I.Q. potential from their mother, so fathers weren’t included in the testing. As a result of this breeding inequity, the modern world IS in fact breeding itself stupid.

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 11:52 am: [report]

@doboji - as I said before, my best friend has kids and I have a relationship with those kids and sometimes babysit to give my friends a break. I also grew up as an only child but I have lots of cousins my age that kinda substitute as siblings (we are all really close)... and they are also starting to have children and I also have a relationship with those kids.

In your ignorance, you assume that you have to have your own to have the experience of seeing the world as if it were new again through the eyes of a young person.

you keep repeating the fact that children are awesome. in your ignorance again, i never said children were not awesome. i said i was annoyed by the PARENTS of children. its not the children’s fault that the parents lose all sense of self identity.

again, this is an article titled “10 reasons to NOT have kids”... not titled “i think parenting is the ultimate lifestyle and i am so into it that even my own kids think i’m creepy”.

just because i don’t care to hear a 5 hour story about how bobby is doing in school, doesn’t mean that i don’t like bobby. i feel sorry for bobby and know that when he reaches his teen years, he will probably rebel the hardest against his overbearing control over his life.

someday, your kids’ peers will become the main socially significant group… and they will probably just tell you what you want to hear so they can get out of the house and spend more time with their friends… and have a countdown of the days until they turn 18.

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:00 pm: [report]

Those who think the argument that the world is overpopulated with people should probably take a second look at the world from nature’s perspective.

One example… the ocean has been SO overfished that 90% of the large fish population are gone.

The last thing we need in this world right now are more people to rape and pillage our natural resources.

Oh, SLAM!

Me = 1.
Preggers and Mr. Moms = 0.

deegee
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:00 pm: [report]

Doboji, I was referring to WE, the childfree, not necessarily each individual childfree person equally.  I am grateful that I, a single man, do not get bingoed as much as women, especially married women.

My comparison to the childfree with gays and atheists is only in the way their views are looked down upon, the way they are treated by businesses and governmental policies (everything from the tax code to equal pay for equal work to housing choices to dining out) .  Gays and atheists aren’t a different “species” of humans, either, but they are often treated as such.

I have no guilt about my decision to be childfree.  I wake up every morning thankful I made that choice when I was 20 years old, and how that decision is the main reason as to why I was able to retire last year at the age of 45.

I do expect society to reverse itself in the way childfree people are treated.  It won’t come quickly or easily.  At one time, normal treatment for black people was to have them sit at the back of the bus, at separate lunch counters, and have separate water fountains.  This was part of governmental policy and in the business world.  But this tyranny of the majority for many years was unfair and wrong and finally ended.  Gay people have made great strides in the last 40 years in obtaining better treatment from the non-gay population.  Atheists are making strides, too, but not nearly as fast.

Reproducing may be primal for animals who have no control over their sexual functions, but for humans that is not true.  Reproducing is a lifestyle CHOICE.  That is why we have birth control.  And I do expect society to not ridicule those who do not want to reproduce.  DO those who partake in other lifestyle CHOICES ridicule those who do not partake in those choices?  Do skiers ridicule non-skiers and bingo them as to what they are “missing”?  Do stamp collectors ridicule those who do not collect stamps and tell them what they are “missing”?  Why are the childfree then ridiculed by those who made the lifestyle CHOICE to have children?

As long as the breeders force the childfree to bear the costs of their breeding, we childfree will speak out in protest.  And if along the way we can convince some of the fence-sittters to not have kids, so much the better.

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:00 pm: [report]

@BrookeVB: That sounds like a plot to a movie, oh wait, it is. Go pick up Idiocracy.

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:01 pm: [report]

followup… mean to address those who think the overpopulated argument is false or otherwise “stupid”.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:06 pm: [report]

@HangingWithMyGnomies

You actually had me laughing out loud a little with that last post.  First of all nothing I said has been ignorant at all.. but perhaps I wasn’t clear.  Parenting children is awesome.. it’s a fantastic feeling, from my perspective it is an overwhelmingly satisfying thing.  It is NOT the same as babysitting someone elses kids. 

Rather I think it is particularly ignorant to declare that somehow by being a parent you’ve sacrificed your identity, and have devolved to this “creepy” parent thing.  I find it really insulting that you insinuate that by being parents we’ve become these mindless zombie drones who wander around unable to think or do anything other than be a parent. 

The whole bobby story thing is pretty ignorant though… It’s no different than you telling me a 5 hour story about your life.  One should not talk about one’s self or one’s own life incessantly… whether that be about their kids or the cute bartender.  It is friggin boring.

As for the ticking timebomb of the child’s final release from the overbearing bondage of my tyrannical parenting.  THAT is incredibly ignorant… firstly because you have no idea what kind of parent I am, and secondly because not everyone grows up and tosses their parents to the wayside to go off and destroy themselves.  Sure I partied as hard as the rest of them… but I still maintain a solid relationship with my parents… and now that I have children of my own that bond is even stronger.  Don’t belittle my life to feel better about your own.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:08 pm: [report]

So how many children have you adopted Hanging? Do you walk to work, and how much land cultivation have you done this week?

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:08 pm: [report]

GO @deegee!!! Oh, double SLAM!

@deegee = one.
@Doboji = zero.

Exactly, and furthermore, @Doboji keeps ignorantly implying that just because people don’t have children of their own, doesn’t mean they don’t have children in their lives. I have another friend who just got married… he and his wife are not interested in having children… but my friend is a high school math teacher and he’s really good at his job because all of his students love his class. He is probably making more of a contribution to this world by educating Doboji’s children than cranking out more of his own.

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:11 pm: [report]

@Doboji: I feel pretty good about my life regardless of said here.

Again, I’m not the baby boomer hanging out on “10 reasons NOT to have kids” trying to convert people, loser.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:12 pm: [report]

Did you just say that the “childfree” are forced to bear the cost of those of us who have children?

Wow… you are special.  I say we just forcibly sterilize half the world in order to make the next 40 years or so of our lives better.  Afterall we can’t go spending all of our hard earned cash on all those little rugrats.  ME ME ME ME

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:14 pm: [report]

But you are the ignorant ass who thinks he knows everything about people you don’t know squat about.

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:20 pm: [report]

Because some of us are still trying to solve problems caused by overpopulation.

You probably think global warming is a myth.

Sorry, I don’t want to support crazy breeders like OctoMom and her children with tax money… but instead spend my money on research to cure cancer or something.

By the way, I do lend myself to various causes. I raise puppies for service dog programs for the handicapp and blind, raise money for charity - mostly for cancer since I lost two close family members to cancer, and I spent a lot of time with my family as well as friends whom I consider family having grown up together all our lives.

Parents are selfish because they concentrate their efforts on their own homes and their own kids and that usually keeps them too busy to help out with the rest of the world. “Sorry, I don’t have time to raise service dogs for the blind, I have to drive Bobby to soccer practice and he really needs me to be there to cheer him on because they are giving away trophies today.”

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:22 pm: [report]

She… I am a woman, #&@$%.

deegee
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:26 pm: [report]

I say we should stop encouraging those who breed who lack the resources to raise them.  And we should make the breeders pay more of the costs of raising their kids.  We should also make it easier and cheaper (or free) for those who choose to be sterilized becasue for the government it is a far more fiscally responsible thing to do.  Abortions should be free, too, as would birth control.  IVF would not be paid for taxpayers, neither would Viagra.

We have tax credits for the mere act of breeding, but no childfree school tax credit for those who don’t breed.  If you work for a company which has a subsidized group health plan and you have a kid, your total compensation will increase (even though your value to the company has not increased) because of the employer subsidy for the group health plan.  Do the breeders compensate the childfree when their bratty kids ruin their meals?  Do the breeders compensate the childfree when their bratty kids ruin their movies?  We childfree pay for the breeders all the time.

BrookeVB
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 12:28 pm: [report]

@doboji: I would be all for forced sterilization if only it were constitutional… Damn those freedoms! I have a fantasy invention idea all my friends know about. I think there should be an I.Q. test when teenagers apply for a driving permit. If they score under 110, then there should be a spiffy incognito laser that sterilizes them when the photo is snapped for their ID card. This would be fabulous for the earth and for the future of humankind.

kaffy
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 02:16 pm: [report]

@sadie
I think you and I were separated at birth.

I decided when I was a teenager that I was not having children because of the stress and hurtful relationship my father pushed onto me.  I know I’m very similar to him, and I would NEVER ever do that to another human being, ie. a child of mine.

I can’t fathom having a thing growing inside of me for 9months and then pushing out a watermelon. Nothing about pregnancy sounds fascinating. And the after effects of a pregnancy, you’re stuck with a kid.. Uh. No.thanks. I’ll stick with my furry babies.. my cats and dog.

I travel alot. for pleasure, and I would not be able to do as much traveling as I would want with a child.  @Sadie, like you, I had many people tell me that my mind will change when I find the right man.

Yes, I found the right man, and you know what?? He too doesn’t want children.  I think if I found someone who wanted children, I don’t know that the relationship would work out, because in no way would I change my mind.  The whole experience of Childbirth does not sound fun. Besides, the man gets to have all the fun, while the woman goes through pure hell for this child.

Nope.
Not for me.

Yes, I’m very selfish.  and Yes, I probably wouldn’t be a good parent because I don’t have patience. Like I said, I’m like my father in many ways, and I wouldn’t push that behavior onto a child.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 03:27 pm: [report]

Oh well… I guess I’m just glad people like you are in the minority.  BTW just for reference… I’m a 31 year old Democrat.. just to show how off you are in your assanine assumptions. So shutup, pay your taxes and my kids will drive on the roads you sponsored… thanks for your hard work for my benefit.

deegee
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 04:19 pm: [report]

The definition of “selfish” is the last post by doboji.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 05:03 pm: [report]

Whatever helps you sleep well at night.

cme4brain
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 06:28 pm: [report]

This is an interesting discussion, I could write volumes.  I am a 50 year old physician, married for the second time, have my first and only child at age 2 years.  Absolutely, most people are not suited to be good parents, if they were we would have a lot more responsible adults running around, but we have welfare breeders and immoral scumbags directly related to poor parenting.  I agree with some of the posts- if you don’t want kids, even as a woman, it is no shame to you!  I have a baby I love dearly, but neither I nor my wife are morphing into a baby-provider!  I will still feed my vices and protect my marital relationship- even it that means my baby won’t do 5 sports after school!  A child should be a welcomed addition to a family, not the focus of it.  Your marriage should be the spouse first, and if there is time left over from attending their needs, then you tend to your kids!  Do it the other way around, as most women do, then you get fat and bitchy and wonder why your man sleeps with his secretary- she at least is interested in him while you are doing for the kids!  That sounds harsh, but you know it is true.  I will not sacrifice my retirement to put my kid in Harvard- he can pay his way as I did!  You had better protect your marriage or when the child moves out you are left with two strangers who don’t know each other.  Include your child in your marriage, but don’t focus it on the child.  Most do not do that, and you get spoiled brats who think the world revolves around them because you did!  I wanted my son and will work hard to take care him, but not at the expense of my wife!  And she feels the same way!  Priorities!  They should be: #1-Spouse and marriage, #2-child, #3-parents.  Have sex with your husband rather than be a soccer mom- everyone benefits!

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 06:33 pm: [report]

i noticed that doboji is spending more time on his online breeding propaganda crusade than he is with his kids.

i am a software engineer (interface designer, actually)... and I just finished a major project and planning to go on vacation next week to the Outer Banks in North Carolina (having a big family reunion and all pitching in for an awesome beach house with a swimming pool and a pool table for the week)... so I am getting things cleaned up and getting my ducks in a row for when I get back.

what is his excuse?

unless dobo is one of those supervisor type Dad’s… just kinda hangs out on the sidelines while his wife does all the hard work. maybe that’s why breeding seems so wonderful from his perspective.

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 07:10 pm: [report]

HangingWithMyGnomies,

I love this #&@$%, seriously. Debating topics like this on forums is just a blast for me.  I have strong opinions and I love nothing more than to hear other points of view, and challenge them.  I actually am pretty open minded and CAN be convinced I’m wrong.. been wrong many times. 

Today was a good day, my Son is in daycare during the day, because my wife is a doctor, and we both work full time.  Today however my son got to his day care and proceeded to puke all over one of the teachers… wooohoo go Sammy.  Since my wife doesnt have schedule flexibility at all, I took the day off to take care of him.  We had a blast…

It really isn’t that difficult to take care of your kids, they’re actually intelligent human beings and don’t require constant manipulation except in the very beginning.  My son is 1 now, and he’s perfectly happy to play with his toys and look through his books for a good 15-20 minutes at a time while daddy works.

He’s in bed at 7:30PM after a few books with Daddy and then my wife got home, we had dinner, watched some TV and other adult activities.  I’m feeling pretty good… how was your evening?

doboji
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 07:12 pm: [report]

Quick clarification as I reread my post… the day care we take him to… (the Jewish community center) has a pretty strict sick policy… so they basically kicked the kid out for 24 hours because of the little puking incident.

Kat
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 08:37 pm: [report]

What is WITH the urge for people like doboji to rampage into childfree articles and scream about how great their lives are? I’m sure your life is great, and so is everyone else’s on here. There’s no need to prove anything… If you choose to have kids, then obviously you’ve weighed out the pros/cons and decided, “YES, I WOULD LIKELY ENJOY THIS.”

It doesn’t really make sense to “challenge someone’s point of view”, when the point of view is simply based on personal preferences. You can’t argue someone into enjoying food they hate…. you cannot argue me into liking the taste of bananas, nor can you argue me into liking kids. It’s not even a logically based thing. In much the same way I have heard of people just desiring children, in a visceral emotional way I do not want children. I feel at best, utter disinterest, and at worst revulsion.

Just accept that sometimes certain people will not like the same activities and people as you. It doesn’t make you WRONG for liking a life with kids, nor does it make me WRONG for not wanting or enjoying that life.

I’m glad you had a good night, I really am, but FOR ME, that sounds like hell. Perhaps my night would sound like hell to you… a bit of websurfing and co-op videogames with my guy, petting the cats and then animating quietly while my fiance reads on the bed. That may sound boring as hell to you, but I’d take that over your night any time. That’s because we’re different people. Stop insisting your preferences are always “right” because you just happen to be happy.

LauraRB
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:27 pm: [report]

Oy - I never intended on having children… I was pretty sure I wasn’t going to.  Then I forgot my BC for one weekend vacation (after 9 years of faithful service) and BAM!  Preggers.  Thankfully, after almost 15 years of playing the field, I had managed to find Mr. Right.  Shotgun wedding, beautiful baby girl born 4 months later!  I wasn’t planning to have children, but I do my best and I think I’m a pretty good mom (except for the fact that I KNOW my kids are geniuses, and so therefore can exhibit a teensy lack of patience at times and I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE my kids) but there are times, when I’m trying to run a successful business (and get the credit that we women commonly have to fight for and men just take for granted) and retain some sort of social life, I fondly remember the days before “hey mom, hey mom, hey mom, hey mom!”  So, why is this even a debate?  Sometimes I think people who are the most vociferous in the defense of “their side” are the ones most regretting whatever decision they have made and are trying to convince themselves they haven’t ruined/wasted their lives more than trying to change the monds of their adversaries.

Kat
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:32 pm: [report]

@LauraRB I agree. Well said!
Although… after 11 years of BC, my BAM! PREGGERS became a BAM! OMG going to the abortion clinic. I know it’s not the right choice for everyone, but it was for me. Sometimes my mom-friends imply that even if I don’t CHOOSE to have a kid, sometimes “accidents happen”. And then they wink at me. It’s all I can do not to say “One did. I fixed it.”

CheeeeEEEEse
wrote on August 27 2009 @ 09:40 pm: [report]

@LauraRB: Wat qualifies as a ‘genius’ these days? I started reading at 2 and a half, and I’m borderline. Children still revolt me, wonderful that it makes you feel better, but I would feel miserable.

doboji
wrote on August 28 2009 @ 05:52 am: [report]

Kat… I think I’ve failed utterly to make my point in all these discussions.  My point was never to say people who choose not to have children are evil doers who must be punished.  My point was to respond to the shallowness of this article, which seems to persuade people not to have kids in order to prevent “overpopulation” and vomit.  I think those arguments are ridiculous… to make the argument that the parenting experience is summed up by those incredibly shallow negatives is stupid B.S. and I wanted to call that out.  I think your reasoning for not having children seems perfectly reasonable, I’m not here to try and convince you otherwise.  The things I love about being a parent you’d probably hate…

But it’s not like you’re calling me a “breeder” and seeking to absolve yourself of tax burden related to folks who have children. 

BTW… which Co-op video game? I play quite a few of those myself.

deegee
wrote on August 28 2009 @ 07:35 am: [report]

You still don’t get it, doboji.

To us childfree, the reasons in FAVOR of having children are all selfish, shallow, and ridiculous.  To us childfree, the reasons in favor of NOT having children are all reasonable, practical, everyday, and tangible.  The article does a great job in pointing them out.

What is wrong with us childfree seeking to lower our tax burden by having the government stop rewarding what is merely a lifestyle CHOICE made by others?

doboji
wrote on August 28 2009 @ 08:27 am: [report]

Degree,

It’s pretty sad when your identity is based on something you don’t have.

I think we should just all vote on a standard of lifestyle and tax anyone who steps outside of that standard.  That way we can make sure we don’t have to pay for people who pay for stupid lifestyle choices, like excessive vacations and skydiving.

deegee
wrote on August 28 2009 @ 08:59 am: [report]

What is sad about it?  How else does someone describe his or her life without something we don’t have or want?  I wake up every morning very happy because I have no kids.  I am also very happy I have no diseases, so I can call myself disease-free.  Many parts of everyone’s lives are improved by NOT being something we perceive as negative.  What you have trouble with is that for many of us, having children is a NEGATIVE so we are happy to be FREE of those negatives.  Hence the term childFREE.

I prefer to describe myself as “Retired at 45” because that is something I have.  And that is because I never had or wanted to have kids.  But this thread is about being childfree, not being retired at 45.

And it is far different to tax a certain lifestyle choice than to reward it.  We don’t give tax breaks to skiers or stamp collectors, and those hobbies require some degree of skill.  So why do we give tax breaks to those who have unprotected sex resulting in the woman having birth 9 months later, hardly a skill because anyone can do it?

deegee
wrote on August 28 2009 @ 01:08 pm: [report]

My auto insurance company has also stuck a “-free” label on me but it is a terrific one.  It is “Accident-Free” and I save $156 for 6 months because of it.  Driving safely and not getting into car accidents is something I am very pleased with and am delighted to have that “-free” label attached to me.  [And I attribute this in part to being childfree because I lack having distractions (i.e. kids) in my car.]

beeper
wrote on August 28 2009 @ 03:04 pm: [report]

Doboji, get off the computer and go pay attention to your kid if you love fatherhood so much. Jeez. Perhaps you and your son should go have a picnic with the teacher he puked on. I’m sure the teacher really enjoyed that incident.

Brooke VB you have impressed me once again. I love your driver’s permit idea!

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on August 29 2009 @ 03:17 am: [report]

EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW WITH DOBOJI: DRINKING THE AWESOME PARENTHOOD KOOL-AID

@doboji: “I’ve traveled the world, I’ve been to college, I played rugby, I played violin, I watch football, I’m in love, and at the end of the day NONE of those things [...] come close to comparing to being a father.”

His statement actually contains an arguably valid point. Unfortunately, because @doboji speaks in his own dobojian dialect of english, called “dobojish”, the point gets lost in translation. Fortunately, my team of language experts drafted the following interpretation in universal english for the rest of us:

“It’s a false supposition that people with children are missing out on everything while other people without children are not missing out anything.”

Well said, @doboji.

Hey, ever wonder what it takes to maintain a happy marriage; be a positive role model for your kids; hold things down at the forte (keeping the toilets gleaming and the diapers fresh and the meals hot); make sweet, sweet muskrat love to your wife by romantic glow of the television every night; AND YET SOMEHOW STILL MANAGE TO DEDICATE YOUR TIME AND INFINITE BRILLIANT WISDOM ON THE FRISK??? It’s just not possible! Or is it? We asked @doboji and got the inside scoop on his secret to success…

@doboji: “It really isn’t that difficult to take care of your kids, they’re actually intelligent human beings and don’t require constant manipulation except in the very beginning. My son is 1 now, and he’s perfectly happy to play with his toys and look through his books for a good 15-20 minutes at a time while daddy works.”

Wow. For those of you who forgot to bring your dobojian decoder rings, all that translates to “awesomeness”.

@doboji: “Quick clarification as I reread my post… the day care we take him to… (the Jewish community center) has a pretty strict sick policy… so they basically kicked the kid out for 24 hours because of the little puking incident.”

Two words… Nobody cares.

duckie
wrote on August 29 2009 @ 08:04 am: [report]

Gnomies- you are hilarious.

ledork
wrote on September 3 2009 @ 02:57 pm: [report]

Don’t know if anyone has said this yet, as I grew tired of reading the redundant “your selfish/no YOU’RE selfish” posts. But, just so ya know, not every mother has saggy boobs. Gah!

SparkleSprinkler
wrote on September 13 2009 @ 02:17 pm: [report]

This is retarded.  Noone is right and noone is wrong.  It’s all a matter of personal preference.  Some people who end up having kids find that their life has more meaning and more love.  Some people end up miserable and stressed.  Why?  Matter of personalities, willing to sacrafice things, time, etc…how that makes one feel…People are different.  Big whoop.  This ought to be an argument over the color Red.  It’s a great color.  No it’s not!  Yes it is!  Nuh uh!  Seriously!  WTF!

kellibabie
wrote on October 1 2009 @ 05:23 pm: [report]

I just read this article on Yahoo!, and I have to say I am a HUGE fan. For those out there that choose to be parents, and hopefully are doing the best they can, bravo! You obviously found something that you feel warrants your energy and attention that will be equally rewarding for you. However, there are those of us who either place the value of our time higher than that of providing for someone else, or who just don’t enjoy children. I respect both sides, and I happen to fall on the in favor of childless side. Good parents are a rarity these days, so for those of you who are (you know who you are!) keep it up! But, if you ever run into someone that says that they don’t ever want children, for the love of god PLEASE DON’T EVER say “You’ll change your mind someday.”  If I hear it one more time, I may go ballistic. I have had my mind made up for years now, and if my mother can come to terms with the fact that I will not be giving her grandchildren, it is about freakin time the rest of the world does!  So, whether you are a proud parent of a proud dependent free, PLEASE respect the choices and opinions of others!

HangingWithMyGnomies
wrote on October 1 2009 @ 06:22 pm: [report]

I try to respect the choices of everybody. However, I find it VERY difficult to muster up an ounce of respect for the type of parents who INSIST on parenthood being meaningful contribution to the world.

Its one thing to find joy and fulfillment in growing your family and I’m all for that. Love your kids? Want to have more? Go for it!

But its a totally different thing to call it a meaningful contribution to the world and put it in the same class as people who devote their lives to finding cures for diseases, saving the environment, feeding the poor, teaching the uneducated, etc, etc, etc.

Being a good parent whose kids didn’t turn out to be total A-holes doesn’t make you important or special and it doesn’t count as a contribution to the world… that is, the world OUTSIDE the walls of your house! It just makes you a good parent and decent family person.

If the “baby factories” of this world have regrets about not making any REAL contributions to the world, then they can still get out there and do something! There is still time!

kellibabie
wrote on October 1 2009 @ 10:03 pm: [report]

I have to agree with you. My own mother went through a divorce and raised us on her own, a few times almost losing the house that was over our heads- no fault of her own. This would be why I feel as though people that actually CAREFULLY plan their parenthood, or those who do whatever it takes to get through it, really deserve our respect. However, I also think that people that choose not to have children should also be respected. If not for their own “selfish” reasons then for that of their “could be” offspring. I think it is a commendable thing that people know that they are either a.) not in the position to have children (a MAJOR financial obligation) or b.) don’t care for the responsibilty or c.) know that they don’t care to sacrafice anothers’ needs in front of their own. I belong to that group, although part of my “master plan” consists of adopting at about the age of 40, I don’t feel as though people that do not care to have children should be penalized or judged, as they unfortunately are in our society. Having children is a HUGE responsibilty. Those that choose to do so, Amen! On the same token, those that choose not to should be equally applauded.

ChocoBoo
wrote on October 5 2009 @ 05:19 am: [report]

Amazing how this article, which I think was acutally just meant as a tongue-in-cheek piece, brings out the whole ‘mommy warrior’ in alot of folks.
I still don’t know how to react. I love seeing how happy some of my girlfriends are with their kids, yet I STILL get flack from some of them for NOT having kids. I get labelled ‘selfish’ for going back to school, taking dance lessons, ‘wasting my time on frivolous courses’? How I choose to fill the ‘childless’ hours of my life seems to be good enough reason for mothers to attack me. Sorry, I don’t get that ‘warm, fuzzy’ feeling when mommies attack me for that. Makes me think my decision couldn’t have been too bad.

sportzriter13
wrote on November 16 2009 @ 07:26 pm: [report]

how about the fact having a kid would put the brakes on education? I know I want to have kids when I’m older, but DEFINITELY not right now. One of my former classmates is due soon and I do wonder what she’d be doing right now if she wasn’t pregnant.
My first bf’s sister had a baby during high school and as a reward for getting her HS diploma she was able to go on a trip of her choosing. I will forever be haunted by ex-boyfriend’s mom explaining “she’s not going to college now, she’ll have to go to work and support her child.I’m just glad she could finish high school”.

Sway
wrote on November 17 2009 @ 11:02 am: [report]

I’ve had quite a mix of feelings reading this, the comments, not the original post. The post I read as a tongue-in-cheek blurb and never took it seriously. But some of these comments are quite disturbing. Personally, I love kids (well, generally-some are honestly just brats) but I am undecided as whether to have any of my own, and I don’t intend to decide for at least 10 years. I do feel certain pressure about having children, but it’s more of a nuisance thank a real issue. People bring up the same arguments that have been repeated here, using typical go-to words such as “barren”, “spinster”, “unfulfilled” and “lonely”. But I never thought that people actually believed that not choosing to have children signifies selfishness. Really? Is that a serious accusation?
  I have been a teacher for several years now and have seen many different examples of parenting, and indeed, many people who should not have children, do. I started in the special education field and worked for a school that specialized in autism (but accepted many students with a wide variety of different disabilities). I quit after a year because it was simply too hard on me. It wasn’t the students, it was the parents of some of the children. 3 students were being abused, 2 physically abused by their parents and 1 sexually abused by a friend of the parents. Many of the parents were not equipped to handle the special needs children, were resentful that their children were not “normal” or were simply in denial. I couldn’t handle. If you ever happen to meet a career special education teacher or caregiver, for goodness sake, buy them a drink (a good one)- they deserve it.
I then decided to volunteer as a teacher abroad in poorer and less developed countries. I have since then worked in a few different orphanages and country schools in Asia and now I live and work in Eastern Europe. My partner has two children who I love and they love me. But I’m not their mother. We decided before I even met the kids that I wouldn’t try to play the mother role. They have a mother, they have a father, in my opinion they don’t need more. My role with them is more as a friend/big sister. When we all traveled together to America to visit my family, people assumed they were my children. When they found out I wasn’t their mother, people’s attitude towards me changed markedly. It was pretty hurtful at times.

The idea, which some apparently subscribe to, that my life is less fulfilling, less meaningful or less important simply because I used condoms is immature, exclusionary and simply ridiculous. Doing the math now, I can say I have had a direct and positive effect on the lives of at least 150 children. I still get letters from kids who now know how to write because I helped them learn. If I died tomorrow, I would feel no regrets (I would probably wish I weren’t dead, but still…)

landesign
wrote on November 17 2009 @ 08:38 pm: [report]

Wow, what a varied list of views.
Two cents worth: Having our son was the best thing
we ever did. I didn’t mind the diapers, the food all over the place, stepping on toys in the dark, watching him turn the box that the microwave came in into a fort
that kept him amused for hours, and the sight of him dancing, at the age of 3 or 4, in front of the TV to
Ricky Martin’s ‘La Vida Loca’.  It’s all good.

NaomiK
wrote on November 17 2009 @ 08:47 pm: [report]

How about making fertility treatments illegal? More people would adopt if the weren’t forcing their bad genes into another person. Anyone else wondering if the spike in disease in this country has anything to do with the spike in people who shouldn’t be able to have children having kids? Oh, yeah, and lets give our teens condoms.

one tough kitty
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 10:12 am: [report]

my friends & i always said “buckle up & no babies!”

SouthOC
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 06:11 pm: [report]

I have grown children now (24 through 29), but when I was growing up it wasn’t really a choice.  It was something you just did.

As a result, many of us got married too young, and really weren’t ready for the responsibility.

Although I wouldn’t give mine back (I love them like crazy), I really respect and admire people who either put it off until they’re older (and ready) or choose not to have them at all.

Additionally, people have to become certified to do most of the dangerous things in life, I think parenting should be one of them.

Blue Ring
wrote on November 18 2009 @ 09:29 pm: [report]

Geez - when I got involved with Neuroscience and mental health research I never realized that my absorbing work and long lab hours contributing to the understanding of debilitating and destructive mental illnesses (leaving me no time to date, let alone parent) made me selfish.

#&@$% schizophrenia research.  I think I’ll go “club hop” and find me a man, and have some kids.  Coz my research and publication legacy and knowing that I am contributing to a better understanding of the human mind just seems so EMPTY without kids.  I mean *realllly* what kind of legacy am I leaving?

Or not.  Seriously - have children if you want them, don’t if you’d prefer not to.  I don’t care if your career is Aids curing super scientist or being Dita Von Teese if you find it deeply fulfilling and leaving you with no time to parent and no desire to…YOU AREN’T SELFISH. PERIOD. 

If you enjoy having kids - mazel tov.  I’m glad it’s working out for you.  How insulted would you be if I insinuated your life would have to be horribly empty and worthless when “all you’re doing” is raising the next generation of McDonalds employee or middle management while *I* am oh so busy doing super science and ANYONE who doesn’t TOTALLY DIG spending 16 hours in the lab MUST have a GIGANTIC gaping void in their meaningless and selfish lives?

CheezeDoodles
wrote on November 21 2009 @ 05:33 am: [report]

@Sadie:  BRAVO, lady!  BRAVO!!!!!

I know exactly how you feel…and every now and then, I’ll get some ass who accuses me of “being selfish” in not wanting to have kids.  It’s often said by people who have children who really wish they didn’t, OR if they had it to do all over again, they wouldn’t.

You damn right I’m selfish!  What money, time, and heart I don’t spend on a kid, I give to my boyfriend.  My ex-husband and I were of the same mind as well; he didn’t want kids (and of all people on the planet, he is the last person who should be a father to anything, even a cactus).

I got my tubes tied when I was about 27; I’m 35 now.  I had people telling me I’d change my mind, that I’d regret it, yadda, yadda, yadda.  When all the other girls in high school were making lists of what they wanted for their Sweet Sixteen birthdays, I was the only one who ever piped up and said I wanted a hysterectomy. 

I’ve never, ever felt the pang some women feel about having babies.  That part of female DNA never got encoded on me, and I’m glad.

When I moved here many years ago and started seeing a new GYN, my first question to him was, “will you tie my tubes?”  He was knocked back, and he freely admitted he didn’t have any 25 year-old patients who asked that question.  He told me he’d do it, but he asked that I be his patient for two years before he’d do the procedure.  I wasn’t thrilled at his making me wait, but he kept his word.  Some doctors won’t do it at all unless you’ve already had kids, have some health issue, or unless you’re past a certain age.  I’m thankful my doc did it at all.  I really didn’t think I’d find one who would, given that I was still pretty young then.

Do I like kids? Yeah, in small doses.  What do I like about kids?  The fact that I can give them back to their parents!

My ex-husband and I took in his little sister for a time when she was 15 because she and her mother were getting into physical fights.  Never having been parents, my ex and I went through a real baptism by fire with her.  But amazingly enough, we enjoyed the time she stayed with us (nearly a year), and she straightened up, so we did something right.  And though I loved her to pieces, I was glad to send her back home to her mama where she belonged.

That was all the time I needed to cement it that I didn’t want to be a parent to anything more than my cat.  It isn’t that I couldn’t handle the responsibility.

It’s that I choose NOT TO have that responsibility in the first place.

GypsyQueen
wrote on November 21 2009 @ 12:03 pm: [report]

I’ve not read all the comments yet, but I just wanted to add that I’m not sure if I want children. I love kids, but I love being able to give them back at the end of the day. Of course, I’m still quite young, so maybe that’ll change eventually… And if it does, then yeah, I’m probably going to try getting pregnant and giving birth, because there’s something about the idea of carrying my boyfriend’s/husband’s child inside me that appeals to me. But, y’know, time will tell.

sammyisadog
wrote on November 22 2009 @ 03:31 pm: [report]

Although I am in every way capable of physically having children, I’m really very passionate about adoption.  Also, I am revolted by the thought of pregnancy.  I have a little trouble being excited for other people when they are pregnant, because I think it’s awful.  My lady friends tell me that this means that I am not a nurturing person; however, I have worked with small children, teens, and animals for my entire adult life, and I feel like I have a firmer grasp of what it takes to raise a child and keep a kid on a healthy, productive path for this experience.  I want a large family - ideally, I would like to have four children someday.  I do not have even the slightest desire to physically produce them. 

Why do my own progressive, intellectual, well-educated friends think that this makes me in some way frigid?  Insight, anyone?

CheezeDoodles
wrote on November 22 2009 @ 11:55 pm: [report]

@Sammy:  the thought of pregnancy grosses me out, too.  Though it’s natural and all that, it still sounds alien and disgusting to me.

I don’t get excited for expectant parents, either.  I’ll say the right words and ask the polite questions, but inside, I find myself at a loss to even simulate excitement.

There are many, many children out there who need homes where they are wanted, loved, cared for, and appreciated.  If adoption speaks to you that much, then follow your heart and screw what social mores say you should do.  You’re not frigid at all, but you recognize that you don’t think the way society is trying to dictate that you should.

So long as you love and care for the child you have, how it got here is of no consequence.  Those educated friends lack the ability to see more than one angle.  You obviously do not.

Best wishes to you. 

sammyisadog
wrote on November 23 2009 @ 08:37 pm: [report]

That is very sweet, @Cheezedoodles.  Thanks for the warm message!

Oreo
wrote on November 24 2009 @ 06:11 pm: [report]

More manufactured fake outrage.

This is the most ridiculous debate taking place in the world at this moment.

If you want kids, have them.
If you don’t want kids, don’t have them.

If you think pregnancy is “awful”, keep it to yourself.
If you think childless women are not fulfilling their role as a mother, keep it to yourself.

This is such a non-issue, it’s ridiculous.

landesign
wrote on November 24 2009 @ 06:52 pm: [report]

@Oreo….....ditto

leni
wrote on November 26 2009 @ 08:47 am: [report]

If I had a dollar for everytime I heard a parent say, “I love my kids…...BUT, if I could do it over again, I wouldn’t”, I’d be rich as Oprah!

lawyrgrl
wrote on November 28 2009 @ 09:13 am: [report]

@Oreo and Landesign   I agree that it may not be an issue for everyone.  However, for women between 25 and 45 who have no children, it is an ever-present, damned near daily issue.  Ask yourself what questions you ask a person when you first meet them.  Is one of them “So, do you have kids?”  I will assume that you are not so unkind as to follow up a negative response with “Really?  Why not?” but you would be in the minority.  And if the questioner is a parent, particularly if it is a woman, usually there follows a litany of how she did not understand the meaning of life until she had her children. 

The listener then has the choice of nodding and smiling, thereby remaining socially acceptable, or ending the barrage with a well-chosen comment which will inevitably cause offense to the parent who was “only trying to help!  How rude!!!”  Nice choice.  Especially for women who wanted nothing more than to be a parent but could not.  Sure you could tell this stranger your reproductive history but why should you have to relive it all just to get her to stop urging you to embrace the possibility of motherhood?  It is cruel and unnecessary.  You are fortunate to have it be a “non-issue” in your life.

Oreo
wrote on November 30 2009 @ 02:08 pm: [report]

Social norms exist.  When you choose to do something that violates social norms, you are choosing to accept tht you will be met with a degree of opposition.

In this case, the opposition is mildly annoying at worst.  It seems to me that becoming an advocate for childless women (support websites, lists, story telling and other such nonsense to justify your decision to each other) turns a mildly annoying social reaction into a much larger stress than it has to be.

In other words, why make a mountain out of a molehill?  People are annoying and nosy in all sorts of ways.  Why take this one VERY minor inconvenience and make it into a crusade?  Who cares?

damnedcat
wrote on December 1 2009 @ 04:12 pm: [report]

what a completely self-absorbed list of “reasons” not to have a kid. i respect women’s and couples’ rights to remain childless, but hopefully they have better reasons than “the only thing i want coming out of my vagina is my period” and a need to drink, smoke and screw 24/7. frisky, you portray your readership such a bad light.

MistressTouch
wrote on December 3 2009 @ 09:51 am: [report]

I see nothing wrong with a woman being a bit self-absorbed. With women paying the price for the last million or so years, being able to decide if we do or do not want children is wonderful.

Beyond the lists of awful things that children can bring upon you there are positive things too. Let me warn you however…

If you are unsure if you really want to be a mother, don’t do it. Having a baby is not going to magically make you mommy of the year. Matter of fact if you do not enjoy the experience, if you do not love your child, or if you do not enjoy being a mommy you will spend the rest of your days trying to figure out what is wrong with you. Society will not listen to you if you say you do not enjoy motherhood. You will be pressured to say how much you love your children even if it is a lie.

The beauty of husbands is you can divorce them, you can choose which one you will marry. Children you do not get to choose. You get what you get, if your child’s personality conflicts with yours then you are stuck with that child, indefinitely.

Those who want to mother children should have the right to do so. Those who do not care to mother should be allowed to label themselves “providers” or non-parents and be respected for their decision. Not every woman aspires to make babies, and if you are one of these women, DO NOT let society, your mother, your husband or anyone else force you to do it. It will not change the way you view children it will only add to your stresses and responsibilities.

Having a child changed nothing for me. I absolutely dislike being a mother. I have one child who is 12 now. Not a single part of his raising has been enjoyable for me. He is a good kid, and I love him in a biologically but disconnected kind of way. This has not been the best situation for me or him but at least I provide well for him and I surround myself with nurturing personalities that can provide the love and affections he needs to flourish. I would much rather be at work.

You can criticize me all your want. I realize that society prescribes that all mothers love their children, but the reality is that not all women are cut out to be mommies. We should celebrate the nurturing mothers and respect and honor the providing women. Perhaps our society’s idea of a one man one woman household is flawed. Maybe we should live in multiple partner units where we can have a nurturer and several providers in a large home. Makes a lot more sense to me.

Keep you children and your romantic lies. Look at yourself and ask yourself if you WANT to be a mother. If not, don’t do it. You will regret it.

damnedcat
wrote on December 3 2009 @ 03:28 pm: [report]

As I said, I respect a woman’s right to choose whether or not to have children. It’s not the right to choose that I find self-absorbed - it’s things like mojitos and Amy Winehouse that I find to be shallow, ridiculous reasons to choose not to have a child. Of course, that is the point of the article - total frivolity. As another poster said, the comments are much more thought-provoking than the actual article.

“The beauty of husbands is you can divorce them.”

That’s the beauty of husbands, really? With all due respect, that sad attitude is probably why many people find themselves in tough parenting situations to begin with. When the going gets tough, they get divorced, thus permanently dissolving a partnership that can help children grow up in a stable environment.

I’m not advocating staying in loveless, hopeless, or violent marriages. I am advocating putting more thought into marriage than “Well, I can always divorce him if it doesn’t work out.”

myusualhijinx
wrote on December 3 2009 @ 09:17 pm: [report]

It’s no more fair to call the child-free selfish than it is to call parents selfish, one could argue that the child-free want to avoid responsibility and spend their money on frivolity, while those that choose to have kids add to a sky-high population (among other world problems) for the intrinsically selfish purpose of perpetuating their own genetic information. This is a seriously divisive issue, obviously, and I totally respect everyone’s right to choose. But the list itself, not to be taken seriously of course, doesn’t have any substantial reasons not to reproduce. Seems like they were trying to be funny, and ended up pissing off a lot of defensive, if not slightly insecure folks. Nobody has to justify why they choose kids or not. You do you, I’ll do me.

lawyrgrl
wrote on December 4 2009 @ 10:33 am: [report]

@MistressTouch Thank you for your post.  I applaud your honesty and ability to assess yourself in a blunt and straightforward manner.  That is something many people are sorely lacking.  I strongly suspect that your situation is not unusual in the least but that women are too fearful of a backlash to express their true feelings.  You have my admiration and respect.

violetxrain
wrote on December 5 2009 @ 12:23 am: [report]

I don’t worry about people judging me for not having children. I’m only 22, but I always felt that I would never have children because that’s just not the life I want.
when I was a little girl I felt like having children was something I had to do eventually to fulfill some sort of social requirement. This terrified me and upset me almost everyday and I never really talked about it. Eventually I discovered that I had a choice and since then my mind has been made up.
The only people that ever have a problem with it seems to be women with children. To me it just makes it look like they resent their responsibilities due to the choice they made.

deegee
wrote on December 6 2009 @ 12:27 pm: [report]

Oreo, what you call a “minor inconvenience” is hardly that if you read about how some of the others here are badly treated for their decision to be childfree.

Why should we give a pass to those who belittle those in a minority group just because they are not in that group?  Should we give whites a pass to be rude to blacks?  Should we give straights a pass to be rude to gays?  Should we give theists a pass to be rude to atheists?

Instead, Oreo, you should be telling the childed to stop belittling the childfree for their decision to be childfree.  Tell THEM to stop bingoing the childfree with their insulting remarks.  Tell TEHM to stop treating the childfree like second-class people.  Tell THEM to stop telling the childfree to “sit down and shut up” when they complain about the childed worsening their lives with their out-of-control bratty kids.

GirlyGirl
wrote on December 6 2009 @ 03:54 pm: [report]

I’d be more upset if I couldn’t have a puppy.  I used to be a teacher, so as for kids…I am really not that interested.

SugarStarzKill
wrote on December 6 2009 @ 09:07 pm: [report]

This is post got crazy! I was bored and read all the comments. I believe that people who love and want kids, then great! Have kids! If you don’t more power to you! I myself do NOT want kids. I am only 24 but I am certain it is just not for me.

That being said, I wish parents had to prove they could care for a child. Financially and emotionally, and they should have the appropriate knowledge. It will never happen because all that free rights crap. =)

But seriously, It is really disturbing to me that I know numerous people who have children (whether they want them or not)that cannot care for them. They get deeply discounted housing ($18 a month for a 2 bedroom apartment, in one case, food, a local program donates cars, healthcare, and even assistance with school. And these numerous terrible parents I know usually pawn their kids off on other family members while smoking pot and playing video games all day.

Meanwhile, I BUST MY ASS, working 50 plus hours a week, going to school full time on the Dean’s list, yet I can barely afford to live. It is BS. Some people deserve the help, but there are too many who abuse it and it pisses me off to no end. So as a few commenters said a long while back, yes, the childless DO pay for the breeders everyday.

skywalk
wrote on December 7 2009 @ 09:56 am: [report]

I’m personally glad there is a change in attitude about having kids.  Back when my mother was born not only did almost all women who could get pregnant have babies but they would have large families as well 6-13 kids.  If we continued at that pace we would use and abuse this planet to the point of no return.  The other reason is if you don’t want kids you shouldn’t have them period, an on a previous post a women posted her experience of not really being into being a mom.  Even though it sounds like she is surrounding him with other loving family members,it is not going to change the fact this child is going to have issue due to the fact his mom is stand offish with him, there is no way around.
I have a daughter I love with all my heart and soul and would do it again because I think she is such an awesome person but I’m glad I only had one and I would advice a friend who wasn’t into it a 100% not to have children until they are ready.  Its just not fair to the kids!  I love my daughter and think I do the best job I can and a much better job them some but I am always beating myself up because I know I’m just not the mothering type, I’m a great aunt and love kids but I guess I’m just not able to give it my all!

sweet nothing
wrote on December 7 2009 @ 05:13 pm: [report]

It’s amazing how nasty this post became.  The bottome line should have been, if you want children have them, if not, don’t.  Instead it is parents have dirty puked on, pooped on clothes in their closets, should have to prove they can support children before they are legally allowed to have them and should adopt instead of procreating.  Never mind that it’s no one’s business whether someone has children or adopts. 

To the posters who believe you pay for the “breeders”, you don’t pay for this breeder.  We pay our own way. Our kids do get what they need because we’re good parents and sacrifice our wants for their needs.  The problem is not those who have one or two children, it’s the Duggar’s, Jon and Kate’s of the world who are the overpopulation problem. 

I will never understand why women feel the need to tear each other apart over this kind of thing.  It shouldn’t be happening but there will always be that one who starts an argument about how their life is so much better without children or the one who says it’s selfish not to have children.  Live and let live needs to get practiced a lot more.

FELICITY
wrote on December 7 2009 @ 09:50 pm: [report]

I have no children but I have plenty of friends who share their heartbreak with me. Children can be mean and selfish also.
No thanks I did my time raising sisters because the mother in my life saw children as a meal ticket and a way out of the work force. She was lazy.
I’m afraid I broke her heart too.  I couldnt keep up with her constant demands and expectations. Many times I’ve wished I had never been born.
  I am also a retired teacher and had encountered many parents who shouldnt have had children. You cant cover-up those mistakes with cupcakes. Lots of people should never be parents, they try to hide this fact with smiles and statements like “the best thing that ever happen to me” but eventually the secrets out and hearts and lives are broken.
It pure religious/cultural hype… children make your life better. Misery loves company.

MintJulep
wrote on December 8 2009 @ 12:02 am: [report]

@ CheezeDoodles OMG!! We’re on the same page. 
Although I am “happy” for expectant parents, I really don’t get it.  Aside from losing my figure, I’d prob get stretchmarks,a possible loss of libido, depression, leaky bigger breasts, soggy smaller breasts, hair loss, a baby daddy I hate, a bigger nose, etc.  Why should I want something so needy bursting out of my vajayjay, keeping me up for months, and then grow up to be a possible menace.  Society is not exactly an apple orchard, so I can do without.  I’m 31 years old and I wanna keep giving my love to my cat Murphy.

deegee
wrote on December 8 2009 @ 09:03 am: [report]

Sweet Nothing, I find it hard to believe the rest of us are not subsidizing your lifestyle choice to breed in some way.

Do your kids attend public schools?  If so, thank us CF for paying for those schools through our property taxes.

Are you taking any income tax credits for your kids?  If so, thank us CF for paying more taxes than you simply because you bred.

Are you getting employer-subsidized health insurance for your kids?  If so, then thank your CF coworkers for being a lesser burden on your company so it can spend more money on your family simply because you bred.  That money could be more equitably spent on ALL of its employees, not just those who bred.

Are you taking a tax deduction for your out-of-pocket health care expenses for your kids?  If you are, thank us CF for paying more taxes to make up for your tax break (akin to the one above) simply because you bred.

These are examples of more subtle ways the CF pay for the breeders simply because they bred.

alexandriajane22
wrote on December 9 2009 @ 10:16 am: [report]

eh…i’m on the fence about kids. my mother was amazing - she never loss her sense of “self”, always was into fashion/working out/music/partying, and still was the best mother i could ever imagine. we have a bond that can’t be explained. i’m a junior in college and i still call her three times a day just to talk and vent about my day. i see this kind of example and it makes me want to have a bond with my child one day like this (adopted or otherwise)...but then i read comments and lists like these and i become completely scared off. i have plenty of time to figure it all out, but i hope no matter what i decide i’ll find a balance that suits ME.

generwhite
wrote on December 9 2009 @ 09:03 pm: [report]

I want to have babies.

lovely_j
wrote on December 11 2009 @ 02:33 pm: [report]

My reason: Because the likelihood of my husband and I divorcing increases by a significant margin if we have children (nearly 50%). I really enjoy my marriage and our close bond. Honestly, I don’t envision a marriage where I should have to argue about who’s going to take the kids to soccer practice. We should both keep our independence to some degree to relieve the stress on our marriage. I need someone to travel with, bond with and spend the rest of my life with. Raising kids is quite fleeting, as they leave after 18 years. A lover and best friend is for life.

dizzy
wrote on December 11 2009 @ 02:36 pm: [report]

I am concerned about passing my mental illness down to my children, if I have them.

iCandy
wrote on December 13 2009 @ 04:40 pm: [report]

I’m 20, and my SO and I both want 1 kid, MAYBE 2. But, I’m not ashamed to admit that at this point in my life, I like sleeping, would rather buy stuff for me, like going out, staying out, doing whatever whenever, I am not at all fond of crying or bratty children, I dread PTA meetings and the task of raising a child to be well rounded and not end up on drugs or in prison is a daunting one. As well, I’m bi-polar and have a lot of anxiety, and a lot of simple things drive me up the wall. I don’t want kids right NOW, but I plan to give myself 5-10 years to keep maturing, and to work the partying and the selfishness out of my system before I have a child, and thankfully, my SO is okay with it.

symone
wrote on December 13 2009 @ 09:04 pm: [report]

There isn’t a maternal bone in my body (or I would like to think so).  Its not selfish to not want kids. There are too many women out there who are focused on other things, (like, y’know, careers), and there are people (like me) who simply don’t have the patience.

As much as I hate to admit (and every time I do, I get eaten alive by people who don’t agree)...I “severely dislike” kids.  Didn’t even like myself until I was about 16 or 17 (I was told that was normal, but Ive been screaming “no kids” since I was 10).  I wouldn’t babysit my own cousins without pay. My personal list includes:

*The crying of babies drives me nuts, so what if my kid had colic? 
*I don’t like wiping other peoples asses, give a damn if I created it. I have an issue with bodily fluids, including my own. 
*I have a bit of a temper and children talking back to me would flare it. 
*Hemophilia runs in my family with much frequency, so what happens if my son has it?
*What if I have a girl? Ewww!! Refer to the body fluids comment.
*I know what I used to do as a teenager (and I was a good kid). 
*Like a previous comment said: Episiotomy. *shudders* My mother to this day tells me that I ripped her from hole to hole and she can still feel it on a cold day. Um…yikes!?

I simply couldn’t handle the stress. I know I’m still young and it seems like I’m just making excuses for myself, but I know how I am, and I think its better that I realize this now than later when its too late. I’m sure that childbearing has its perks (like tax incentives), but I realize that lifestyle isn’t for me (or everyone), and to call people selfish for thinking that way (even though there maybe some truth to that) is wrong and unfair.

chillwill
wrote on December 13 2009 @ 10:04 pm: [report]

I could certainly understand not wanting to have children ever for whatever reason.  However the reasons listed in the actual article are pretty silly.

I know plenty of couples who maintain very, healthy, exciting and spontaneous lifestyle even after having their second child.

Those couples who think they retreated into a life of boredom were probably boring and dull to begin with.  The only difference now is that they are blaming their dull unexciting lives on their children.

skywalk
wrote on December 14 2009 @ 10:22 am: [report]

@iCandy I think you are being mature and unselfish by waiting.  I think anyone who feels they are either not ready or not sure if they want kids are really thinking of the child/children.  “the task of raising a child to be well rounded and not end up on drugs or in prison is a daunting one” I have a 16 YO and it is daunting.  If you are not fully vested in having a child it is selfish to have one!

sparklestar
wrote on December 14 2009 @ 10:53 am: [report]

How do I stop notifications to this topic? Listening to people endlessly justifying their side is becoming tiresome.

cookiemonster123
wrote on December 14 2009 @ 10:56 pm: [report]

So many reasons not to have babies… and I especially agree with #5 & #7! I can drink when I want! And have sex when I want too!

staciarain
wrote on December 15 2009 @ 10:24 pm: [report]

I want to have kids, just not anytime soon (I’m only sixteen). I’d rather wait a good twenty years, after I’ve travelled and partied and spent days and nights doing whatever I please. There are going to be downsides, yeah - I have a two year old sister, I see it all happening with my mom - but I’m okay with that. I can’t imagine never having kids.

peachesncream
wrote on December 19 2009 @ 05:24 pm: [report]

The most important thing is that women make the decision that is right for them, without considering any external pressures. I don’t believe that having children simply because that is what women do is a good enough reason. To become a parent is to make a lifelong commitment to your child - to encourage their growth, maturity, and emotional development from the time of birth and onward. Raising a child is a serious business. Don’t let anyone’s judgment of your decision influence you.

I know I’m only 22. I don’t have the experience to speak to what it is like to raise children. I CAN vouch for the dangers of bad parenting though. My mom and my dad were married, and, having children was merely the next step after marriage for her. My father was ready, but she was never in the frame of mind to be a mother. It was selfish of her to have had children when she was not invested in being a mother. My father is a wonderful father though, and compensated in so many ways. The point is, if you don’t want to become a parent, please don’t. Your children won’t appreciate it.

As well, in my own life I have met so many kind, caring, absolutely fabulous women, many of whom are not themselves mothers. They are special simply by virtue of who they are. I should hope that no one would ever judge the merit of a person by whether or not they chose to have children. Those who do judge you on this basis are not worth your time!